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Cersei never truly loved Jaime.


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(I haven't actualy got this far in AFfC, but some things were spoiled for me long ago so I don't mind just jumping in here.)

I don't know whether you're right or not about Cersei. Maybe it's a mixture. I do think that Jaime honestly loved Cersei up until a certain point, and probably more than she loved him. It's hard not to feel that all through ASoS when he was trying to get back to her. While Cersei married and slept with other men to get what she wanted, Jaime could never even think of betraying her like that. All Jaime wanted in life was her, and he didn't care what he would have had to give up to marry her and raise their children together. For Cersei, although I do think she had some real feelings for him, their love always had to take a backseat to her ambitions for power and her desire to preserve her self-image. So she probably loved herself more than she loved him.

When Jaime comes back a changed man and their relationship starts to fall apart, I don't think that has to mean he never "really" loved her. Sometimes people change and outgrow each other, and I think he outgrew her. I think in ASoS she began to realize this and I think she felt profoundly spurned and started to turn against him.

But while I do think that these two felt some honest feelings for each other, that "narcissistic masturbatory fantasy" theory rings true to me as well. Jaime thought to himself in ASoS at one point that his appearance had changed to the point that he didn't look as much like Cersei anymore, and that she would hate that. I think feelings are complicated and murky, and love is confusing, and there's probably a combination of things going on between those two.

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Ooh, I also like the discussion about Cersei envying Jaime. I don't think there's any disagreement that if she could, Cersei would have opted to be a man instead of a woman.

She is a real head case, isn't she? A psychologist reading this book could have a field day diagnosing her.

One thing she isn't, I think, is inherently evil. She's self-serving above all, but she doesn't take pleasure in cruelty for its own sake.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Cersei's motivation seems to flow from her need to control everyone & everything around her. I think this comes from a deep feeling of inadequacy (and anger) that she, as a woman in a male dominated society, will never truly control her destiny. As the only daughter of 3 children, she will alway be 'less than' even to a 'deformed' dwarf - witness her father choosing Tyrion (a child he blames for his wife's death) over her to be Hand to her OWN son. Her fantasies are about being so powerful and revered that her name will eclipse even her father's name in history. Everyone will refer to Tywin as the father of Cersei not to Cersei as the daughter of Tywin.

She loves Jaime because she wants to love herself. He is the power she does not have made flesh. When she's inside him she is him, she controls him and she feeds her need for that power, self-love & approval she so desperately craves. As was said above, she loves Jaime because he is the male Cersei. Now that Jaime is maimed, I don't think she can stand to look at his imperfection because she must then face her own imperfection. She cannot love a 'maimed' version of herself. However, she still calls on him in her hour of need. Why?

a) Maybe he is that last vestige of her connection to the perceived power she had when she was with him and that's the power she hopes to regain.

B) Maybe she's relying on the Lannister's creed that they always look out for their own no matter what.

c) Maybe she thinks she can play on the tight bond they've shared from birth; that he 'owes' her.

d) Maybe within those prison walls she has now reverted to the inadequate girl of her youth. And who does a young girl call when she's in peril but her knight in shining armor.

I think it's a combo of all these & maybe some I haven't thought of.

However, in the beginning I think she did love Jaime but as a little girl loves her knight in shining armor. I think she started out much as Sansa did: the doe-eyed innocent. Rhaegar fell into that same 'knight-in-shining armor' category as did Robert in the beginning. Sadly she got a rude awaking at the hand of Robert's cruelty. Now she's very jaded. There is no love within her anymore except for the love of power. As proof, though Jaime remains loyal to her, she does not remain loyal to him. In her current jaded power hungry state, love isn't powerful but sex is. It's all about using someone before they use you.

Thank God she had looks or she would really have been screwed. Even those are going, reference her comment as she was dressing once that her gown was getting tighter.

I really despise her for her actions but I pity her for the twisted psyche that evolved from her circumstances. Nonetheless, she took the easy way out. If she had had strength of character she could have followed the same arc as a Catelyn, an Arya or maybe even a Brienne. What do you think would have happened to Brienne if she had been born with Cersei's looks? An interesting thing to contemplate.

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I'm blanking out on the exact quote, but there's a scene in aCoK where, shortly after returning to King's Landing, Tyrion says to Cersei something along the lines of "I'm not sure what you see in Jaime, besides your own reflection." That about nails it.

That said, I'm a bit disappointed at Cersei's character arc, namely that she's showing herself to be an even nastier person than one might have previously thought. She has no real redeeming qualities left to her, and is sort of losing some depth and dimension.

