[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Valkyrja]

So sorry to disappoint you, Fragile Bird! :(

I had reservations about saying anything, but I figured that since this thread was labeled 'Book Spoilers' already, that a few more dind't matter, especially since Juliads specifically asked to be spoiled.

Ah well.....too late to take it back...... sowwy!!! :(

[Roboginger]

One reason I am really pissed off is because I feel it is extremely unfair that we are now supposed to be taking the HBO version as 'canon' because of GRRM's involvement and D&D's knowledge of the series' end. I did not start watching an HBO show only to have them 'spoiler' me and ruin my enjoyment of the later books in the series because I can now deduce things that are or aren't going to happen via what happens in the tv series. :bs:

Bugger that.

I agree Here, it is kind of a bummer :frown5: It almost would have been better if the book series was finished before the show was out. I would hate to have the show some how influence the books, or have some kind of huge spoiler unknowingly thrown in.

[Maroucia]

I heard an interview in which GRRM says that the fact that there is now a tv-series about his ASOIAF story doesn't influence his writing in any way. I hope he was telling the truth, but I trust he was.

[Rinso]

Eh, how can something that was never alive to be dead and buried? Sandor is one of the few characters that the show has totally dropped the ball with and he was basically demoted to a sad looking extra in the background. I was pretty pissed off about it in Season 1 (considering he's more or less my favorite character in the books) but I got over it and went into Season 2 with no expectations about him whatsoever. So I'm pretty zen about how lame his last scene with Sansa was when I compare it to what was in the book.

Seriously, in the few parts where the show falls flat (like Sandor Clegane's characterization for example) I really envy the fans who watch it and haven't read the books. They don't know better and happily move on. I wish I wasn't such a purist but it's not like I can help it :worried:

[Fragile Bird]

So sorry to disappoint you, Fragile Bird! :(

I had reservations about saying anything, but I figured that since this thread was labeled 'Book Spoilers' already, that a few more dind't matter, especially since Juliads specifically asked to be spoiled.

Ah well.....too late to take it back...... sowwy!!! :(

Oh, it doesn't bother me, lol. But just think of the agony she's missing! I missed the gravedigger in my first read because I was whipping along so fast, eager to get through the books. I cried when I couldn't find any mention of the Hound being alive or dead in ADWD. I was soooooo pissed! And then when I finally started re-reading, I couldn't believe my eyes! I mean, Arya left him alive by the tree, I was so very sure he was still alive, yet nothing in Dragons!

[Kittykatknits]

I heard an interview in which GRRM says that the fact that there is now a tv-series about his ASOIAF story doesn't influence his writing in any way. I hope he was telling the truth, but I trust he was.

I hope he was telling the truth...thanks for the info.

Oh, it doesn't bother me, lol. But just think of the agony she's missing! I missed the gravedigger in my first read because I was whipping along so fast, eager to get through the books. I cried when I couldn't find any mention of the Hound being alive or dead in ADWD. I was soooooo pissed! And then when I finally started re-reading, I couldn't believe my eyes! I mean, Arya left him alive by the tree, I was so very sure he was still alive, yet nothing in Dragons!

I did the same thing with Dance. I'll be frantically looking for any mention of Sandor and Sansa when WoW is finally released.

[Maroucia]

Oh, it doesn't bother me, lol. But just think of the agony she's missing! I missed the gravedigger in my first read because I was whipping along so fast, eager to get through the books. I cried when I couldn't find any mention of the Hound being alive or dead in ADWD. I was soooooo pissed! And then when I finally started re-reading, I couldn't believe my eyes! I mean, Arya left him alive by the tree, I was so very sure he was still alive, yet nothing in Dragons!

I went through a similar agony after hearing from the elder brother that the Hound was death.

I fixed the ceiling in despair for about an hour before I realised that there was no way I could survive without being 100% sure of Sandor’s faith… So I went on the net and learned about the grave digger theory. I was relieved in a way, but also sad to see that he wouldn’t be in ADWD!!!

