Is Cersei really a good mother?

[House Draper]

Would the devil be a good father? To all Satanists, this is a rhetorical question.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

She didn't have to sire her children with Jaime. That's high treason. I really like (and feel for) Tommen and Myrcella, but Cersei's goal has always been to achieve power. And when did I say her goal isn't righteous anyway (not that it is, but you quoted me saying I did)? I criticised her methods. How is sending innocents to be tortured and murdered, or alienating and fabricating fake charges against allies (using torture and murder, of course) a good way to protect her children?

Stannis has done some dark deeds when pushed into a corner, but his goal is a righteous one and everything he does is in attempt to achieve this

Everything Cersei mostly does is to ensure that her children survives. And I blame Maggie here. I admit Cersei is rather terrible, and her means cannot be defended. But you need not quote Stannis and his righteous goal because, ensuring survival is a rather worthy cause. Why would you bring the incest, yes it does make Cersei's job a million times much more difficult. (Like tying a stone to your feet before going on deep waters) thats beside the point.

I can't be sure if you're joking.

They're born of incestous treason between the queen and her brother.

Joffrey didn't do anything to help the cause of the inbred.

His own family believes him to be worthless, and craven, aside from his clearly delusional mother.

Not to mention, that the inbred Lannisters stole the throne that countless good men died to procure. That must be answered.

Ned gave her the option to flee.

She chose to stay, so her life and that of her children are forfeit.

One down, two more to go.

Melisandre needs more leeches, and i'd volunteer blood.

You are barking at the wrong tree here. Can't believe I am protecting Cersei, lol. I don't like her one bit. But the deed is done, all that shes left with is her children, and Maggie's prophecy. Again Cersei doesn't know what else to be other than being an entitled bitch. If she did what Ned asked and flee, she thinks she and her children would not survive.

[MavsWorld]

I'm not sure where you get that Robert was aware of Joffrey, other than his existence. At some point, he admits to Ned that he doesnt know what happened with Joffrey, but its obvious he has had no interest in parenting. And Cersei does admit to Tyrion that she is unable to control Joffrey when he arrives at KL.

And why should Tommen have independent thoughts about ruling? He is a child. The whole point, (that I gathered, anyway,) is that Cersei is trying to correct the mistakes she made with Joffrey. I'm not saying that she's right, but I do understand her motive.

Your post is condescending and rude. And it's your opinion, just like my post was my opinion. If you would like to have a thoughtful discussion about Cersei, And her motives, I would love that. If you're going to posture and act like we're talking heads on Fox News, i'm going to have to pass.

I don't have the books with me as I'm in Japan so I can't check, but doesn't Cersei at some point mention that when Robert disciplined Joff she threatened him because she was scared for Joff's life?

Anyway, I think you are wrong about her correcting her previous mistakes. Cersei doesn't want Tommen to have any of his own thoughts, just to parrot hers, in the same way that she wants pretty much everyone to parrot her thoughts. Evidence for this being the small council she chooses, the company she keeps and the fact that if Tommen says anything she hasn't thought of, she threatens him.

She is an awful parent and I question her ability to love anyone. Evidence of her bad parenting is her current parenting of Tommen, e.g. not giving him any freedom to make decisions and learn from his mistakes and her raising off Joff. Evidence of her inability to love comes from her own point of view. If you listen to the reasons she gives for her and Jaime it's all about them being the same. The second he does things that show they are not one and the same all her love disappears. Furthermore, when she thinks of him again after, it is about her own protection or about how she is better than him. As to her children, the way she treats them is as possessions, not people, and therefore she is unable to extend to them a human love. I believe her anger over Tommen and Myrcella's placement in safer locations is more over lack of control than love. Also note that when she deeply upsets Tommen she feels no regret. She shows a lack of empathy for her children or Jaime, which is something required for love.

As to romantic love, notice that with Robert she was willing to love him when he was a status symbol, but the second he showed that someone else was better than her she turned on him for the whole marriage. I'm not saying that Robert would have been a good husband, but she didn't even try to love him or get him to love her.

[Elder Sister]

I don't have the books with me as I'm in Japan so I can't check, but doesn't Cersei at some point mention that when Robert disciplined Joff she threatened him because she was scared for Joff's life?

