[Book Spoilers] Dear Writers Who Do Not Answer To the Name George R.R. Martin,

[zippypoodle]

if you think cercei is a one dimensional villain you must have read different books than i did...

Please. Enlighten me on the many layers of book-Cersei. Your average bean dip has more.

[zippypoodle]

was GRRM comparing the previous episodes to a barrell full of puke?

One wonders

No, one doesn't.

[King Tommen]

No, but if someone else had written it they may have decided to not show that at all. I read an interview with someone from the show and they said they came very close to not showing the battle *at all* instead remaining inside with Cersei and Sansa and the women and having reports brought in about the battle. If Martin's script had not called for seeing the battle we might not have seen it.

So it's your contention that the producers of the show had no intention of showing a battle at all until Martin gave them a script that had fight scenes in it and they suddenly realized that they should show it? Brilliant.

The interview you are referring to is what D&D had resigned themselves to something they may have had to show given the limitations of the budget before deciding to go to HBO for the increased funds for the episode so that they could stage a battle on some kind of larger scale. This was long before Martin submitted a script as all of the writers would need to have a general outline for each episode provided by the producers before knowing how to structure their given hour.

Are people here so obtuse as to not understand what "showrunners" do? They are involved at every stage of the production, they aren't the HBO suits. These guys know the books backwards and forwards and have sat down and spoken to GRRM for countless hours about the direction and plotting of the series and how to best adapt his novels. They aren't some idiots sitting in a room waiting for Martin to tell them how to stage a TV show.

[Fragile Bird]

and most importantly,

4. Cersei would have never... never... never considered poisoning Tommen.

What happened here is that GRRM adapted all of these things so that we could get similar emotional responses as we had when reading the books. This is the exact same thing that has gone on all season.

I am not saying that all of the changes this year were as good as this, Mr. Martin obviously knows just what emotional response he wants from his series and was able to adapt these things better than anyone else.

I think I have to disagree with this point. In the book, Tyrion has moved Tommen away from King's Landing for safety reasons, in particular I think, remembering what Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch did to Rhaegar's children. By keeping Tommen at King's Landing, I think GRRM is showing us, the book readers, what could have happened had Tommen not been moved, while at the same time showing the TV-only audience how ruthless Cersei can be.

[irishtemper]

I think I have to disagree with this point. In the book, Tyrion has moved Tommen away from King's Landing for safety reasons, in particular I think, remembering what Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch did to Rhaegar's children. By keeping Tommen at King's Landing, I think GRRM is showing us, the book readers, what could have happened had Tommen not been moved, while at the same time showing the TV-only audience how ruthless Cersei can be.

Thats what the Illyn Payne beheading all of us if Stannis takes the city bit to Sansa was for....how do you need more than that to show how ruthless she can be.

[Fragile Bird]

Thats what the Illyn Payne beheading all of us if Stannis takes the city bit to Sansa was for....how do you need more than that to show how ruthless she can be.

Yes, true, but the difference is, Ilyn Payne being there was in the book, and in the book Tommen was moved for safety. By keeping Tommen in King's Landing, GRRM is telling us, the book readers, I bet you didn't think she'd poison Tommen did you, and for the TV watcher who hasn't read the books, he's clearly showing them how far Cersei is willing to go, even against her own child. And by the way, why wasn't Joff with them? She was willing to poison Tommen, but she'd let Stannis burn her Joffrey alive? Well, she might not know about burnings, they may not have happened yet, but she knows Stannis will kill him.

[SerMixalot]

i think they implied she didnt know where joff was.

that scene would have been weid with joff in it

[The Other Knight]

It doesn't hurt that he got Blackwater to write. The episode D&D fought their behinds off to get made. But they won't get credit for that.

It is like Baelor last season. The best material is usually going to yield the best results.

[sadfascist]

GRRM did write a brilliant episode. However, I gotta hand it to D&D for all that they have done to take this from book to screen and they have done a fantastic job working the source material in with the various constraints. I don't think enough people give them the credit they deserve and that's a shame.

I have tremendous respect for D&D as showrunners. It's clear that without the two of them specifically the show would only be a shadow of what it is.

But as scriptwriters? Not so much.

It's no accident the absolute worst scenes in GOT (off the top of my head: Theon giving Ghost to Jon, Littlefinger sexposition, Stannis introduction scene, Twyin teaching Jaime to read, anything to do with Ros or Talisa) have all been written by D&D. Bryan Cogman is a significantly better scriptwriter. GRRM blows them all out of the water.

We can recognize this fact in addition to appreciating D&D for being amazing showrunners. There is no conflict; people are better at some things than others.

Heh, tell that to the San San shippers. :P

I for one am convinced that the only reason Sansa did not sing to the Hound in "Blackwater" was because D&D cut it out. It's inconcievable GRRM would not include this scene in his original script.

Yet another poor D&D choice.

(And yes, if it turns out Martin was the one responsible, then my opinion of Martin will immediately decline.)

[Mad Queen]

This episode reminded me of what I watch GoT for. I couldn't stop smiling for a long time after it ended. I don't know if the merit is all GRRM's, and certainly nobody here, even the biggest "fanatic", thinks everything GRRM does is perfect. Just head to the book forums and read the numerous criticisms of AFfC and ADwD. But undoubtedly this was the best episode of season 2 and I think GRRM deserves a lot of credit. After all he created this whole thing, we already know he can be an excellent writer. I bet a lot of people here have only read the book series recently and just don't have the same attachment to it as the others who have read and re-read it so many times over the years.

