[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Shirley, that favorite line came after the Lannister family "reunion" and before Tyrion's road trip. Thus, is wasn't cut out of this season, but is still to come. Speaking of waiting years for the events we know are to happen--IMNSHO opiion the books can be significantly compressed. Once story lines are left out, the action of the main characters is somewhat repetitive and unnecessary and HBO could cut to the chase in several ways. Is HBO and the audience really prepared to continue for 5+ years?

I sure am! There will be storylines kept out, as they did with the whole Tullyfamily in Season 2. But that's not a problem if you ask me; they will find a solution. I mean; the world of Westeros is really big, with so many characters and stories and POV's, they can't tell every storyline. Oh well, as long as they stick somewhat to the books..

[Harrad]

I sure am! .. Oh well, as long as they stick somewhat to the books..

OK. Its possible...look at Harry Potter...I just pity Hodor having to carry a 6 foot tall 250 lb Bran.

[Harimad]

Shirley, that favorite line came after the Lannister family "reunion" and before Tyrion's road trip. Thus, is wasn't cut out of this season, but is still to come. Speaking of waiting years for the events we know are to happen--IMNSHO opiion the books can be significantly compressed. Once story lines are left out, the action of the main characters is somewhat repetitive and unnecessary and HBO could cut to the chase in several ways. Is HBO and the audience really prepared to continue for 5+ years?

sorry, correction on my part. My favorite line/scene that was cut was when Catelyn says Jaime has shit for honor and kicks over the bucket in his cell. I wasn't clear on that. As for the years comment, perhaps that was taken slightly too literally. With the way this season has zoomed through, I think we will see a lot happen and get accomplished in season 3

[Leuf]

It's not a contradiction, at all, unless you take Ygritte's words extremely literally.

Ser, I concede to your superior pigheadedness and name thee Lord Paramount of the argument, titles, titles...

[Harrad]

sorry, correction on my part. My favorite line/scene that was cut was when Catelyn says Jaime has shit for honor and kicks over the bucket in his cell. I wasn't clear on that. As for the years comment, perhaps that was taken slightly too literally. With the way this season has zoomed through, I think we will see a lot happen and get accomplished in season 3

I think it would be a good idea to compress the action in books 3 and 4 at least. After all, what has to be accomplished? Ooops, quite a bit actually. Jon has to finish his ranging, come back, get promoted, and then ? Dany has to go from not much to quite a lot. Arya takes up residence in Bravos. Sansa and Littlefinger to the Aerie (in principle this could be skipped, but whence those two?). The Red Wedding of course. The Addamms (er...Lannister) family reunion. Stannis fights another day and another day. Will the Dorne subplot remain?

No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.

[Harimad]

_

_{I think it would be a good idea to compress the action in books 3 and 4 at least. After all, what has to be accomplished? Ooops, quite a bit actually. Jon has to finish his ranging, come back, get promoted, and then ? Dany has to go from not much to quite a lot. Arya takes up residence in Bravos. Sansa and Littlefinger to the Aerie (in principle this could be skipped, but whence those two?). The Red Wedding of course. The Addamms (er...Lannister) family reunion. Stannis fights another day and another day. Will the Dorne subplot remain?}

_{No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.}

_{much of Jon's story beyond the wall can probably be compressed... argue with Rattleshirt, do Ygritte, chat with Mance, wallow in self-loathing blah...blah...blah...}

_{I really hope the Dorne plot comes along, I'd love to see Dorne and the sandsnakes}

_{Dany can go to the seven hells as long as she doesn't take Jorah as far as I'm concerned. They should just recap her taking over Atapor etc. and freeing slaves. Reading that was like wearing a rat-bucket.}

I thought the people who didn't know were being sarcastic?

Edited May 23, 2012 by Harimad

[Harrad]

_{much of Jon's story beyond the wall can probably be compressed... argue with Rattleshirt, do Ygritte, chat with Mance, wallow in self-loathing blah...blah...blah...}

...

_{Reading that was like wearing a rat-bucket.}

I like your slash and burn attitude. Add to Jon escape, get elected Chief, and then get offed..or does he. This brings up the question: Is GRRM a democrat (small d). Maybe the Nights' Watch and the Wildlings being the only popularly elected entities will prevail.

[ipsuel]

<snip>

No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.

Haven't read the whole thread, only last page -- but I assume you mean c*nt... it seemed to be the word of the week

[Impish]

Great episode... Dragonglass! Jon/Halfhand collusion! Winterfell Crypts! (how exactly...? oh well) Jamie/Brienne! Arya's 3rd name!

I did miss Weasel Soup... but seriously, throwing soup on some guards is not critical to the plot. What's important is how she uses her third name to trick Jaqen into giving her more help than he bargained for, leading (with a few more steps in the book of course) to their escape from Harrenhal.

