Vote: Who was the father of Ashara's child?

[Teal'c]

The Red Snake.

[LordBloodraven]

The father is certainly the Ned. Brandon might appear as an irresponsible player for taking the maidenhead of Lady Dustin but Ned and Ashara makes more sense. Barristan calling Ned "Stark" is not so extraordinary: Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin all used to call Ned "Stark". And for Barristan, it was used for one instance. Ned knowing about the tower of Joy, going to Starfall, having Wylla at her service for a time in Winterfell all points to him as being the father of Ashara's child. And Edric Dayne was told by his family that Ned and Ashara were in love. Eddard and Ashara might have planned to marry since he was a second son and they were in love but the war disrupted all that. And Ned wasn't certainly serious and stern during his youth, as he was during AGOT

[corbon]

And Ned wasn't certainly serious and stern during his youth, as he was during AGOT

According to Robert, whom he shared his youth with, he was always serious and stern.

"“You were never the boy you were”, Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time …"

[Queen Cersei I]

Brandon Stark has my vote for the babydaddy, but I'd say Ned was the one she fell in love with a year later, and the one she supposedly (though not in actuality) killed herself for.

What we know of Brandon does not constitute any type of proof, and many point out (with some reason) that simply because he had a thing with one noble lady (Barbary Ryswell) does not necessarily mean he was a seducer in the habit of bedding and abandoning pretty noble girls all over Westeros. However, here is what we do know.

--We know very little of Brandon. What we are told is probably (though not definitely) fraught with meaning in terms of his general behavior and overall character.

--Brandon seduced Barbary Ryswell, and then left her.

--Was it truly a one time thing, with Brandon and Barbary as the starcrossed lovers, as Barbary clearly likes to tell herself? Perhaps. However, it is notable that Barbary's report of Brandon's behavior (quickly starting up with her, turning on the charm, "not shying away from taking what he wanted", and, most of all, never telling her of his long standing betrothal to a beautiful female from another major house until the end of their little affair, makes me suspect whether it was a scenario of true love or merely Brandon wanting to get laid. Furthermore, his words to Barbary (no really-- I don't love her! I love you, baby! I'm just doing it for House Stark, sweartogod, baby!) seemed like the false assurances of a practiced seducer.

--A few of Brandon's comments to Barbary that she repeats to us make him sound both excessively hot blooded, very highly sexed and, well, a little less than classy. "I want it sharp enough to shave the hair off a woman's cunt," for instance (about his sword) is merely one example.

--Ashara's interactions with Brandon during the flashback. Though it may sound as though (initially) there was a "thing" between Ashara and Ned; in retrospect it just looks as though Ned comes off as a shy, awkward "nice guy" whom Ashara is kind to and dances with at the request of his handsome, tall, charming, and considerably more confident Brandon. (Who is also quite the catch in being heir to Winterfell, to boot.) Ashara's heart could have been overwealmed by the guy in the corner to scared to approach her; but there are indications that the hot, charming, charismatic and confident Brandon was the one who really made the impression.

--Though they only knew each other during a tournament (unlike some other men in court, who probably knew Ashara for a while), there were a number of factors that probably led Brandon and Ashara to hooking only after a few days of knowing each other. These include Ashara's far more sexually openminded, permissive Dornish background; Brandon's many charms; the festive, wild environment that seemed to have even let down Ned Starks inhibitions a bit; and perhaps Brandon's habit of not letting his conquests know he was taken until after they'd slept together.

That said, I do think it was Ned whom Ashara turned to after the business at the Tower of Joy, the two did sleep together, and that they fell in love. I also think that duty called Ned back to Cat, and that after that Ashara found out about Young Grif, and decided to help her old friend Elia by faking her death and raising him.

Indications that support this theory:

--Rumors about Ashara and Ned.

--Ned's reaction to these rumors. He freaks out and terrifies Cat when she mentions Ashara, forbids her from ever doing so again, and pretty much goes nuts? An admirable desire to keep Cat from the truth about Brandon|? I guess I could believe that, however...

--Ned has an exchange with Robert where he sounds like an unquestioningly guilty man. We all know (or strongly suspect) that Jon is not Ned's kid. Yet Ned sounds guilty when he "confesses" to Robert. When Robert presses Ned for info about the mysterious Wylla, Ned says, "Robert, I beg of you, for the love you say you bear me, please let it be." Then: "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Cat, in the sight of gods and men." All this talk sounds like that of a genuinely guilty man. IMO, he sounds like he has cheated. If Ashara and Ned fell in love and slept together shortly after the tower of joy incident, then this reaction would make perfect sense.

