Darth Rivers Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Ending a sentient life is probably the single most difficult action to justify morally. I feel that it can be justified, but as a general rule I'd say virtually all killing in ASoIaF is, at the very least, questionable.Why does something need justification? That said, the two most common reasons to kill someone:1. In battle - exterminating your enemy.2. Whenever you have something to gain.Both are perfectly justifiable. Especially when you consider that there is no justice system in Westeros, really. Most of the time you can get away with killing people easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Why does something need justification? That said, the two most common reasons to kill someone:1. In battle - exterminating your enemy.2. Whenever you have something to gain.Both are perfectly justifiable. Especially when you consider that there is no justice system in Westeros, really. Most of the time you can get away with killing people easily.Yeah, that's great, you're amoral. Others aren't, and thus have different views from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddward Stark Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I don't see how Sansa can be blamed for Ned's death. Wouldn't he have been killed by Joffrey even if he hadn't confessed? Nearly everyone thought that Ned's life would be saved if he confessed. Thus many tried to make that happen, including Varys, likely Cersei (she was regent, so she may have had some say), and also Sansa. Ned also made the choice to confess, and he could be held accountable for his own death, except for the fact that....There are those who actually caused his death: Joffrey, and likely as a result of Littlefinger's suggestion.Also, Sansa can't truly be said to have killed Marillion. She may have been able to change the circumstances of his death by speaking up, but killing him? And killing Ned? Let's be honest -- we all know that's not what killing means.I'm not the biggest Sansa fan, but I don't think she's killed anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 If we count prologue characters I don't think Cressen has killed someone, of course he tried to kill Melisandre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 No. Joffrey killed Ned, probably inspired by Petyr Baelish and carried out by Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne. The author of this series himself disagrees with the idea that "Sansa killed Ned." Remove one factor from that shitstorm (Ned telling Cersei everything, Robert dying, Cersei being Cersei, Petyr betraying Ned) and you get a different outcome. What Sansa did was stupid, but she was also 11-years-old and had no malicious intent. It baffles me that people try to throw all the blame on her when there are adult characters who made obviously malicious decisions that sparked this war and so many deaths intentionally. They deserve your scorn.And I believe the intention of this thread is actual murder. Like axe to face murder. Sansa has never murdered anyone. Read the OP. Debate this issue in a thread where it is appropriate. Except don't because it's already been debated to death. A last word, I missed that debate. Sansa was explicitly told to stay away from Cersei and the other Lannisters. She still went ahead and disclosed Ned's plans to spirit them out of KL. Had the girls gotten on that boat, the Starks would be in a stronger position. Even if Ned gets arrested, he would be the only hostage. So Cersei would have to be very careful with how she treats him and what she does. Joffery could have still had him killed, but it would've brought the full wrath of the Starks and the North down upon the Lannisters, with nothing to temper their ferocity and lust for vengeance. She wanted the court life of KL and she got it. And she was old enough to hold some of the responsibility for her actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thallus Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 If I don't forget myself, Aeron has never lost a man to the drowned god. Of course even if he loses one, what is dead cannot die... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Aeron Greyjoy intentionally drowns Tallhart in ACoK for spitting at Theon, so technically he did "lose" someone :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thallus Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Aeron Greyjoy intentionally drowns Tallhart in ACoK for spitting at Theon, so technically he did "lose" someone :PFair enough, I'm corrected. CheersI blame the Damphairs chapters for being boring. Ofc I could argue that Tallhart wasn't Ironborn, so he doesn't count as a person, and so AD hasn't killed anyone. I won't, because thats silly, but Dampy would say so :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'd agree with Summerqueen that a lot of these people haven't murdered, they've killed. The difference isn't question of morality but legality, murder is killing someone unlawfully. Some of the examples given are clearly not unlawful - such as Ned's execution of Gared in compliance with the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thallus Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'd agree with Summerqueen that a lot of these people haven't murdered, they've killed. The difference isn't question of morality but legality, murder is killing someone unlawfully. Some of the examples given are clearly not unlawful - such as Ned's execution