[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Lyanna Stark]

i keep hoping Drogo will get the late night munchies and eat Dany....but nope......

Unintentionally I am sure, but :lol:

[Kobayashi Maru]

@Maroucia I'm in the simillar situatio like you regarding this episode,I have it but I just saw that one scene and my little hart was broken. :crying:

I just lost all hope they will end up together.I just have some strange feeling that GRRM was considering it before all that 5 year gap issue between the books and when it didn't turn out as he planed and characters didn't age 5 years he decided to go in completly other direction.Right now I'm almost convinced that unkiss situation was just GRRM and not Sansa missremembering.He wrote couple of versions and used the one whithout the kiss and later over the years just forgot..or something and included the scene in which she remembers it.Later when faced with it he realised what he had done and made up this it is important part BS.

I'm sorry but I'm just sooooo disapointed I am starting to turn against GRRM :worried: so not like me to have all this Misery moments.

And the fact that they gave all his best lines to LF is even scarier and more disapointing.Now it looks to me that those two will hook up.Now if you ask me THAT is sick.I just don't see it because I am convinced LF was the one who wispered in Joff's ear to do what he wants and kill Ned.And being with a man who played part in your father's murder is way worse than being with much older man with anger issue.

Honestly I had my doubts about Sansa and Sandor the minute I saw they casted Rorry.I love him and he is doing great job but he IS quite older than her and I thought no way they are showing him touchin her all the time.

I can't wait for the next book.I am definitely going to go all Misery on GRRM :angry:

[Raksha the Demon]

I was personally disappointed that the key Sansa/Hound interaction lasted what, all of two seconds; while Varys and Tyrion verbally fenced about sinking ships for just as long with not much of a point.

And don't get me started about Sansa deserting the frightened women in the Keep after telling them to pray.

There were at least some good Cersei/Sansa bits.

Best Sansa moments - her asking Joffrey if he was going to be leading from the front; that's what her brother Robb always does...

[Fragile Bird]

Just got caught up from last night - wonderful comments everyone, and as usual, I am out of likes, so here's a group hug for all of you :grouphug:

I'm glad so many of you share my thoughts, lol, I'm not the only, ermmm, strange one!!

[Kittykatknits]

Why? I've no idea, but I have a theory or two. In any case, these missing elements don't necessarily mean that anything is "dead". I mean, how can a relationship turn on one scene like that? There's enough there that you can maybe sorta see something in the future.

Any chance you would share those theories? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.....

The scene between the two of them makes sense when I consider the changes that have been made to their storyline this season. I'm disappointed about the entire S2 arc between them so this episode doesn't really matter all that much to me, I didn't expect much to begin with. I don't understand why she did not go with him though. In the books, it made sense but that doesn't translate to the tv show. He outright stated that he would take her home, keep her safe, and not hurt her. She even acknowledges this fact. Her reasoning seems to be that Stannis and his men won't hurt her? That strikes me as rather weak. That portion made no sense to me at all.

I don''t think SanSan is dead or over. There is an active SanSan thread over in the books section in the forum with lots of really good reasons why they are likely to meet again in the books. IF the only character/plot change the show made was to the relationship between Sandor and Sansa, then I would be worried. But, that isn't the case at all as we have changes to Dany's storyline, a huge change to Jon's that has resulted in changes to his character, changes to Robb's, a weakening of Catelyn's character, and whitewashed Tyrion. The differences between the books and the show were bigger this season than they were in the first and I expect that to continue going forward.

So, I don't think we can predict future events in the books based on the TV show which I am very glad about. The books are my canon. I enjoy the show in some respects but it's a pale imitation to what I really love - the books series.

San/San isn't dead for me at all. I'll stubbornly cling to hope until the last page of the last book. I'm a sucker that way.

[Queen of Winter]

Unsure.....this scene didnt have the "let's be emo drunk and stick a knife to the girl's throat" theme and was more of the "I want to rescue you...no Little Bird I won't hurt you, you are safe with me" theme....

Also, it is of interesting note that she goes into her room and picks up the doll her father gave her, holds it, and after she tells him he won't hurt her (which was more of an affirmation/statement/realization than a question), they zoom in on the doll while her hand seems to drop it while she looks after him.

That can be interpreted in a few different ways

True about the doll being interpreted in a few ways, Christina. I kind of took it to mean that part of her (the child still existing in her) was clinging to things that she took comfort in---things like the doll , partly because her father gave it to her. (If you remember in AGOT the book, Sandor at one point came up behind Sansa, placing his hands on her shoulders--she thought it was her father, until she turned around and saw it was the Hound).

I think her holding the doll also kind of symbolized that she wasn't quite "ready" to leave with Sandor, just yet. (i.e. remember that old saying about letting go of 'childish things',etc)

Quite frankly, I'm disappointed in the SanSan story line thus far (as many of you are). I understand that they have to change things for TV and all, but l was hoping the Blackwater episode might be closer to what happened in ACOK. Not surprised they changed it, but still somewhat disappointed with it. Just my two cents for what it's worth......