I usually don’t spoil myself like that, but the prospect of Sandor being death was too much for me to bear! Since we never witnessed his death, how could I go through a real, healthy and much needed mourning? :bawl:

In the lost of loved ones, seeing the body is extremely important in the process of trying to find some closure, it is known.

No body=No closure= :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Istari]

GRRM's intentions for Sandor and Sansa shouldn't based on the show. GRRM had to edit the bedroom scene in ACOK to match their on-screen relationship already prescribed by HBO.

I refuse to take the show as canon - that is just silly.

I also refuse to believe that Sandor and Sansa is 'dead and buried'.

We all know that GRRM is ruthless when it comes to killing off characters. I believe that the gravedigger is Sandor. If his story (or his significance to the grand scheme of things) was finished, GRRM would have killed him off.

Which leads me to the question: Why keep the character alive - especially a character like him - only to have him live in isolation?

Answer: His story is not finished. To me, that indicates that San/San is alive and above ground.

We all know that GRRM is ruthless when it comes to killing off characters. I believe that the gravedigger is Sandor. If his story (or his significance to the grand scheme of things) was finished, GRRM would have killed him off.

Which leads me to the question: Why keep the character alive - especially a character like him - only to have him live in isolation?

Answer: His story is not finished. To me, that indicates that San/San is alive and above ground.

But then again.... if he does turn out to be dead (and lets pray to the old gods and the Seven for him to still be alive) then my theory goes out the window....

The only consolation that I have (if Sandor really is dead) is that there was a meaningful connection between the two of them while they were still alive. Sansa cares for Sandor, and she knows her cared about her.....

The only bad news is that Sandor would have died completely unaware of how important he was to Sansa. What makes this worse is that 'people dying without knowing the truth' is a theme that happens all too often in ASOIAF....(most obvious example would be the fact that Rob ... and I guess Cat too... died under the impression that Bran and Rickon were both dead)

[Yvonesan]

I was really anxious about Sandor/Sansa's scene prior to the episode but I was glad to find my fears unfounded. My initial reaction was a little disappointment (but not surprised due to the limited time available in an episode) that the scene wasn't longer but I was pleased with what we did get all the same. Even with the changes from the book. I thought it was significant to have Sansa voice the thought that Sandor "won't hurt" her, considering that one of the possible interpretations from the book scene is that he fully intended to hurt her. It seems to me that GRRM doesn't want this to be the case. He really drove the point home in the scene... with Sandor repeatedly saying it too... "I'll keep you safe", "no, little bird I won't hurt you" and his frightened reaction to Sansa's belief that she'll be safe with Stannis or so many of the powers that be in her world. The one thing I really regret after this is knowing that we won't see Rory McCann's Sandor in any scenes with Sansa for at least quite some time to come. Thank heavens we'll still see him next season at least! He just is Sandor Clegane to me. I truly hope that they won't relegate his scenes with Arya to a minor detail.

I also refuse to believe that Sandor and Sansa is 'dead and buried'.

We all know that GRRM is ruthless when it comes to killing off characters. I believe that the gravedigger is Sandor. If his story (or his significance to the grand scheme of things) was finished, GRRM would have killed him off.

Which leads me to the question: Why keep the character alive - especially a character like him - only to have him live in isolation?

Answer: His story is not finished. To me, that indicates that San/San is alive and above ground.

The other thing that adds weight to the suspicion that he's still alive is the fact that Sansa thinks about him in almost every single one of her chapters. Why would GRRM mention Sandor so frequently if he is dead and buried? I think he's making sure that we keep the character in our minds because he is going to surface again at some point and when he does, he will still be playing a part in Sansa's story.

The only bad news is that Sandor would have died completely unaware of how important he was to Sansa. What makes this worse is that 'people dying without knowing the truth' is a theme that happens all too often in ASOIAF....(most obvious example would be the fact that Rob ... and I guess Cat too... died under the impression that Bran and Rickon were both dead)

True, GRRM doesn't veer from real life scenarios so it's certainly possible but I live in hope based on the above fact, that his name is so often mentioned throughout. It will be my first question to anyone who reads WoW before I do (just as it was when ADwD was published)... if Sandor Clegane has re-appeared. For now, I just have to read Sansa's chapters to know that "SanSan" is not over yet.