of Gared in compliance with the law.The law made and upheld by Ned's family.By your logic, Joffrey's sentencing of Ned is valid. He is the King, he makes all laws, therefore the execution is in compliance with the laws. And yet, who would really say that Ned death was a lawful execution, and not egregious murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blisscraft Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 If we count prologue characters I don't think Cressen has killed someone, of course he tried to kill Melisandre.Sadly, Cressen succeeds in killing himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Ending a sentient life is probably the single most difficult action to justify morally. I feel that it can be justified, but as a general rule I'd say virtually all killing in ASoIaF is, at the very least, questionable. Yeah, in our world with our laws but this isn't our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeromus Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Has Sansa ever actually been in a position where she had the power to murder someone (someone she wants or needs dead, not some random)?She quite clearly wanted Joffrey dead but never had the opportunity to do it herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Yes Sansa and Arianne are probably the only ones and even Sansa was sort of planing to kill Joffrey at the end of AGoT before Sandor stopped her, she ,thought mostly unwillingly, participated as accomplice in few other cases (Joffrey, Marillion, Dontos) and than there is a case of Sweetrobin being slowly poisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 The law made and upheld by Ned's family.By your logic, Joffrey's sentencing of Ned is valid. He is the King, he makes all laws, therefore the execution is in compliance with the laws. And yet, who would really say that Ned death was a lawful execution, and not egregious murder?Based on what Joffrey knew, it was a lawful execution. Stupid, because his Small Council had a plan to dispose of Ned in a manner that would allow for peace with Robb, but lawful. Ned admitted to trying to give Stannis Joffrey's throne (thus alleviating the need for a trial to prove guilt) and Joffrey gave him the death sentence - which is a punishment in proportion to the severity of the crime. Ned had not actually committed treason, but only Ned and Cersei of the people present knew that (probably Varys and Littlefinger too).Cat and Robb feel outrage about Ned's death but they don't know all the details about what is going on in Kings Landing. All they have been told is that Ned was killed for being a traitor, and they call it a lie (presumably because they know it is not in Ned's character). As I know they are right to call it a lie I share their outrage, but if I knew they were wrong and Ned had been a traitor I would believe them misguided (although I would still sympathise with them because they would not know they were wrong).He is the King, he makes all laws,I disagree with this. All justice comes from the king, but his role is predominately as judge not lawmaker. Kings can make laws (tax laws, Jaehaerys repealing the lords right on first night, hit a Targaryen and lose the hand) but laws as a rule are not made at a kings whim; legal concepts such as guest right, murder, rape and ownership don't exist only because a king says so.A king can break the law, if he stabs somebody for no reason he still commits a murder - he just won't get brought to trial and punished for it. If a king (even one legally on the throne) dispenses with things like trial (or confession) to determine guilt and punishment in proportion to the crime (determined by convention/ decrees/ ideas of justice) in favour of ordering his men to attack anyone he is not using law, just might. When Joff orders attacks on peasants (and especially when he shoots them with his crossbow) - he is acting unlawfully, that is murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Sansa's actions have unintentionally led to deaths. Lots of them, since she got Ned killed and started the war.How much does Arianne hang out with the Sand Snakes? She *might* have killed someone.Damn server error:I won't go into details as others have already explained it, but this above is false, Sansa had no role in it, her only fault was believing her future mother in law was honorable when she asked if she could talk her father in letting her stay in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Has Sansa ever actually been in a position where she had the power to murder someone (someone she wants or needs dead, not some random)?She quite clearly wanted Joffrey dead but never had the opportunity to do it herself.She had an opportunity to push Joff down onto the dry moat with all the spikes. But she let it pass. Although it probably would've cost her her own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 It would've been worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonsblood Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Catelyn is more to blame for Ned's death and the war than Sansa, she basically started the whole thing when she captured Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Catelyn is more to blame for Ned's death and the war than Sansa, she basically started the whole thing when she captured Tyrion.And finally the circle of bullshit blame has been completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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