[The Other Knight]

I have tremendous respect for D&D as showrunners. It's clear that without the two of them specifically the show would only be a shadow of what it is.

But as scriptwriters? Not so much.

It's no accident the absolute worst scenes in GOT (off the top of my head: Theon giving Ghost to Jon, Littlefinger sexposition, Stannis introduction scene, Twyin teaching Jaime to read, anything to do with Ros or Talisa) have all been written by D&D. Bryan Cogman is a significantly better scriptwriter. GRRM blows them all out of the water.

We can recognize this fact in addition to appreciating D&D for being amazing showrunners. There is no conflict; people are better at some things than others.

I for one am convinced that the only reason Sansa did not sing to the Hound in "Blackwater" was because D&D cut it out. It's inconcievable GRRM would not include this scene in his original script.

Yet another poor D&D choice.

(And yes, if it turns out Martin was the one responsible, then my opinion of Martin will immediately decline.)

They have also written some of the best scenes in the series. People like to say the first season is better, when they wrote more episodes in the first season. They wrote The Kingsroad, Baelor and Fire & Blood.

And what in the world was wrong with Tywin teaching Jaime to read?

[sadfascist]

They have also written some of the best scenes in the series. People like to say the first season is better, when they wrote more episodes in the first season. They wrote The Kingsroad, Baelor and Fire & Blood.

I'm not saying D&D are bad writers, just not as good as Bryan Cogman and GRRM. And it shows.

The first season is better because D&D stuck closer to the source material of the books. When they did not do so (i.e. Ros), the result was almost invariably inferior.

And what in the world was wrong with Tywin teaching Jaime to read?

To me, the idea that Tywin of all people would spend time teaching his dyslexic son to read is absurd. YMMV.

EDIT: And to tell this story to random servant girl Arya is doubleplus absurd.

[HouseLark]

To me, the idea that Tywin of all people would spend time teaching his dyslexic son to read is absurd. YMMV.

A man who can't read is at a severe disadvantage to his noble peers, they would run rings around him. Tywin would not want his heir to have that weakness, or any weakness. And I dare say that knowing Jaime, only Tywin could sit him down and force him to learn.

[The Unborn]

And what in the world was wrong with Tywin teaching Jaime to read?

It wasn't in the books for god's sake!

No seriously nothing was wrong with it, it was perfectly in tone Tywin and the kind of man he is. If his son can't do something, he will damn make sure he will do it.

[SerMixalot]

what is absurd is the needless modernizing by including dyslexia.

[Khal-a-bunga]

what is absurd is the needless modernizing by including dyslexia.

Modernizing? You can't be serious. Please, don't be serious.

[DornishKnight]

Please. Enlighten me on the many layers of book-Cersei. Your average bean dip has more.

Without taking a side, I'm going to give my impression of book Cersei:

She wants to be a man and is the epitome of the "I want a penis" syndrome. She thinks that: she has more power than she actually has, that Joffrey is a good boy, that Tommen is a fool like his father except a coward to boot (while punishing him for daring to defy her), and that she is some sort of genius.

She is actually abrasive, self centered (loves her children, HAH! Look at how she treats Tommen), paranoid, impulsive, idiotic, ignorant of how things actually work (the "power is power" scene was perfect, as far as Cersei was concerned), and sees enemies and allies in all the wrong places.

The scene last episode was spot on. If you have seen the interviews, Lena Headey does not read the books. Her opinion of Cersei's character in the first season interviews were laughably wrong. This season was a lot closer. What we are seeing in the show is a woman who has a facade of being in control, a schemer, and cold but we have seen it start to crack this season (I think Martin may have sent them a message). I expect her to lose the facade as the series progresses.

I have a friend who has not read the books except the first. When I told him that we get Cersei POV's his reaction was: "That doesn't sound interesting. It would just be reading about a genius evil schemer." My reaction: "You know nothing! Jon Snow."

Can't wait for season 4 when Lena goes batshit.

[The Other Knight]

I'm not saying D&D are bad writers, just not as good as Bryan Cogman and GRRM. And it shows.

The first season is better because D&D stuck closer to the source material of the books. When they did not do so (i.e. Ros), the result was almost invariably inferior.

To me, the idea that Tywin of all people would spend time teaching his dyslexic son to read is absurd. YMMV.

You mean like when they had Ned warn Yoren about Arya? Yeah, I know inferior.

And there are no such things Ros scenes. She has had one scene dedicated to her this entire series. The rest were Theon, Littlefinger and Joffrey scenes.

And it makes complete sense that Tywin would teach his son, his heir how to read even if he hated him for it. It completely fits his character.

[David Selig]

I don't see it honestly. Yeah, it was a really good episode, but in terms of writing "Baelor" for example was just as good if not better. And it really helped Martin that he had the green light to write a whole episode only about a single plotline, which is the climactic point of the book/season which wasn't an option for the other episodes.

[SerMixalot]

Modernizing? You can't be serious. Please, don't be serious.

u dont think it odd that they included a disease which is related to reading and writing when 99% of the population does not read or write?

and then of course heroic father figure can solve that particular problem

yes smacks of needless modernization