Anyway, I think you are wrong about her correcting her previous mistakes. Cersei doesn't want Tommen to have any of his own thoughts, just to parrot hers, in the same way that she wants pretty much everyone to parrot her thoughts. Evidence for this being the small council she chooses, the company she keeps and the fact that if Tommen says anything she hasn't thought of, she threatens him.

She is an awful parent and I question her ability to love anyone. Evidence of her bad parenting is her current parenting of Tommen, e.g. not giving him any freedom to make decisions and learn from his mistakes and her raising off Joff. Evidence of her inability to love comes from her own point of view. If you listen to the reasons she gives for her and Jaime it's all about them being the same. The second he does things that show they are not one and the same all her love disappears. Furthermore, when she thinks of him again after, it is about her own protection or about how she is better than him. As to her children, the way she treats them is as possessions, not people, and therefore she is unable to extend to them a human love. I believe her anger over Tommen and Myrcella's placement in safer locations is more over lack of control than love. Also note that when she deeply upsets Tommen she feels no regret. She shows a lack of empathy for her children or Jaime, which is something required for love.

As to romantic love, notice that with Robert she was willing to love him when he was a status symbol, but the second he showed that someone else was better than her she turned on him for the whole marriage. I'm not saying that Robert would have been a good husband, but she didn't even try to love him or get him to love her.

I'm not going to argue with your point on Cersei and romantic love; I think you're right. She's too selfish and self centered to put another person before her.

But I do think she sincerely loves her children. The whole time she's in captivity, she is thinking of Tommen, and the first person she wants to see once she's free is Tommen. And reading her POV, it's not about control or power. She loves him and is worried about him.

[The Frosted King]

I hear what you're saying, but don't really agree. I think Stannis goes to the Wall mainly at Melisandre's prompting, and less out of his own motivation. And I think her agenda is totally different from what she's presenting.

Stannis is not the subject of this thread, but to me, he's just less obvious with his motives than Cersei. He tortures people through burning, cheats on his wife, gives no thought whatsoever to his one child, and murders his brother through the use of black magic.

But we almost never see the amount of hatred aimed at him that we see aimed at Cersei.

Stannis clearly goes because of Davos. Melisandre was asking him to give her Edric, Davos was asking him to put the kingdom before the throne.

I don't get how you don't comprehend Stannis.

He's the most baldfaced character in the books.

He fought a seige to retain his families ancestral seat against the Tyrells.

He then served his brother as the master of ships.

He discovered his brothers wife put horns on his brother, and robbed him of his trueborn heirs.

He told his brothers old friend and mentor, only to have him mysteriously die.

He retreated to his seat to begin making plans.

His brother then dies, and now Stannis is the true king of westeros.

The rest of the realm ignores the truth staring plainly at them from the Ironthrone.

Stannis knows what is right, and what is wrong.

He gave Renly the chance to do what is right.

Renly thought that the greater army made his might right, but Stannis proved the fire rises.

Stannis doesn't torture people through burning, he executes them.

He does cheat on his wife with Melisandre, but he's not seeking to supplant her, as Cersei did to Robert.

Melisandre needs power, and a kings blood has that. Stannis is the only king near at hand, so he does what he must.

Stannis doesn't spend much time with his child, right. But that was the way of the time.

Children were reared by septons/septa's and master at arms.

Ned and Cat were likely more involved, due to the north being more hands on in regards to everything.

Stannis is the man who does what he must, because there is right and wrong.

Cersei is the woman who does what she wants, and gives no thought at all to whats right or wrong.

How the hell can you expect both to be hated, when only one has ever operated in a way that would garner hatred?

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I think in her own twisted way she does care about her children, but I don't consider her a good mother at all - I think she just uses her children to enhance her own power. Notice how she compares Tommen - who is a good hearted and innocent kid, if a bit weak and stupid - unfavorably to Joffrey, who I don't think I even need to explain what's wrong with him. Kevan Lannister said it best.

[Elder Sister]

Stannis clearly goes because of Davos. Melisandre was asking him to give her Edric, Davos was asking him to put the kingdom before the throne.

I don't get how you don't comprehend Stannis.

He's the most baldfaced character in the books.

He fought a seige to retain his families ancestral seat against the Tyrells.