[ZenderZill]

I think in the series they're focusing on the long term character development of Sansa.

In a general sense, throughout all of Joffrey's cruelty, drunk Cersei scaring her, Sandor/Tyrion (later) looking out for her, Littlefinger's schemes, etc... its all about her growing into a hardened woman.

She starts the first book as a complete idealist, thinking that beautiful knights are honorable, queens are gracious, and that imps and monsters are evil. Her character arc over all the books is about her going from being a shallow little girl to an understanding woman worthy of being Catelyn and Ned's daughter.

I think they're sticking to it quite well in the show, and in particular in this episode they did it exceptionally!

[jons nissa]

IF the only character/plot change the show made was to the relationship between Sandor and Sansa, then I would be worried. But, that isn't the case at all as we have changes to Dany's storyline, a huge change to Jon's that has resulted in changes to his character, changes to Robb's, a weakening of Catelyn's character, and whitewashed Tyrion.

but those are all character changes or modifications. a relationship change would be a major plot change. however, since robb/tylisa and dany are still up in the air, i may change my tune after next week's episode. i doubt it though. from all the side glances tylisa throws, i still expect her to be part of the plan to destablize robb and i expect dany to still have enough of a khalasar to move on with.

as for what is shown to transpire between sandor and sansa, it appears to portray it as a type of friendship that benefitted both of them. and as the only friend she has that has always looked out for her well being and tried to help her recognize what is happening around her, i have no doubt they will meet again. the hound has shown that he genuinely cares about sansa in both the series and the books. and sansa learns to see the hound's true worth as a person and as knight in both the series and the books. but there doesn't seem to be any hints of romance at all on the show which is made with an understanding of where the story will eventually wind up. make of that what you will.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

well dont forget the HBO producers are....*gasp*.....MALE! Thats right, they are men,......

SO...in their testosterone minds, they are naturally going to focus on the "cool" characters such as Tyrion.

They dont much care about "blossoming females", unless it involves showing her boobs and having endless sex.

The whole Sansa/Sandor dynamic was naturally lost to them. That is a given.

Just as I am sure they will make Sansa like Tyrion and like being his wife, if only because they adore the actor.

Besides, unlike the books, Sansa isn't friendless...she has Shae now

[Greywolf2375]

I'm definitely not a SanSan person, but I do like the dynamic they have. Since we still have a long way to go with the TV series I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for Sansa to morph how she got the cloak and how she remembers their parting to be different.

That being said, if it is dead and buried, I'm completely ok with that.

[Patchface12]

The fact that they gave Sandor's line about how he got his burns to LF pissed me off a lot, but this "they're all liars here, and everyone better than you" I like, esp if she's coming back from her meeting with Dontos, which he set up in the first place.

That I found oddly appropriate and creates a twist of irony to the scene

Tho HBO's Hound has been a huge disappointment to me

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I'm definitely not a SanSan person, but I do like the dynamic they have. Since we still have a long way to go with the TV series I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for Sansa to morph how she got the cloak and how she remembers their parting to be different.

That being said, if it is dead and buried, I'm completely ok with that.

She still could have the cloak he wrapped around her shoulders when Joffrey had her punished and Tyrion came in to save the day in a badass-Tyrion way. Because, during Blackwater, he didn't have a white cloak if I remember well. besides, I don't think she will remember their parting different than it was. He never came too close to her, never *almost* kissed her, he only offered to take her with him. Lucky for us, he'll be there next season and I still hope we'll see more of him in the last two books.

[Leia]

After all the disappointment this season, and I'm not only referring to SanSan scenes but a lot of others, I need to say I don't care anymore what happens in the show. I'm sick of HBO. As much as I loved season 1, I equally do not like season 2. Only thing I care about now is for Sandor and Sansa meeting again in the books and preferably having a true romantic relationship. Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed (or rather sunk), mainly because probably GRRM didn't actually want to foreshadow that story and as he was writing the episode now, he might have wanted to make it clear we can not expect much in the future books (or show). There is also a possibility that he, at first, meant for it to happen later, but then had a change of heart - I really think he wants to spite the fans actually and especially with SanSan being so much shipped... And maybe thing for the other discussion, but I would nevertheless like to mention it. I have had a strong feeling recently that Sansa might end up as queen actually and I can not see how Sandor might fit in as her husband or even lover since I doubt that Sansa would cheat on her husband (who would be king also).

I also have to say, I am a hard SanSan shipper but I gotta be pessimistic because if I weren't these kinds of things would sadden me even more than they do. You know, better to be surprised in the end than disappointed.

