[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Grail King]

Just to put out there, this is not a love story of SanSan, it is one story out of many of the metamorphosis of a young naive girl to a young independent woman who may or may not be a player in this world, but will be strong enough and wise enough to make it on her own, what better way to honor her parents, to be as strong as her lady mother, as honorable as her lord father and a bit more savvy in politics.

And just to remind everyone she's doing this without the protection of her wolf.

[Maroucia]

So fifteen minutes instead of ten and there'd be no complaining? Then that seems like a petty complaint.

Seems like this thread is the perfect place for my petty SanSan complaints, don't you think? ;)

[Grail King]

The problem with Sansa's scenes in this episode is that she a)implied that she was praying for Tyrion's death (a departure from the books, where she prayed for his safety at this point, adding him as last when she prayed in the sept) and b)that non-book readers will not understand why she refused to escape with Sandor. Especially when it comes out that Sandor indeed escaped and Sansa is still stuck as a captive, next week. Right now, quite a few people watching the show think she actually went along. What reason does show-Sansa have to not go with him, other than she might be afraid of the danger (but book-Sansa is actually brave)?

As for Sandor, like many characters he has been softened to some degree - much like Tyrion has been softened. Some things just wouldn't come over very well on TV, I suspect, and apparently the producers don't want the audience to lose sympathy with a number of characters. Sandor apparently is one of them, which is not necessarily bad for any future involvement with Sansa.

As far as Tyrion, he's a two edge sword, yes he's kinder, but he's a Lannister and Sansa stated she will teach her children to hate Lannisters, and don't forget the surrounded by lions statement which Tyrion did hear, he's aware she hates him because he's a lannister.

I started explained to my wife the scene about leaving with Sandor and his demeanor and she stated just the way he tells Sansa how he likes killing and other issues she wouldn't go with him either and even though a dog won't lie to you lots of dogs will turn on you.

My wife doesn't read the book, but understood the attraction she called it a Fatal Attraction.

[1234567]

The problem with Sansa's scenes in this episode is that she a)implied that she was praying for Tyrion's death (a departure from the books, where she prayed for his safety at this point, adding him as last when she prayed in the sept) and b)that non-book readers will not understand why she refused to escape with Sandor. Especially when it comes out that Sandor indeed escaped and Sansa is still stuck as a captive, next week. Right now, quite a few people watching the show think she actually went along. What reason does show-Sansa have to not go with him, other than she might be afraid of the danger (but book-Sansa is actually brave)?

It will be even worse when he teams up with Arya. If he is as toned down with her as he has been this season, everyone is going to think she was a complete idiot for not going.

As for Sandor, like many characters he has been softened to some degree - much like Tyrion has been softened. Some things just wouldn't come over very well on TV, I suspect, and apparently the producers don't want the audience to lose sympathy with a number of characters. Sandor apparently is one of them, which is not necessarily bad for any future involvement with Sansa.

True and their friendship or support is difficult in the books and even more difficult to portray on TV, especially the attraction angle from Sandor. The whitewashing of Tyrion however will be difficult for Sansa's arc next season, although I like that they seem to have set up him admiring her and her making it absolutely clear she sees him as a Lannister.

Also at least one other scene between them would have set the storyline up better. An exposition on his background or fear of fire, would have helped. Or the "dog will die for you but never lie to you line".

It is frustrating to see your favourite storyline basically disappear, but then compared with what they have done to Cat and Robb and Dany and Jon etc. it is not so bad. To be honest compared to the train wreck that is Robb / Talissa it is not bad.

[Fragile Bird]

Once again, as usual, outta Likes. Rapsie and Grail King, I'm talking to you!

[Melifeather]

I never "saw" the Sansa and Sandor interaction in the books as a "romance" like the San/San fans have. I would be disgusted if they end up together, because the origins were not the foundation for a healthy relationship. I am hoping that GRRM's portrayal of the scene in the tv version last night was deliberate on his part to put an end to the San/San speculations.

[Wouter]

As far as Tyrion, he's a two edge sword, yes he's kinder, but he's a Lannister and Sansa stated she will teach her children to hate Lannisters, and don't forget the surrounded by lions statement which Tyrion did hear, he's aware she hates him because he's a lannister.