He then served his brother as the master of ships.

He discovered his brothers wife put horns on his brother, and robbed him of his trueborn heirs.

He told his brothers old friend and mentor, only to have him mysteriously die.

He retreated to his seat to begin making plans.

His brother then dies, and now Stannis is the true king of westeros.

The rest of the realm ignores the truth staring plainly at them from the Ironthrone.

Stannis knows what is right, and what is wrong.

He gave Renly the chance to do what is right.

Renly thought that the greater army made his might right, but Stannis proved the fire rises.

Stannis doesn't torture people through burning, he executes them.

He does cheat on his wife with Melisandre, but he's not seeking to supplant her, as Cersei did to Robert.

Melisandre needs power, and a kings blood has that. Stannis is the only king near at hand, so he does what he must.

Stannis doesn't spend much time with his child, right. But that was the way of the time.

Children were reared by septons/septa's and master at arms.

Ned and Cat were likely more involved, due to the north being more hands on in regards to everything.

Stannis is the man who does what he must, because there is right and wrong.

Cersei is the woman who does what she wants, and gives no thought at all to whats right or wrong.

How the hell can you expect both to be hated, when only one has ever operated in a way that would garner hatred?

I don't see Stannis that way at all...sorry. He's just a hypocrite to me. But that's what makes the board fun...everyone has their favorites. :)

[Spiderweaves]

As many others have said, I think Cersei loves her children but only as an extension of herself. She offers a very good example of the "narcissistic mother": she takes any attack or criticism of her children as applying to her. In her mind, her children don't really exist as independent beings.

I wish we had more scenes of Myrcella and Cersei together--I want to see how Cersei deals with having a daughter. Her blind adoration of Joff and Tommen, in some ways, is less complicated. Her sons give her a chance to indulge in her always-raging penis envy.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Being a good parent involves teaching right from wrong. The only one of her children that Cersei truly loves is Joffrey because he is just like her. She hates the fact that Tommen is actually nice to people even though everyone else thinks that he could be a much better ruler than Joffrey and she only likes myrcella because she's pretty and a girl.

I love the scene where all the lannisters are discussing how Joffrey got so messed up and Cersei tries to blame Robert but Tywin and everyone else knows right away that it's Cersei's fault.

[tze]

But I do think she sincerely loves her children. The whole time she's in captivity, she is thinking of Tommen, and the first person she wants to see once she's free is Tommen. And reading her POV, it's not about control or power. She loves him and is worried about him.

I think the bolded part is the key here. Cersei was in captivity, unable to exercise any power or control over anything whatsoever. And the only reason she was in captivity in the first place was because the High Septon's authority in the space in which Cersei found herself turned out to eclipse that of the Queen Dowager (as she became upon being stripped of the regency).

I don't think she kept thinking about being with Tommen, about Tommen "needing her", out of love. I think her thoughts turned to Tommen because she saw Tommen as the only path by which she could ever hope to "regain" enough authority so that 1) she could get herself out of this situation, and 2) nobody could ever have the authority to imprison her like this again. If Tommen dies, Cersei's power dies. If Tommen is separated from Cersei in perpetuity, Cersei can't use him to increase her personal power. As she's being shaved and stripped for her walk of shame, she thinks about how one day she'll have the septa's tongue ripped out with hot pincers, "and that will be hilarious". She's not thinking about being with her little boy for his own sake, she's thinking about what power being with her little boy will grant to her. She doesn't love Tommen selflessly, she loves Tommen as the instrument that will grant Cersei enough power to take out her foes.

[Lady B Pudding]

I honestly believe that Cersei isn't a good mom but that's because my mom is such a good mom and I take my example of being a good mom from her. Cersei does love her children but favored Joffery over her younger two and turns a blind eye to Joffery's brutal tendencies. I don't really think her parenting misgivings come from how she was raised. Her mother died when she was young and her father taught her to be prideful and showing love was weakness.

[Elder Sister]

I think the bolded part is the key here. Cersei was in captivity, unable to exercise any power or control over anything whatsoever. And the only reason she was in captivity in the first place was because the High Septon's authority in the space in which Cersei found herself turned out to eclipse that of the Queen Dowager (as she became upon being stripped of the regency).