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  • 3 weeks later...

What was odd about this book was, that unlike ASOS and Jamie's chapters, I never grew to like her or sympathize w/her. In fact I ended up disliking her even more. I think Jamie loved Cersei.....she though I'm not sure if she ever did. He's never slept w/someone else and had plenty of opportunities while she on the other hand sleeps with anyone and everyone she can to get what she wants. I think she was interested in Jamie for as long as she could use him, and once he came back a changed man, she lost interest.

I echo the fact that I ended up disliking her even more after reading her POV chapters. But I'm not anxious to criticize her for sleeping with other people, whereas Jaimie was faithful. It does still say something about the nature of their relationship, but I think its worth remembering that for Cersei (and for many other women) sex = power. Jaimie didn't have to use his sexuality to assert himself. That is to say I don't necessarily blame her for using sex to get what she wants because it's not like she has a lot of other options as a woman in that society.

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However, in the beginning I think she did love Jaime but as a little girl loves her knight in shining armor. I think she started out much as Sansa did: the doe-eyed innocent. Rhaegar fell into that same 'knight-in-shining armor' category as did Robert in the beginning. Sadly she got a rude awaking at the hand of Robert's cruelty. Now she's very jaded. There is no love within her anymore except for the love of power. As proof, though Jaime remains loyal to her, she does not remain loyal to him. In her current jaded power hungry state, love isn't powerful but sex is. It's all about using someone before they use you.

I loved your post as a whole, but this section really grabbed me with the comparison between Cersei and Sansa. Not to take away from the point of the thread, but I'm not sure how to take Sansa and Littlefinger. On the one hand I'm glad Sansa is getting an education in political strategy, but on the other hand, Sansa has had a rude awakening too and I worry that she could very well turn into something like Cersei.

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Sigrid, I have also noticed that similarity between Cersei and Sansa, and hope that Martin won´t follow that path. Cersei dind´t love Jaime, she wanted to be him. That is why she has tried to control him all his life. There was something that she said about Joffrey that when she suckled him, he gave her more pleasure than any lover had done. Her sexuality is very odd. When she is with Taena, she takes the agressive part, but still gets no pleasure from the act. She uses sex as means of control.

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I loved your post as a whole, but this section really grabbed me with the comparison between Cersei and Sansa. Not to take away from the point of the thread, but I'm not sure how to take Sansa and Littlefinger. On the one hand I'm glad Sansa is getting an education in political strategy, but on the other hand, Sansa has had a rude awakening too and I worry that she could very well turn into something like Cersei.

Thank you for your kind comment.

I also am very interested in Sansa's future, I feel that she is at a crossroads. Now that she has flowered she is no longer a girl and Littlefinger by default will have a huge impact on how she develops as a woman. He is just incredibly creepy in the way he interacts with her. I hope there doesn't end up being some sexual trauma.

At any rate, not to get off the topic of the thread as well. Sansa's future is definitely worthy of more discussion. Sigrid, perhaps you could start a new thread about this. :wideeyed:

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Cersei respected men with power. She loved jaime as long as he was the valiant, defiant knight. And I do think they loved each other as they were growing up - something got out of hand there in the absence of the awkwardness that usually accompany opposite-gender siblings after puberty and for their ability to ignore norms.

I think Jaime was the one that truly loved her and the relationship. 'If I were a women, I'd be cersei' he thought because knew himself to be a part of the same being. Cersei also thought 'Id be Jaime if I were a man' but she was thinking what kinds of things she'd be able to pull off if she were him. Therein lies the difference.

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  • 1 year later...

Let's have a look at what we learned from her during A Feast For Crows.

She was in love with Rhaegar Targaryen when all those rumours about her being wed to him were flying around. That wedding would have been excellent for her, Rhaegar being the crown prince and all. She commented on how Jaime looked so boring and simple compared to Rhaegar. Love of her life my ass.

Another example of this was Aurane Waters. As soon as Cersei saw how she had a lot of use for the guy, she began having thoughts of him being 'comely' and that white hair of his reminding her of Rhaegar.

When Robert Baratheon turned out a disappointing husband, that's when her love with Jaime was at its peak. And during her childhood when there was not any other competitor.

She clearly developed 'feelings' only for those she had the most use for, and conveniently rubbished her love for Jaime whenever he did not do something she wanted.