Sansa doesn't actually hate Tyrion in the books though - certainly not at this point (later on she is ambiguous about him and no doubt there are times she hated him, like right during the wedding for example). Moreover, in the books at least Tyrion says in public (with her present) that he won't agree to a prisoner swap on Robb's terms and that the way she is treated will depend on Robb's action. Considering how Sansa is being treated by the Lannisters, with lots of beatings, this wasn't a nice thing to say even though Tyrion feels some guilt about it (but Sansa cannot read his thoughts) and he actually stops the worst beating. In the books, Tyrion wasn't all that nice to Sansa but she still feels gratitude enough for his few kindnesses that she prays for him to survive (after a bit of hesitation maybe). In the show Tyrion seems very nice to Sansa throughout (OK, he still fights for the wrong side but personally he has been very nice to her) but yet Sansa seems to lump him in with Joffrey in her prayers, by her own admission.

I guess they are preparing the ground for their situation later, but this way it risks being seen as mostly Sansa's fault. I hope they at least keep it so that he doesn't give her warning in advance; it's important to understand her reaction, that she is ambushed completely by all the Lannisters without any regards for her feelings whatsover - including by Tyrion.

[Maroucia]

As far as Tyrion, he's a two edge sword, yes he's kinder, but he's a Lannister and Sansa stated she will teach her children to hate Lannisters, and don't forget the surrounded by lions statement which Tyrion did hear, he's aware she hates him because he's a lannister.

I started explained to my wife the scene about leaving with Sandor and his demeanor and she stated just the way he tells Sansa how he likes killing and other issues she wouldn't go with him either and even though a dog won't lie to you lots of dogs will turn on you.

My wife doesn't read the book, but understood the attraction she called it a Fatal Attraction.

I'm glad to hear your wife's thoughts about that scene. It's great to see how those things are perceived by non-readers since they don't have the same expectations than we do. I hope most people will end up with the same analysis than your spouse, but I doubt it, especially for the why didn't she go with him? part...

For my part, I’m slowly going down the rage/disappointment high that I was on since yesterday. I have watched the bedroom scene again, and it’s not that bad, I can now start to appreciate it. It’s just a thousand leagues from the book version of it.

Still, I agree with other posters that it could have been way worst than it is.

[Lyanna Stark]

I never "saw" the Sansa and Sandor interaction in the books as a "romance" like the San/San fans have. I would be disgusted if they end up together, because the origins were not the foundation for a healthy relationship. I am hoping that GRRM's portrayal of the scene in the tv version last night was deliberate on his part to put an end to the San/San speculations.

Dislike it all you like, but read what's actually in the book before you're having a fit. I linked the actual book quotes some pages back, but I guess I need to link them again since people have all sorts of odd notions about this.

How about this for some actual source material instead of baseless speculation?

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't think SanSan is definitely dead, but the TV version of it lacks the punch of their relationship in the book, which was compelling, if not sensible or age-appropriate. The show got it right three times - when Sandor helps Sansa and prevents her from killing Joffrey at the end of Season One, when he verbally tag-teams with her against Joffrey to save Ser Dontos, and when he saves her from the rapists during the riot. They set up his concern for Sansa, and, it seems to me, his attraction to her; but not the complete depth of the characters' connection; that she touches him physically and emotionally and actually brings him to tears with her song. Maybe if the writers had cut out Tyrion's chat with Varys, they could have shown that last night.

I don't know that the "Blackwater" treatment of SanSan portends much for the future of the characters' relationship in the books, though; considering the changes in other characters' motives and personality and action. The SanSan in Season 2 could have been worse (Robb/Talisa, shudder).

[Aslerys]

Ok this might be a silly question but are you sure that this is the last time they see each other?

I read the books and I know that the bedroom scene is the last time they were together but I could swear that I saw a picture where Sandor is pushing Sansa against the wall in the stairs outside her bedroom, she is looking really scared and he seems to be very angry and I don't remember to see this in the show...

But maybe it was a deleted scene or something...

[Fragile Bird]

I don't think SanSan is definitely dead, but the TV version of it lacks the punch of their relationship in the book, which was compelling, if not sensible or age-appropriate. The show got it right three times - when Sandor helps Sansa and prevents her from killing Joffrey at the end of Season One, when he verbally tag-teams with her against Joffrey to save Ser Dontos, and when he saves her from the rapists during the riot. They set up his concern for Sansa, and, it seems to me, his attraction to her; but not the complete depth of the characters' connection; that she touches him physically and emotionally and actually brings him to tears with her song. Maybe if the writers had cut out Tyrion's chat with Varys, they could have shown that last night.