[Caro99]

I was really anxious about Sandor/Sansa's scene prior to the episode but I was glad to find my fears unfounded. My initial reaction was a little disappointment (but not surprised due to the limited time available in an episode) that the scene wasn't longer but I was pleased with what we did get all the same. Even with the changes from the book. I thought it was significant to have Sansa voice the thought that Sandor "won't hurt" her, considering that one of the possible interpretations from the book scene is that he fully intended to hurt her. It seems to me that GRRM doesn't want this to be the case. He really drove the point home in the scene... with Sandor repeatedly saying it too... "I'll keep you safe", "no, little bird I won't hurt you" and his frightened reaction to Sansa's belief that she'll be safe with Stannis or so many of the powers that be in her world. The one thing I really regret after this is knowing that we won't see Rory McCann's Sandor in any scenes with Sansa for at least quite some time to come. Thank heavens we'll still see him next season at least! He just is Sandor Clegane to me. I truly hope that they won't relegate his scenes with Arya to a minor detail.

The other thing that adds weight to the suspicion that he's still alive is the fact that Sansa thinks about him in almost every single one of her chapters. Why would GRRM mention Sandor so frequently if he is dead and buried? I think he's making sure that we keep the character in our minds because he is going to surface again at some point and when he does, he will still be playing a part in Sansa's story.

his name is so often mentioned throughout. It will be my first question to anyone who reads WoW before I do (just as it was when ADwD was published)... if Sandor Clegane has re-appeared. For now, I just have to read Sansa's chapters to know that "SanSan" is not over yet.

i could not agree more with everything you said!

by the way, just one quick comment about the original title of this thread. it was meant to wonder if san/san would be dead after what was shown in the blackwater episode, but for those who believe that since george wrote that episode then we should all assume it is dead. in the 2nd half of elio & linda's recap of S2, (though i watched the S2 recap last night, so maybe i am mis-remembering elio's exact words about this) elio says that what really happens is what is written in the books, so i take heart that in the books the un-kiss moment is so diffrent from the show and it does leave the san/san future as a big possibility..

[Fragile Bird]

I must look at the Season 2 recap as well, but that sounds good, Caro99!

[Yvonesan]

i could not agree more with everything you said!

:thumbsup:

by the way, just one quick comment about the original title of this thread. it was meant to wonder if san/san would be dead after what was shown in the blackwater episode, but for those who believe that since george wrote that episode then we should all assume it is dead. in the 2nd half of elio & linda's recap of S2, (though i watched the S2 recap last night, so maybe i am mis-remembering elio's exact words about this) elio says that what really happens is what is written in the books, so i take heart that in the books the un-kiss moment is so diffrent from the show and it does leave the san/san future as a big possibility.

I don't believe GRRM has buried anything between the two in the show either... So it will be quite some time before we see any further interactions (if ever, but please let it happen!) and the scene reflects that but there was no final closure to it either, just as there wasn't in the books. Which makes sense based on what has already been written, as the author hardly wants to remove the possibilities since it would give away some of his future intentions for the story.

[cannibaltortoise]

In the books there is no way it is just a paternal/protective thing, in a way it is. He obviously cares for her and wants to protect her, but It's pretty clear part of him wants a bit more then that. Also based on Sansas dreams etc. I'm thinking in a way she wouldn't mind too much, yeah Iknow she's still a child, but this is Westeros.

Personally I do prefer the protective element though.

[-Sansa-]

Yes, Sansan is dead and buried ... by Quiet Island undertaker ... :cool4:

[Le Cygne]

Quotes:

Sandor in Blackwater:

Show scene - "I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe. Do you want to go home?... No, Little Bird, I won't hurt you."

Book scene - "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

Sansa before the Blackwater scene (he's the only one who gets his own prayer):

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

...

