MysticWind Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ah, but the point is that there's more than one way to play the game of thrones, and maximizing your honor is only one of them. Stannis doesn't do that, instead his build is more balanced between honor, greater good, badassedness, ruthlessness, and dourness. That's why people like his claim, because he appears to be the only contender who might actually have a post-war strategy to rule the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Stannis is in the middle of the "honor" spectrum. He would like to think and his fans would like to think that he is the epitome of honor. Sorry but that was Ned Stark. Can you imagine Ned Stark using the black arts to kill his younger brother to support his own claim, even if it were unassailable? Still Stannis treats Davos and some others honorably and is a brave warrior. A lot of that can be said for Jaime Lannister, for example, who also turns out to be in the middle of the honor spectrum.I think the key difference is that while Ned Stark was honorable in his dealings with friends and foes alike, Stannis Baratheon is only honorable towards those he believe have earned the right to be treated with honor. That seems very reasonable in my opinion.Jamie can't really be put in the same boat as Stannis I think; he's too treacherous, chaotic and unpredictable by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I don't think Jamie can be put in the same boat as Stannis; Jamie seems more treacherous and unpredictable, whereas Stannis is very set in his ways, with rigid values.I agree they are not the same. Jaime is more loyal to his family and deadly to all others. Stannis is deadly to all that offend his warped sense of whatever you want to call it. Renley got it right when he said that no one (other than this blog) would support Stannis as King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurararaFTW Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 As Varys said, it wasn't Ned's honor that killed him and the king. It was his mercy. Stannis may have honor but he is utterly without mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticWind Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 They wouldn't support Stannis because he's uninspiring and probably would make a better Hand, not because he would be an ineffective or bad king. Stannis, like the Five Good Emperors of the Roman Emperor, would be a dull and decent king obsessed with order and justice, but lacking glory or finery. He's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I agree they are not the same. Jaime is more loyal to his family and deadly to all others. Stannis is deadly to all that offend his warped sense of whatever you want to call it. Renley got it right when he said that no one (other than this blog) would support Stannis as King.Renly was incorrect, as proven by the fact that thousands supported Stannis as King at the Battle of Blackwater (enough to outnumber King Joffrey's men five to one if I recall correctly), and that thousands of northerners support Stannis as King in ADWD. Furthermore Renly was the one who was disloyal to his family by usurping the rightful heir, and consequently forced Stannis to act accordingly. If Stannis wasn't a loyal family man, he wouldn't have carried out Robert's commands so dutifully despite all the insults. Jamie engaged in incest with his sister, and betrayed her in AFFC, so I don't think he holds up very well on the "family values scale" by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Songlian Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 This thread manages to express my level of fangirlism perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Renly was incorrect, as proven by the fact that thousands supported Stannis as King at the Battle of Blackwater (enough to outnumber King Joffrey's men five to one if I recall correctly),Except.... All the loyal Renley troops switched to the hated Lannisters just to get back at Stannis. And they were enough with Tywin to boot Stannis out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I think another important difference between Ned and Stannis is that Stannis doesn't suffer many illusions. He knows that he is hated by many, he knows how many of his bannermen think and what they will say before they say it, he knows after the Blackwater that his chances aren't that good. But he still chooses to do things his own way, damn the consequences. He isn't surprised by the treachery of others, with the possible exception of Renly because that hits so close to home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 That's why this battle is so good on a narrative level. Our beloved Tyrion, Sansa, Sandor and Bronn are being attacked by the ruthless rebel Stannis. But oh wait, Joffrey and Cersei are on their side too. And Stannis may be a just man, but he deals with black magic and other amoral activities. And both sides see Robb as a traitor. There is no "good guy" here, which makes this battle much more interesting than those between Starks and Lannisters (where it's pretty obvious who the audience will root for).About the part in bold: he isn't the rebel, the audience knows he is speaking the truth when he says he's Robert's rightful heir. Which, of course, adds another level of ambiguity to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salt Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Except.... All the loyal Renley troops switched to the hated Lannisters just to get back at Stannis. And they were enough with Tywin to boot Stannis out of town.Is that why they switched sides during the battle? It seems like the 80,000 Lannister/Tyrells surprising their flank and slaughtering them from behind might have also provided a small incentive to surrender.No doubt many of the Stormland men wished they were fighting for Renly instead of Stannois, but If they were simply looking for any opportunity to get back at Stannis, they would have just left with the Tyrells rather than ever joining him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 It is war, but I doubt Renly would have killed Stannis. Renly seemed to