I like your points and agree. it is clear when Jaime was captured and in RR she wanted Jaime freed, but only for her own machinations and not real love. When he returned, she told him point blank she lied to him several times and basically telling him you are only a toy to her for her to use when needed. Myrcella has her mom's beauty, but Jaime's skills at fighting and her uncle's brain (as so far what I can gather from reading) all wrapped up into one. She has the admiration of her betrothed, so she has love if she marries him. Then the game I read she plays got me thinking if she can win act the game what a strategic player she might turn out to be w/o her mother's influence or control she may be the younger more beautiful queen Cersei fears and her twin Jaime is the younger brother. Sorry I know off topic but I was thinking Cersei thinks things to literal and does think beauty could be outer or inner beauty or combo of both. I agree she never loved Jaime probably never even loved him as a brother just wanted him for his skills and how she could use him.

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I agree. You can also see her selfish and callous disregard for Jaime's future when she coerced him into joining the Kingsguard. Something along the lines of "Is it a rock you want, or me?” I mean, if she truly loved him she would see that joining the Kingsguard would cost Jaime his birthright, status, titles etc. etc, but no, all she cared about was keeping him close to fuck.

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Let's have a look at what we learned from her during A Feast For Crows.

She was in love with Rhaegar Targaryen when all those rumours about her being wed to him were flying around. That wedding would have been excellent for her, Rhaegar being the crown prince and all. She commented on how Jaime looked so boring and simple compared to Rhaegar. Love of her life my ass.

Another example of this was Aurane Waters. As soon as Cersei saw how she had a lot of use for the guy, she began having thoughts of him being 'comely' and that white hair of his reminding her of Rhaegar.

When Robert Baratheon turned out a disappointing husband, that's when her love with Jaime was at its peak. And during her childhood when there was not any other competitor.

She clearly developed 'feelings' only for those she had the most use for, and conveniently rubbished her love for Jaime whenever he did not do something she wanted.

I agree. Seems to me she only "loves" him when he does exactly what she says and when she needs him. It's like she's been manipulating him throughout their entire relationship.

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I'm blanking out on the exact quote, but there's a scene in aCoK where, shortly after returning to King's Landing, Tyrion says to Cersei something along the lines of "I'm not sure what you see in Jaime, besides your own reflection." That about nails it.

That said, I'm a bit disappointed at Cersei's character arc, namely that she's showing herself to be an even nastier person than one might have previously thought. She has no real redeeming qualities left to her, and is sort of losing some depth and dimension.

I don't think Cersei's nasty, as much as shallow, unable to feel sympathy and not too bright. She feels sorry for herself. She always sees herself as the victim of men. The world should revolve around her and everyone else is irrelevant. History is the past and doesn't affect her so she ignores it instead of learning from it. People are to be used and abused, unworthy of her notice, (unless handsome) so why should they dislike her? I'm not even sure she loved her children as people, only an extension of herself. As previously mentioned Jaime was like looking in a mirror for her, they even traded places as children. All she is able to see is her own reflection.

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Personally I don't think either loved the other except for what they saw of themself. I think what they both were doing was engaging in the ultimate narcissistic masturbatory fantasy. It's telling they both turned their backs on each other as soon the mirror got tilted.

I completely agree but I would add that I think Jaime's feelings started out a bit more true, so to speak, until he began to see just what Cercei is and what he truly is to her.

There's so much telling I think, especially Cersei's pov. Remember that these two began experimenting very young when they were still so identical they could switch places without people knowing the difference. There's all kinds of quotes that are interesting but two always stick out to me, Cersei first admitting it to Ned

"And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole."

And later Jaime's first thought upon seeing himself after his time in captivity.

"I don’t look as much like Cersei this way. She’ll hate that."

Jaime's such a strange case. A warrior so full of pride and arrogance in everything else yet living this lie all these yearss skulking about behind Robert's back as the coward. I never know what quite to make of it. As much as I think Cersei domintated him I don't think I still fully realize just how much control she had over him.

Yes! Jaime being maimed did so much more to change him than anyone yet realizes. Because it shattered the illusions around him and Cercei (and many of his illusions about himself) it may just turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to him. At least, I hope so ;)

Cersei only truly feels ambition, hate and anger. She says she loves her children but only seems to actively focus on the one with a crown on their head. She used Jaime as a sex toy because he looked like her :ack:

Yeah, I think her so-called love even for her own children ultimately comes from a place of narcissism. That is, I think her concern for them only goes as far as their usefulness to her. After she kills Robert her children are a means for her to rule. I think she even is most put out by Marcella's being sent to Dorne because she wanted to use her to make the political match of her choosing. I believe some of her anger at Tyrion over this is also due to not wanting her daughter to suffer the same fate she did (i.e. being forced into a political marriage) but I don't believe that's the only reason.
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The person who said "ultimate narcissitic masturbatory fantasy" had it right on the money.