--Later, Ned thinks, "Robert Baratheon could swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark remembered his promises. That was his curse." Well, if he promised love to Ashara, then had to go back to Cat, then, on top of it all, had to tell Ashara that "oops, after I confessed love to you and we hooked up, I made this bastard with this hot wetnurse over there, Wylla! Hope ya don't mind!" Then it would make sense for Ned to feel a sense of responsibility for Ashara's supposed suicide.

So, I'd wager that Brandon was the father of Ashara's stillborn, but that it was Ned who was the "Stark" that Ashara "turned to" in Baristan's recollection.

[ARYa_Nym]

Also, Ned seemed jealous of Brandon.

"...father promised me to your brother Brandon." That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything..."

"Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them..."

[Ser Leftwich]

Brandon.

Also, while I think that Barristan Selmy is a little unreliable as a source of specific information he was likely in the right place to learn something about what happened between Ashara and a Stark at Harrrenhal and possible consequences.

Ashara was newly attending to Elia in KL, so likely went back to KL after the tourney. There are many allusions to what members of the Kingsguard see and hear happening when they are around. If she became noticeably pregnant, questions would be asked, so she got shipped back to Starfall. Selmy does not know all the details.

[Helled]

I'd say Brandon Stark. Barristan seems convinced that the baby's father was a Stark, and I just don't think it was Ned for some reason (maybe because I agree with the theory of Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents). Plus, Benjen was way too young.

[Maxpey]

What inferences?

Do you have more than "the shy wolf danced with her" (as did several others) and rumours that relate closely to the post ToJ sequence, rather than Harrenhal sequence?

Two points here.

First, she only 'supposedly' killed herself. If she didn't kill herself then the timing of the stillborn is irrelevant.

Second, it is only Barristan musing, guessing, mentally exploring ideas, wondering if losing the baby was part of the reason why she killed herself. So it isn't reasonable to discount the baby based on timeline because if she killed herself Barristan wonders if maybe it was partly because of losing the baby. That is pretty tortuous...

Actually there are several things, but lets leave that for the appropriate threads. Note that we are talking 'suggestive' not 'proven'.

And again its if she killed herself with grief, maybe it was partly because of Brandon dying. And losing her baby, and her friend Elia , and her liege lord Rhaegar, and now the final straw, losing her brother. If she even suicided at all.

Not entirely meh. Its a important little revelation in the possible revealing of Lemore as Ashara.

Even less points to Ned than Brandon.

Sum total?

- a single dance, which Brandon procured for him and several other men also had

- post-Jon rumours which clearly follow Ned taking Jon from Starfall as his bastard while Ashara kills herself. What the heck sort of rumours would anyone expect from such an event?

- Ned shutting down Catelyn's enquiry about Ashara, because it is an enquiry into Jon's birth, nothing to do with Ashra except peripherially. "I will hear where you heard that name" only follows Ned's emphasis on Jon and is all about shutting down the rumour and protecting Jon's secret, not about protecting Ashara.

And Asharas story is just as tragic, in a different way if it was Brandon.

Loves one brother, but he's an ass and uses and dumps her, appeals to the next brother to help her (maybe) and he'd (maybe) like to but cannot, much. Then she loses the baby, her lover is brutally murdered, her leige family destroyed and to top it all off the nice brother kills her brother but acts totally honourably about the whole situation.

Anyway, my vote for Brandon, though other possibilities still exist.

You forget that Edric Dayne revealed to Arya in aSoS that the Dayne family believed that Ashara was so much in love with Ned that she killed herself when he chose to return to Catelyn instead of staying with her in Starfall. I think it's reasonable to infer from this passage and others (the young wolf, Ned, wanting to dance with Ashara; Cersei's belief that Ned fathered Ashara's stillborn child; Ned's reaction to Ashara's name) that they had feelings for each other.

Does GRRM come out and tell us that Ned and Ashara loved each other? Clearly, he doesn't. What I have done is draw what I believe to be a reasonable inference based information that GRRM has scattered throughout the text.

[Bushido]

I tend to think it is Brandon. (he disappeared sometime before his wedding,and it would be in timeline for a birth to happen)

[Winterfell is Burning]

I tend to think it is Brandon. (he disappeared sometime before his wedding,and it would be in timeline for a birth to happen)

He didn't disappear.

[Ser Leftwich]

He didn't disappear.

There is a gap of time from when he leaves Riverrun after the duel with Petyr and then is on his way to Riverrun for the wedding to Cat when his whereabouts are unknown.

[ost]

I'm going to be old-fashioned (pre ADWD) and say it was Ned. I just think Ned loved Brandon (and Lyanna) a lot, he went to war for them, had their likenesses done for their tombs even though they weren't lords and you just get a general feeling in AGoT that this is known.