I am starting to wonder now if one reason for the Jeyne => Talissa switch was so that she can flesh out some backstory on the slavery situation in the east, as setup for Dany's city-stomping "free the slaves" rampage after she leaves Qarth.

[Harrad]

Yes. I thought so too...until the earlier rants on "idiot." I'll take a c*nt over an idiot anytime.

[Harrad]

I am starting to wonder now if one reason for the Jeyne => Talissa switch was so that she can flesh out some backstory on the slavery situation in the east, as setup for Dany's city-stomping "free the slaves" rampage after she leaves Qarth.

Thats a good point, and there still could be a later reveal that she is from the Crag. I thought her unwillingness to meet the Maester from there was because he would know her.

[Ghost714]

David Benioff and D B Weiss actually said they are going to try and do nine seasons. As the books get bigger, they said they aren't going to focus on doing one book per season. They said they were just going to try and tell GRRM's story in nine seasons, however that might happen. So certain books maybe two seasons, and others only one. They may even do one book over a season and a half. Their main "goal" is just to tell GRRM's story, with what time they have.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

Saw the last ep a few days ago, but it's been a busy week so I haven't had time to put down some random thoughts until now.

• Asha/Yaya/whatever her name is on HBO, is still an unsympathetic bitch, not at all like the character I thought from the books. Theon might be an incompetent brat, but why knowingly undermine him in front of others?
  
• For that matter, what is the goal of the Iron Islanders? They don't want to stray too far away from water, so they shouldn't be much of a threat to others than people living by the shore. They can't, or don't even want to, make a continental realm.
  
• Unlike in the book, we now already learn that Bran and Rickon are alive. Why not keep that reveal until the last ep?
  
• Neat little exposition scene between Stannis and Davos, explaining the background for the Union Knight.
  
• I was expecting that Ros would be used as the "decoy whore", but what's stopping her from revealing that she's not Tyrion's whore? Have they made an arrangement?
  
• Season 2 Cersei is more like the Cersei i imagined. Lena Headey nails it better this time around.
  
• I LOVED the scenes between Varys and Tyrion. "Imagine Stannis' terror." "I am trying." Heh! Those two would be very competent rulers if there was a king (or queen) who'd let them. I think they (and Conleth Hill and Peter Dinklage) are my favourites, despite me being a Stark sympathizer.
  
• So Arya tricks Jaqen into helping them escape, rather than having the Lannister garrison overthrown. So she won't meet Roose Bolton. Not really surprising since that would have been repetitive.
  
• There's slow going north of the Wall. Nothing much happens except Jon meeting an equally captive Halfhand. And they're setting up Jon's fake betrayal, so at least there's that.
  
• And Sam find some dragonglass... Yay!
  
• Dany is still screaming about destroying everything. She needs to calm down if she's going to be a believable ruler/warlord that gathers power in Essos. So far we haven't seen much of that. Bad directing.
  
• Now I'm starting to think (again) that Talisa isn't Jeyne, but just Talisa, now that she's told an extensive backstory. I find it hard to believe that she later could reveal a Westerling identity and have Robb accept it and still marry/remain married to her.
  
• But man, she's beautiful. And she has a nice bum!
  
• It was expected that they'd let Jaime escape this season instead of the next. But Cat didn't tag along in the beginning. I'm disappointed that she did it without knowledge of the deaths of Bran and Rickon (even if that would have been in error). That would have made her decision a little bit more understandable.
  
• I'm disappointed about the lack of a Hound/Sansa scene. There hasn't been enough buildup of that to make his visit to her chambers during the battle believable enough.
  
• Still, all in all, I really liked this episode. It was much better than the last one.
  

[Harrad]

David Benioff and D B Weiss actually said they are going to try and do nine seasons.

Ok...that's a nice goal. However, its kind of like a congressman saying he'd like to serve nine terms. Or like the producers of The Golden Compass saying they'd like to do a trilogy. Things happen.

[Harrad]

Saw the last ep a few days ago, but it's been a busy week so I haven't had time to put down some random thoughts until now.

• [*]Asha/Yaya/whatever her name is on HBO, is still an unsympathetic bitch, not at all like the character I thought from the books. Theon might be an incompetent brat, but why knowingly undermine him in front of others?

Don't see the hate for Tonks/Usha. She's beautiful, smart, and loyal to the Starks who treated her well, considering she was about to off Bran.