And for all of you who don't like SanSan or don't ship it - I can not blame you, everyone of us have a different view on things and if we would all have the same opinion the discussions would be utterly boring. :D

[Valkyrja]

I feel your pain everyone.....I may have to bow out of this convo (not that anyone cares) simply because the prospect of the San/San being over and done with forever due to evidence found in a TV SHOW is waaaay too depressing for me. :(

One reason I am really pissed off is because I feel it is extremely unfair that we are now supposed to be taking the HBO version as 'canon' because of GRRM's involvement and D&D's knowledge of the series' end. I did not start watching an HBO show only to have them 'spoiler' me and ruin my enjoyment of the later books in the series because I can now deduce things that are or aren't going to happen via what happens in the tv series. :bs:

Bugger that.

[Maroucia]

I'm not giving up on SanSan book. Not yet.

As others have said, GRRM didn't have that many options when writing this episode since he had to work with a totally different storyline than the one that he has created. The bedroom scene to be believable, had to be way different than the book version, otherwise it would have been extremely weird and out of place.

HBO totally messed up though. :tantrum:

And as Kittykatknits has mentioned, Sansa has no reason not to go with the so nice and almost knightly tv-Hound, she even comes across as stupid for not going with him. He clearly tells her with no ambivalence at all that he will bring her to Winterfell!!! WTF??

Go with him girl! GOOO!!!!!!!! :bang:

Even though I do love tv-Hound, he’s really dull in comparison to the fierce, complicated and quite psycho book-Hound that we love…

Soooooo sad!!! :bawl: :bawl: :crying: :crying:

[Valkyrja]

On another note, I've read a number of reviews of the episode (written by non-book-readers) and they are breaking my heart! So many people think that Sansa (in dropping the doll) is actually going to leave with the Hound! They are rooting for her to do so! When she doesn't (as I know the show wouldn't dare stray so far from the books into territory that would make the San/San fansdie of happiness.....gods forbid! :P (They apparently only allow Arya to have sojourns with people she never even met in the books.)

So even with such a small dosage of 'San/San' in Blackwater, GRRM is still able to troll even the tv-show fans into thinking 'something' of this pairing! :bang:

OK......taking a deep breath now..... :P

Edited to say: Forgot to mention Maroucia, that yes, the way this scene plays out, all those viewers who thought they were 'onto' something in that episode will now be back to thinking that Sansa is a complete idiot. Yes, some people say she was an idiot for not going with the Hound in the books as well, but his motives and, erm....violent manner of asking were at least a deal more ambiguous (to her, at the time) in the books than in the show! They never adequately showed how frightened Sansa was of the Hound. Possibly due to the combination of aging her up and softening the Hound down. I used to think that aging Sansa up would be a good thing for these scenes on-screen, but actually now I think its been detrimental, because now it seems they are saying she supposed to be old enough to fully understand and accept and even *articulate* what the Hound wants to teach her, but that she still makes dumb choices anyway. Grrr.

Edited for clarity

[Grail King]

Ok ok I could not stay away until tomorrow I'm afraid to say ;) lol, well fragile bird and valkyrja, I totally agree with what you both said! To have ran saying that we should not really call san/san dead now was great and made me recall george burying 'the hound' but leaving the posibility of sandor alive. damn, george really likes to keep us speculating with his subtle hints about these 2 even in the show x) I wonder how the show will deal with sansa staying in kl next week cause I really did for a moment thought they had actually decided to have them go away together.. I think that I could have forgiven the show a little as I mentioned on another thread the lack of song and white cloak if we had only seen sansa cupping sandor's cheek after he tells her that she can trust him. That would have been beautifully bittersweet <3

I posted in another thread, that I felt the cupping or a palm on the face would have been a good way to leave that scene, but I like it just the same, I think it's open for the future.

[Maroucia]

On another note, I've read a number of reviews of the episode (written by non-book-readers) and they are breaking my heart! So many people think that Sansa (in dropping the doll) is actually going to leave with the Hound! They are rooting for her to do so! When she doesn't (as I know the show wouldn't dare stray so far from the books into territory that would make the San/San fansdie of happiness.....gods forbid! :P (They apparently only allow Arya to have sojourns with people she never even met in the books.)

So even with such a small dosage of 'San/San' in Blackwater, GRRM is still able to troll even the tv-show fans into thinking 'something' of this pairing! :bang:

Of course this won’t happen, and even if it would, I’m not even sure I would like it since HBO obliviously doesn’t get SanSan and what makes this ship so interesting. That would turn out as a huge mess also, I have no doubt about it…

[Grail King]

Sandor was trying to be....heroic. He wanted to save Sansa....but why?

We don't know the answer to this. He's always shown 'kindness' and 'honesty' with Sansa on the show. Far more than most others have at least.

A daughter or SISTER - he may never have / LOST

[Maroucia]

I posted in another thread, that I felt the cupping or a palm on the face would have been a good way to leave that scene, but I like it just the same, I think it's open for the future.

It does, but the dynamic is totally changed and not as half as interesting as in the one in the book. There's nothing really special about it as it is now...