He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Sansa at the end of the Blackwater scene:

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. How long she stayed there she could not have said, but after a time she heard a bell ringing, far off across the city.

Sansa after the Blackwater scene:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

Sandor on Sansa after Blackwater (he brings her up over a dozen times):

"Seven hells. The little sister."

...

"This one's own sister"

...

"I watched them beat your sister"

...

"I never beat your sister"

...

"Or maybe a sister? Sansa. That's it, isn't it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird."

...

"I saved your sister's life too"

...

"Your sister sang me a sweet little song."

...

"You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did."

...

"I thought your sister was the one with a head full of songs"

...

"What wife?"

...

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

...

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. "The little bird flew away, did she?"

...

"A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

...

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her."

Sansa on Sandor after Blackwater (she thinks about him over a dozen times):

[They] would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

...

I wish the Hound were here... Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks... But Sansa understood...

...

a man as different from Sandor Clegane as...

...

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had.

...

uglier than the Hound

...

A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice… She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

...

Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

...

It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor..

...

Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

...

When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger.

...

as tall as the Hound

...

He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

...

"You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?" She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.

[Woman of War]

Le Cygne, all your quotes are from the books and far more advanced thatn the series are at that point.

I think it is well possible that GRRM may keep the general direction that Sandor wants to be more than Sansa's protector. After all this mixture of protectiveness and outright sexual violence, with a knife at her throat and explicit thought of rape, is hugely interesting and adds important facets to the character Sandor. Actually without his infatuation with Sansa and his travel with Arya the character Sandor would be quite pointless to write and to read about, one more evil guy, so what.

But it is possible that in episode 9 GRRM has been preparing us for a final outcome that leaves out some of the ambiguity of their relationship. I am quite sure that a reciprocal love relationship between Sandor and Sansa has never been intended in Martin's story but that the author wanted to let us guess and consider the possibility. Something so deliciously twisted!

In the series the author apparently shortens and straightens their common storyline, leaving out beautiful but sadly unnecessary twists and hints that will finally be meaningless for the story outcome. Sandor, if he ever leaves the Quiet Isle, will be Sansa's protector, he will die for her and if she is by then old enough to recognize his emotions she might be aware that he loved her in his weird way - at the moment before she sees him dying.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

I sincerely hope not!

Do you want rip my "heart out ( leaving her for that dwarf " or anyone other than my Hound)?

I think it will be the only way to lose my obsession with ASOIAF. :agree:

[Melifeather]

I just really hate that the relationship between Sandor and Sansa is viewed as a positive romance. The way the SanSan fans portray it, its akin to the Disney Beauty and the Beast, and every other Disney female character that is attracted to a man that scares and intimidates her, threatens her with bodily harm, and plays on her insecurities. The Disney female also rejects anyone that is reasonable, or treats her kindly, and would have provided more suitable circumstances. Sandor is also a full grown man and he's attracted to a young teenaged girl. That alone grosses me out!

My personal opinion is that GRRM did not intend for the romance to bloom. I see Sandor having an attraction that thankfully he didn't act upon forcefully. That's the only good thing he has going for himself. Sansa was scared witless in Kings Landing and I'm hoping that if she had any romantic notions, it's chalked up to her youth and desire for a protector. She's beginning to grow up at the Vale and learning that she can take care of herself. She won't have any further desires or need for a "Sandor". That is what I am hoping for her character development.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

I just really hate that the relationship between Sandor and Sansa is viewed as a positive romance. The way the SanSan fans portray it, its akin to the ...

Not me.

Ultimately I see is an archetype of my parents (1 year of friendship ..or that's what they tell us, 5 of courtship - until my mother turned 18 and 25 of the happiest marriage I've ever met).

[Melifeather]

Not me.

Ultimately I see is an archetype of my parents (1 year of friendship ..or that's what they tell us, 5 of courtship - until my mother turned 18 and 25 of the happiest marriage I've ever met).

I'm sure your father didn't threaten your mother with physical violence.