Exactly - and exactly why I was upset that they gave LF the role of telling Sansa how Sandor's face was burned. If they had kept that scene between Sandor and Sansa, I think the relationship would be much stronger than what it is now.

[Fragile Bird]

Ok this might be a silly question but are you sure that this is the last time they see each other?

I read the books and I know that the bedroom scene is the last time they were together but I could swear that I saw a picture where Sandor is pushing Sansa against the wall in the stairs outside her bedroom, she is looking really scared and he seems to be very angry and I don't remember to see this in the show...

But maybe it was a deleted scene or something...

Sandor's left Dodge. You don't say "Fuck the king" to his face and then hang around.

ETA: And especially not when Tywin Lannister rides into town and wins the day.

[Katydid]

Dislike it all you like, but read what's actually in the book before you're having a fit. I linked the actual book quotes some pages back, but I guess I need to link them again since people have all sorts of odd notions about this.

How about this for some actual source material instead of baseless speculation?

And the source material proves...what, exactly?

Different interpretations run rampant in a series like this. For example, I myself don't see a shred of romantic insinuation between Sansa & the Hound. She's terrified of him, but on some level, she is able to recognize him as protection. In the future, she thinks of him at times when she feels threatened...times when she'd be happy for his protection. She knows he's a dangerous killer, but also believes he wouldn't kill her.

And with regards to the non-kiss, she remembers his lips as being "cruel." He left her with a "cruel" kiss and a bloody cloak - - hardly the stuff of romance.

I believe Sansa romanticizes that moment (invents the memory of a kiss) because she needs to cling to the dying remnants of her girlish ideals about knights swooping in and saving ladies. The Hound came drunkenly and forcefully at her, threatened her with a knife, but at his core, he wouldn't have hurt her and was trying to help her. That's what she believes, though that doesn't stop her from inventing the memory of a "cruel" kiss. I think that word is pretty significant. She could have remembered it being surprisingly gentle, or even surprisingly passionate; instead, she took the scary route. That kiss, nor the Hound, isn't something she'd be longing for, IMO.

The Hound, on the other hand, later regrets not raping her that night. Had he gone through with that atrocity, I wonder how different Sansa's memories would have been.

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed her at his throat and the blood ran down her fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he crawled into bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish you were Lady,” she said.

This dream speaks volumes, IMO, as to Sansa's views of the Hound. She dreams of Joffrey dying then morphing into Robb dying; quite a horror. She dreams of Tyrion (an undesirable) climbing into her bed; he morphs into the Hound and she wakes immediately. Had that part of her dream been something she'd have wanted to continue, I don't think she'd have awaken. For instance, had Tyrion morphed into Ser Loras, her unconscious mind may have allowed the dream to continue on a little longer. It would have been pleasant, as Ser Loras was someone she's attracted to. But it was a disturbing dream all around, and the Hound's appearance was the breaking point, which caused her to wake up.

[Grail King]

I was disappointed that they are given Sandors line about lairs to LF, but than I can see it if he's also going to be the new protector of her, hope it comes back and bites LF in the ass.

[jons nissa]

And with regards to the non-kiss, she remembers his lips as being "cruel." He left her with a "cruel" kiss and a bloody cloak - - hardly the stuff of romance.

I believe Sansa romanticizes that moment (invents the memory of a kiss) because she needs to cling to the dying remnants of her girlish ideals about knights swooping in and saving ladies. The Hound came drunkenly and forcefully at her, threatened her with a knife, but at his core, he wouldn't have hurt her and was trying to help her. That's what she believes, though that doesn't stop her from inventing the memory of a "cruel" kiss. I think that word is pretty significant. She could have remembered it being surprisingly gentle, or even surprisingly passionate; instead, she took the scary route. That kiss, nor the Hound, isn't something she'd be longing for, IMO.

and let's not forget what is actually written on that night:

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. “Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.”

turning that into a memory of first kiss is really problematic which is what i think grrm is trying to say about the scene.

i wasn't sure if had the full picture of sansan and found a fan posting all their interactions from the book on her lj page. at least i think it's all of them. takes about 5 of 6 minutes to read through.

http://sansaxsandor.livejournal.com/1977.html

[brashcandy]

And the source material proves...what, exactly?

Different interpretations run rampant in a series like this. For example, I myself don't see a shred of romantic insinuation between Sansa & the Hound. She's terrified of him, but on some level, she is able to recognize him as protection. In the future, she thinks of him at times when she feels threatened...times when she'd be happy for his protection. She knows he's a dangerous killer, but also believes he wouldn't kill her.