Letting Jaime go was a brainfart in the book and in the series. So I lay that at GRRM's door. It certainly mixes up the story but there is absolutely no reason for a hardened WarLady to go all self-destructive in that way. Consider these facts:

1. Jaime is the one who tried to kill Bran, and Eddard..he is their worst one-on-one combat foe, and the war is hardly over

2. He is likely to support the bad Lannister faction in Kings Landing if he got there

3. Catelyn doesnt even know if either daughter is in Kings Landing (Arya is not) or even alive.

4. Catelyn's act undermined her firstborn son bigtime

If I were her, I would plead insanity.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

Don't see the hate for Tonks/Usha. She's beautiful, smart, and loyal to the Starks who treated her well, considering she was about to off Bran.

Um, I was talking about Asha Greyjoy (or Yaya, Yara, whatever she's called on TV), not Osha. I quite like Osha (and Natalia Tena).

Hm, I always thought it was a dumb move by HBO to rename the Greyjoy sis to avoid confusiong with Osha. But now I'm not so sure... :unsure:

[Ghost714]

Um, I was talking about Asha Greyjoy (or Yaya, Yara, whatever she's called on TV), not Osha. I quite like Osha (and Natalia Tena).

Hm, I always thought it was a dumb move by HBO to rename the Greyjoy sis to avoid confusiong with Osha. But now I'm not so sure... :unsure:

No it was a dumb move...I don't know how anybody could think you were talking about Osha, she didn't even talk to Theon this episode. You even called her Yaya, which is a lot closer to Yara than Osha. However, considering the poster called her Usha, instead of Osha, I don't know what they were thinking.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Cersei tells Cat that she had a stillborn, on the show, because the show has up until now, portrayed her as less evil than she is. Cat is grieving over Bran, which Cers partially caused. Later, she tells Ned that the one time Robert finished in her, Jaime took care of it. She never lost a baby, she for the most part, aborted a baby.

Something like that. It's been a while since I've read the book, but she definitely doesn't lose Robert's kid...and if she had, she wouldn't have grieved.

Edited May 24, 2012 by chickenly

[GreenDream]

As much as I want to see more Arya, one of the great elements in the development of her character is when she is forced to be a "mouse" in Harrenhall because to be otherwise would mean her death. She has a lot of internal dialogue about no longer being a wolf and I think D&D have portrayed that through her skulking in corners and having little power. She still has a backbone of iron but she has to hide it. Jaqen is the only connection she has to power and I would have to say, she uses that. The scene where she names him gave me chills. All of their interactions together are beautifully done. In my humblest of opinions, I think the portrayal of Arya is spot on, although we don't get some of her more rebellious thoughts spelled out for us. I really was sad that weasel soup didn't make an appearance, but since Weasel was never introduced as part of Yoren & co. and Arya didn't go through her series of fake names etc. that wouldn't have packed quite the same punch in the show. "A girl has no honor."

I agree with most of this, but I was very disappointed when they didn't show Arya kick Hot Pie's butt when he wanted to take her sword. I think that would have set her up to show how tough and spirited she was. It would have lent more to her becoming a "mouse" at Harrenhall. They skipped that part, and her slitting the guard's throat too. And her practicing her "needlework" (which, I felt, showed her holding onto her inner wolf) In my opinion, HBO is trying to make her look more like a weak little girl, than one with juevos. Hopefully they will start showing her transition more. Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I just didn't feel like the changes exactly did her justice. They could have at least put in the scene with Hot Pie, and her doing "needlework". :(

[GreenDream]

I think it would be a good idea to compress the action in books 3 and 4 at least. After all, what has to be accomplished? Ooops, quite a bit actually. Jon has to finish his ranging, come back, get promoted, and then ? Dany has to go from not much to quite a lot. Arya takes up residence in Bravos. Sansa and Littlefinger to the Aerie (in principle this could be skipped, but whence those two?). The Red Wedding of course. The Addamms (er...Lannister) family reunion. Stannis fights another day and another day. Will the Dorne subplot remain? No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.

C u n t . Not sure where the origins of this word come from... but it is one that Martin definitely used in the books repeatedly.

edit to add: I looked it up in wiki.... guess it has been in use since before the 1200's:

Cunt has been in common use in its anatomical meaning since at least the 13th century. While Francis Grose's 1785 A Classical Dictionary of The Vulgar Tongue listed the word as "C**T: a nasty name for a nasty thing",^[19] it did not appear in any major English dictionary from 1795 to 1961, when it was included in Webster's Third New International Dictionary with the comment "usu. considered obscene". Its first appearance in the Oxford English Dictionary was in 1972, which cites the word as having been in use since 1230 in what was supposedly a London street name of "Gropecunte Lane". It was, however, also used before 1230, having been brought over by the Anglo-Saxons, originally not an obscenity but rather a factual name for the vulva or vagina. Gropecunt Lane was originally a street of prostitution, a red light district. It was normal in the Middle Ages for streets to be named after the goods available for sale therein, hence the prevalence in cities having a medieval history of names such as "Silver Street" and "Fish Street".

Edited May 24, 2012 by GreenDream