I don't think she kept thinking about being with Tommen, about Tommen "needing her", out of love. I think her thoughts turned to Tommen because she saw Tommen as the only path by which she could ever hope to "regain" enough authority so that 1) she could get herself out of this situation, and 2) nobody could ever have the authority to imprison her like this again. If Tommen dies, Cersei's power dies. If Tommen is separated from Cersei in perpetuity, Cersei can't use him to increase her personal power. As she's being shaved and stripped for her walk of shame, she thinks about how one day she'll have the septa's tongue ripped out with hot pincers, "and that will be hilarious". She's not thinking about being with her little boy for his own sake, she's thinking about what power being with her little boy will grant to her. She doesn't love Tommen selflessly, she loves Tommen as the instrument that will grant Cersei enough power to take out her foes.

I don't agree at all. In reading her POV, in particular the last days that she's being held, in her conversations with her uncle, her sole concern is getting out, and Tommen's safety. She is afraid for him; that he will be poisoned as Joffrey was.

Of course, I'm sure all of the Cersei haters will say that it's simply because she's power mad.

[Spiderweaves]

But I do think she sincerely loves her children. The whole time she's in captivity, she is thinking of Tommen, and the first person she wants to see once she's free is Tommen. And reading her POV, it's not about control or power. She loves him and is worried about him.

She doesn't love Tommen selflessly, she loves Tommen as the instrument that will grant Cersei enough power to take out her foes.

These interpretations aren't mutually exclusive, I don't think. Cersei can have a passionate concern for her children's well-being while also never forgetting the role they play in her own quest for power. She is nothing if not complex.

(OT: That's one reason I love the actress playing Cersei on the HBO show. She really shows us all of those nuances.)

Does/did Tywin love his children in a selfless way? How would we compare his connection to his offspring with Cersei's?

[Elder Sister]

These interpretations aren't mutually exclusive, I don't think. Cersei can have a passionate concern for her children's well-being while also never forgetting the role they play in her own quest for power. Cersei is nothing if not complex.

(OT: That's one reason I love the actress playing Cersei on the HBO show. She really shows us all of those nuances.)

Does/did Tywin love his children in a selfless way? How would we compare his connection to his offspring with Cersei's?

I totally agree with your assessment. I just reread her last several POVs in aDwD, and while it's obvious she thinks of Tommen as a pawn, it's also obvious that she loves him and is frightened for him in a motherly way. And yes, she's complex, for sure.

[Spiderweaves]

While the content itself was horrible, I loved Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter. It gave me hope that, going forward, Cersei will maybe seem less dumb than she had in FFC,

if Cersei only saw her children as pawns, I don't know if she would have been so upset about Myrcella going to Dorne. That was a pretty savvy move on Tyrion's part, and Cersei hated it.

OTOH, maybe she figured she could make a better marriage match for Myrcella herself, and her patronizing brother should have just stayed out of it.

[mcb]

While the content itself was horrible, I loved Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter. It gave me hope that, going forward, Cersei will maybe seem less dumb than she had in FFC,

if Cersei only saw her children as pawns, I don't know if she would have been so upset about Myrcella going to Dorne. That was a pretty savvy move on Tyrion's part, and Cersei hated it.

They were her pawns, and Tyrion hadn't asked for permission to play them. BTW, Craster was just as furious when he suspected someone of messing with his daughters. They were possessive, that's all.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

The only person who Cersei ever loved, other than herself, was Rhaegar, and that was more of an infatuation. When he was denied to her at a young age it lead to her becoming bitter about everything.

That part in the show where she tells Ned about having loved Robert once was added for dramatic effect. In the books she thinks about how she could never forgive Robert for killing Rhaegar and denying her her one true love. Having to marry him was just salt in the wound and she vowed to never have a child of his.

[yolkboy]

I think Kevan, a very decent and straighforward guy it seemed, highlighted that Cersei was a terrible mother in aDwD.

Trust the Kevan.

[Light a wight tonight]

Cersei is a good mother compared to Lysa Arryn. Maybe.

She spoils her eldest and allows him to get away with all sorts of antisocial activites wile ignoring his two younger siblings. Which is likely why they aren't so fucked up.

[Fat Mac]

Cersei loves her children. Yet she is an atrocious mother.