:bang: :bang: If I had a dollar for everytime someone interpreted this relationship wrong... well... I would be able to buy a lot more aspirin for my headaches.

And with regards to the non-kiss, she remembers his lips as being "cruel." He left her with a "cruel" kiss and a bloody cloak - - hardly the stuff of romance.

Just because she thinks of the kiss as cruel doesn't mean that she doesn't think of him in that way. Yes, this is not the stuff of "romance" - if by that you mean the girl meets the handsome prince and he's wonderful and sweet and they fall madly in love. Isn't that what Sansa's whole arc has to been getting her to see the folly of? She's a long way past romanticizing these kinds of men: that's why she can no longer have fantasies about Loras Tyrell. She's facing the truth about Sandor, in that yeah, he's not a "nice man" and he's probably a man who would kiss a woman harshly, but it doesn't negate the fact that she is thinking about it and romanticizing it. She almost sounds bitter in that scene because he took something from her and has no left her with very little.

I believe Sansa romanticizes that moment (invents the memory of a kiss) because she needs to cling to the dying remnants of her girlish ideals about knights swooping in and saving ladies. The Hound came drunkenly and forcefully at her, threatened her with a knife, but at his core, he wouldn't have hurt her and was trying to help her. That's what she believes, though that doesn't stop her from inventing the memory of a "cruel" kiss. I think that word is pretty significant. She could have remembered it being surprisingly gentle, or even surprisingly passionate; instead, she took the scary route. That kiss, nor the Hound, isn't something she'd be longing for, IMO.

There's nothing to indicate that in her memory she was scared of the kiss. In fact she seems quite fascinated with it. And no, she's not trying to cling to any girlish dreams. That's why she quickly dismisses thoughts of Loras.

The Hound, on the other hand, later regrets not raping her that night. Had he gone through with that atrocity, I wonder how different Sansa's memories would have been.

Now you've entered the realm of pure make believe. He never regretted not raping her. He regrets leaving her to suffer with the Lannisters, and the indignity of being married to Tyrion. That is what he regrets. I would suggest a closer reading of the scene again? Or perhaps the link that Lyanna Stark was so gracious to provide? Or maybe the From Pawn to Player Sansa re-read threads?

This dream speaks volumes, IMO, as to Sansa's views of the Hound. She dreams of Joffrey dying then morphing into Robb dying; quite a horror. She dreams of Tyrion (an undesirable) climbing into her bed; he morphs into the Hound and she wakes immediately. Had that part of her dream been something she'd have wanted to continue, I don't think she'd have awaken. For instance, had Tyrion morphed into Ser Loras, her unconscious mind may have allowed the dream to continue on a little longer. It would have been pleasant, as Ser Loras was someone she's attracted to. But it was a disturbing dream all around, and the Hound's appearance was the breaking point, which caused her to wake up.

The dream is ambiguous, but your interpretation makes little sense when we actually put the dream into the context of what we learn later on in AFFC. When Randa Royce asks her if she knows what goes on in the marriage bed, she thinks of Sandor. We have her thinking that he kissed her as well, and consciously rejecting a fantasy of Loras Tyrell. This equates to a really suggestive possibility that her dream was indeed an erotic one about the Hound. As for her waking up directly afterwards, don't you know Martin is the biggest troll? He isn't going to give away all his goodies in one go.

[deleted01]

I noticed that as well. It was as if George was trying to say he intended more of a daughter-ish/protector role as the core of their relationship...not a romantic one. He is drawn to her innocence, he wants to protect her, but it's not a sexual attraction.

I always thought Sansa later remembering a kiss that never happened was just her childish tendency to romanticize everything trying hard to stay alive. She's terrified of the Hound and in no way attracted to him, yet she recalls him kissing her? Sounds like a random firing out of one of her beloved songs about Knights saving Ladies.

:agree:

[L’Age d’or]

They are trying to ease up on Hound's sick shit since they don't have much time to make him sympathetic gradually, it seems to me the show likes to further develop this misunderstood rabid dog theme around Sandor. I was waiting for the forced song though...

[Woman of War]

Thank you for the link, jon's nissa. After reading this I had the distinct feeling that at some points or in some aspects Sandor did for Sansa, albeit in a cruel wretched way, what Ned should have done. Education about the life as it is.