I don't think he would love Brandon so much if he had fucked Ashara the woman we know he loved and I don't think Brandon would do that on Ned anyway, it's not very brotherly or Stark-ly, even womanizers don't do that.

Plus you'd think there would be some bitterness about Brandon in Ned's POVs if Brandon had have done that.

Also can someone prove this crackpot theory wrong for me because it's bugging me?

What if Rhaegar was the father, he was thinking the dragon has three heads, Rhaenys doesn't count and he must have expected he might die in the rebellion. So he picked a third woman. It seems like he loved the prophecy more than any woman, I wouldn't put it past him

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I put my bets on Brandon Stark as well, and i do believe that her baby is alive but i dont think its Darkstar. I think he is too old for it...cause the baby would as old as Dany, right? And that is a bit older than Jon and Robb.

How old is Darkstar anyway? I doubt that the most dangerous man in Dorne is 17 year old boy....

I put my bets on Brandon Stark as well, and i do believe that her baby is alive but i dont think its Darkstar. I think he is too old for it...cause the baby would as old as Dany, right? And that is a bit older than Jon and Robb.

How old is Darkstar anyway? I doubt that the most dangerous man in Dorne is 17 year old boy....

It's been a while since I've read AFFC, but I think Darkstar says something like Arthur Dayne was only good cause of his blade, so if he's old enough to judge Arthur's swordplay then he's around jaime's age.

Back on topic, i think it's brandon.

[Gronzag]

I hate to admit this but... it was me! I am the father of Ashara's child!

[Alia of the knife]

I just have to go with Brandon, because more and more, I'm thinking the wild wolfe fathered Darkstar on Ashara.

I use to think Darkstar was too old, but that's only based on his associating with Arianne, which may mean nothing, so we don't really know his age.

Ned Dayne is twelve and the Lord of Starfall, so he appears to be too young and is legitimate, but in Dorne, while not a Great Bastard, DS would still be the offspring of two Noble Houses, and could perhaps inherit the Cadet branch of House Dayne.

Also, Robb is young, a King, and if not for Frey treachery, was defeating Tywin, THE most dangerous man in the Seven Kingdoms.

And trying to kill Myrcella is rash enough of an act to not put him around Jaimies age,( but then, Jaimie just recently threw an eight year old boy out of a window), but I don't think Jaimie would do anything rash on the battlefield.

Being bastard born in Dorne is not the stigma it is everywhere else, but it may be stigma enough to not be Sword of the Morning and cause for resentment, as well as not being able to claim Winterfell and be the rightful Warden of the North.

Add a k to Dark Star........

[Rose of Winterfell]

Had a mad idea the other day that Aerys raped Ashara, who then turned to Brandon, who couldn't do anything because he was promised to Cat, so he had the wild idea to lie to his family (including Ned) telling them the child was his, and persuading Ned to marry Ashara in his place to protect her honour and avoid conflict with House Dayne!!

The only reason Brandon didn't attack Aerys after finding out is because he did care about Ashara and doing so would expose his genius plan, but when he heard targaryen number 2 (Rhaegar) 'raped' innocent maiden number 2 (Lyanna) this is why he totally flipped out and got himself killed.

Also, if Darkstar is the child, the blond streak comes from Aerys! Secret targ number 100000 is born :)

I should note that I am only half joking about this.

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

Brandon.

If Ned would have dishonored Ashara, he would have married with her the next day, like Robb did.

Ned would have put his honour aside, in order to save the honour of a noble woman.

[thequietwolf]

Well, on the one hand I'd find it believable if Ned was the father. Robert himself says he was serious even when he was young "yet there was that one time...". (I've loaned my copy of GOT to my sister, otherwise I'd double check the details). I certainly don't think it's implausible to think Ned slept with Ashara but due to Brandon's death he married Cat instead of her. Perhaps he never learnt of the child? I'd also like Ned to have been the father of Ashara's child as I have a soft spot for them as a couple. Call me biased if you will!

Yet Brandon seems the more likely candidate...

[Crown]

Ned, and the child is Jon.

[Rose of Winterfell]

Well, on the one hand I'd find it believable if Ned was the father. Robert himself says he was serious even when he was young "yet there was that one time...". (I've loaned my copy of GOT to my sister, otherwise I'd double check the details). I certainly don't think it's implausible to think Ned slept with Ashara but due to Brandon's death he married Cat instead of her. Perhaps he never learnt of the child? I'd also like Ned to have been the father of Ashara's child as I have a soft spot for them as a couple. Call me biased if you will!

Yet Brandon seems the more likely candidate...

One of the main reasons I don't think Ned is the father is that Robert doesn't think so, he never even seems to contemplate the possibility. Surely Ned's best friend would have had some knowledge of whatever Stark/Dayne events transpired at harrenhal?