want to work together - but Stannis wouldn't allow that because he was older and had the better claim to the throne. Also Stannis' methods were questionable. Killing your brother in war because he lost in one thing. Killing him using dark magic because you were going to lose is less forgivable. Renly could have never solidified his 'claim' to the throne as long as Stannis lived. If he had wanted to work together, he had every opportunity to support Stannis, but he didn't. If it had been up to Stannis, Renly wouldn't have rebelled, unfortunately he did. Renly declared war on his brother and put himself in the line of fire. The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to die. Renly was prepared to kill Stannis, but apparently you would have accepted it if Stannis had fallen in battle as opposed to the actual events. Right, then. The manner of killing is entirely obsolete to me, in fact, Stannis avoided battle. A King's duty is not only to lead, but also to serve his bannermen's best interests: not having to face the rebel Renly in combat with 10 to 1 odds was definitely in their (and the entire realm's) best interests.Except.... All the loyal Renley troops switched to the hated Lannisters just to get back at Stannis.And in that, they were wrong and deluded, just like they were wrong and deluded in fighting the North later. Less influential men take leadership where they can find it out of fear for repercussion. Had it not been for Loras' intervention, the forces Renly left behind would have been recruited by Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Except.... All the loyal Renley troops switched to the hated Lannisters just to get back at Stannis. And they were enough with Tywin to boot Stannis out of town.According to the books, the majority of Renly's followers swore allegiance to King Stannis immediately after Renly's death. Ergo, Renly was mistaken in his boisterous claim that nobody would want to support Stannis as King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 According to the books, the majority of Renly's hosts immediately swore allegiance to King Stannis. Ergo, Renly was mistaken in his boisterous claim that nobody would want to support Stannis as King.The Tyrells obviously trumped that, in the book and series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 The Tyrells obviously trumped that, in the book and series.I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Do you stand by your claim that Renly was correct when he said that "nobody would support Stannis for King"? If not, let's stop discussing this. It was hyperbolic exaggeration on Renly's part, and evidently incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 No one cares if they did. The majority of Renly's forces in Stannis' vicinity joined him, the others would have been recruited as well if they had been close enough, they only needed someone to lead them. As I said regular men will take leadership where they can find it out of fear of immediate repercussion by their nearby leaders. Or do you think the Goldcloaks all fought out of love for Joffrey? So your argument that 'no one wants to follow Stannis' isn't worth jack shit.Most of the information we get about Stannis is second-hand information from people who have come to dislike him through Robert's reign for... well, what? Because siding with the King, who disliked his brother, was the easy choice, of course. That's the root cause of his tarnished reputation, because when we actually see Stannis, we see he's able to get the Night's Watch's support as well as the mountain tribes', and then people just go and blindly believe everything every character ever says about him rather than looking at the facts... Create your own opinions instead of taking others' for your own.The point is simple, if you declare war on someone for no reason, you shouldn't whine if that person kills you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sToNED_CAT Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Well that scene with Stannis leading his men to storm city walls was pretty stupid. He's not just a general, he is a king (claimant) if he dies the whole war is over, I don't think his men would continue fighting for little Shireen. Only incompetent leader would risk the outcome of whole war like that, and Stannis is not incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellipse Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Mel wouldn't have made any difference on the Blackwater, unless she was a High Mage of High Thyr. She has never shown enough power to deal with amount of Wildfire.the good thing about having mel around is her ability to see possible threats to her or people around her. they could have been prepared for wildfire and tywin attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Do you stand by your claim that Renly was correct when he said that "nobody would support Stannis for King"? If not, let's stop discussing this. It was hyperbolic exaggeration on Renly's part, and evidently incorrect.Wow. Renly said that when Stannis already had a small following. Not "nobody." I agree to stop discussing your straw midget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 No one cares if they did. The majority of Renly's forces in Stannis' vicinity joined him, the others would have been recruited as well if they had been close enough, they only needed someone to lead them.The point is simple, if you declare war on someone for no reason, you shouldn't whine if that person kills you.Exactly. And if it had been Tywin Lannister that was around they would have joined him. Who declared war on whom? Renley tried to join forces with Stannis, but the "justice" or was it "honor" or was it "fairness" wouldnt allow Stannis to side with the more popular, albeit younger, man. Neither younger Baratheion, nor the original one was or would be a good king. One of GRRM themes might be, as human history as shown, there are no good kings. They are all despots who deserve to be ousted before they install their idiot children or relatives after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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