Cersei is a textbook case of Narcissistic personality disorder. She fits all the general discriptors to a T. In layman's terms, she is criminally insane even though in today's society she might not necessarily be a criminal.

Here's some basic things about understand Cersei as a narcissist:

1. She hates herself.

All Narcissists, subconsciously, hate themselves. They doubt themselves and are fundamentally insecure. This is why they need the positive self-image to prop themselves up, and need a positive reflection beamed back at them. They simply can't TAKE negative feedback, because they equate it with becoming this awful, degenerate thing. This is true for other personality disorders as well, but in narcissists it manifests itself largely through trying to destroy sources of negative feedback and fostering positive sources, despite what exists in reality.

2. She makes it up as she goes along

When I say 'it' I mean her entire philosophy. This business about her and Jamie being of one body, one mind etc... it's obvious crap. It's a convenient myth they tell themselves, but clearly they're not telepathically linked. The reality is that thier conditions made the situation more than they did, and once those conditions changed... surprise surprise, so did they. This business of being the Lion, of being this, being that, it's all made up things to tell herself so she can make it through the day without admitting weakness. Because she'd crumble otherwise.

3. Her self-image absorbes all her time and interests

She is not curious and is uninterested in the plights of others. This is becuase she needs to devote such time and effort into making herself feel ok, she's mentally exhausted. And she's so caught up in the great drama of her own position she can't possibly fathom what it's like to be anyone else, or that anyone has things worse off than her. If they do, they are promptly ignored or otherwise degraded. Therefore she's very ignorant of facts that are not immediately pertinent. This does NOT mean she is stupid. It means she's ignorant of a lot of things because she's too caught up in her own head. So therefore while she's adequate at grasping petty political complications and seeing enemies in the shadows that sometimes actually ARE there (but most often not), she'd make a TERRIBLE Jeopardy contestant. She can tell you without thinking the major figures in House Tyrell, but she probably couldn't tell you anything about Braavos other than it has an iron bank.

4. She only looks up to remote superiority

This is Tywin to a 'T', but Cersei is a living embodiement of 'familiarity breeds contempt'. She adored Rhaegar because he was socially superior to her and she didn't know him well. She could project anything she liked onto him, and him being attractive certainly didn't hurt. Had she married him it would have been little better than the one she wound up with. Within months she would have seen Rhaegar as imperfect and begun deconstructing him. Even in the height of her relationship with Jamie, she tends to treat him as inferior. This is the conondrum of the narcissist: they see things better than themselves, so they seek to gain those things or embody them. The differences between them are seen as positive. Then once they get to know that person, that person starts to show feelings towards them and get close. BUT: as per #1, the narcissist hates themselves. So, ergo in the subconscious, if this person now sees me as an equal, then they must not be all that great because I'M unlikable. So based on that, they devalue that which they once desired, until they have need for it again. Once the person in question pulls back and wisely distances themselves, then in the subconscious eyes of the narcissist they have wisely asserted their innate superiority, seen the narcissist for the lesser person that they are, and so become desirable again.

And on it goes. If you're competent, the less accepting you are of them, the more they want you. The more accepting you are of them, the less they care.

"What shall we do to fill the empty spaces / Where waves of hunger gnaw? / Shall we set out across this sea of faces / In search of more and more applause?"

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I think Cersei genuinely loves Jaime. It's a twisted, narcissist, unhealthy relationship, of course. But that doesn't mean she doesn't love him.

I'm not putting Cersei's desire for other men, as well as acting on it as a sign of her not loving Jaime. Love doesn't shut down a person's desire for other people, and people can have sex with someone while being in love with another person. It's not "true love" in the Disney sense, but that kind of "true love" a modern fairy tale, not the more realistic (ok, sans the incest part) type of relationship GRRM tries to write.

As for her being disenchanted of Jaime after he returns... well, that also happens. People meet, idealize the other person, fall in love and, after some time goes by, the idealized image fades away. Reality takes it's place and some people get disappointed. I think it as a woman (or man for that matter, but let's go with a woman since it's a woman character we are talking about) falling in love for a seductive guy, starting a relationship and, as time goes by, the guy grows a belly, doesn't act as seductively anymore, etc. The relationship changes, and both people would be susceptible to other, seductive, people. Jaime starts to develop feelings for Brienne, Cersei lusts over Aurane, sleeps with other men, etc.

But I think they still love each other, even if they have become an ex-couple of sorts.

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