Oberyn poisoned Tywin

[Horza]

But in Oberyn's case, we know the motive and the opportunity, while we can only speculate about such in Varys' case. After all, if you send Tyrion up that ladder why poison Tywin beforehand?

Because if you haven't welded him to the privy he's a good physical chance over Tyrion. Varys' motives are obscure, but we've seen ample demonstrations of his means, while nothing specifically suggests Oberyn has access to Widow's Blood.

I think the theory that Varys somehow planned all of this is too much of aRoulette Gambit - too much could have gone wrong for him to plan this to go down that path. Doesn't mean he didn't encourage Tyrion once he'd taken his decision, of course.

So he'd go to all the trouble of rescuing Tyrion just to send him, unarmed, into a situation where he's a good chance of getting captured or killed?

Also, what kind of co-incidence is that Shae's zonked out, Tywin's welded to the loo and there's a crossbow there in easy reach? If Varys hadn't planned it wouldn't it be lazy writing on Martin's part to have Tyrion waltz in to a perfect situation, where everything he needs to kill his father is handed to him on a plate?

[Lady Storm]

Because if you haven't welded him to the privy he's a good physical chance over Tyrion. Varys' motives are obscure, but we've seen ample demonstrations of his means, while nothing specifically suggests Oberyn has access to Widow's Blood.

Poison is a Dornishman's weapon?

So he'd go to all the trouble of rescuing Tyrion just to send him, unarmed, into a situation where he's a good chance of getting captured or killed?

Also, what kind of co-incidence is that Shae's zonked out, Tywin's welded to the loo and there's a crossbow there in easy reach? If Varys hadn't planned it wouldn't it be lazy writing on Martin's part to have Tyrion waltz in to a perfect situation, where everything he needs to kill his father is handed to him on a plate?

But what is the alternative?

Varys placing a loaded crossbow in Tywins room *on the wall* and Tywin either not noticing it or noticing it and going: "Meh. Woteva."?

And Varys didn't exactly take Tyrion to the tower (although it can be argued that he secretly was, but I'm not entirely convinced.

[Lady Storm]

double

[Horza]

Poison is a Dornishman's weapon?

This is crude stereotyping of a noble people who have gifted the world such fine wines, beautiful women, and ripe blood oranges. For shame, madam, for shame.

Varys placing a loaded crossbow in Tywins room *on the wall* and Tywin either not noticing it or noticing it and going: "Meh. Woteva."?

And Varys didn't exactly take Tyrion to the tower (although it can be argued that he secretly was, but I'm not entirely convinced.

The crossbow wasn't loaded, but ammo was again in easy reach. This is the one weapon in the room (dagger, poleaxe, unreachable mace) Tyrion has a chance with and it's right within reach. Varys takes him right under the tower, and then gives him detailed instructions on getting into his father's chambers with only token attempts to dissuade.

[Lady Storm]

This is crude stereotyping of a noble people who have gifted the world such fine wines, beautiful women, and ripe blood oranges. For shame, madam, for shame.

Well, I would prefer him to try and seduce Tywin with vine and oranges, that also seems to be very Dornish, but I guess that will never happen now :)

The crossbow wasn't loaded, but ammo was again in easy reach. This is the one weapon in the room (dagger, poleaxe, unreachable mace) Tyrion has a chance with and it's right within reach. Varys takes him right under the tower, and then gives him detailed instructions on getting into his father's chambers with only token attempts to dissuade.

I get that Varys might actually be plotting to get Tyrion to his father's chambers, but in that case, it seems to me more likely that he's getting him there so that Tywin will hurt Tyrion, not the other way around. The sole complexity of the circumstances needed in order for Tyrion to win seem to be something Varys couldn't rely upon: Shae and Tywin separated, Tywin without guards or weapons, the crossbow so conveniently placed, Tyrion learning about Tysha and being angry enough to "pull the plug"...

I don't know, I see how it's possible, but it does sound a bit farfetched

[Horza]

I get that Varys might actually be plotting to get Tyrion to his father's chambers, but in that case, it seems to me more likely that he's getting him there so that Tywin will hurt Tyrion, not the other way around. The sole complexity of the circumstances needed in order for Tyrion to win seem to be something Varys couldn't rely upon: Shae and Tywin separated, Tywin without guards or weapons, the crossbow so conveniently placed, Tyrion learning about Tysha and being angry enough to "pull the plug"...

I don't know, I see how it's possible, but it does sound a bit farfetched

If Varys wants Tyrion killed why blow his own cover by freeing him from the Black Cells? Once Tyrion's out of there all the answers point right back to Varys. This also makes the whole boat to Pentos thing inexplicable as well...

That's the thing about the Widow's Blood: it solves all the complexity by putting Tywin in the one place where he won't be guarded. It's the only thing that makes the plan work.

I used to be skeptical about this theory too, but on reflection I think it's the most convincing explanation for the sequence of events in that chapter. It's not perfect, but other explanations have problems explaining why Varys is so ready to risk giving away the prisoner he's just sprung.

[Serie]

count me in for the believers... it seems so obvious but still I could never have guessed! this forum never lets me down :)

[Lady Storm]

If Varys wants Tyrion killed why blow his own cover by freeing him from the Black Cells? Once Tyrion's out of there all the answers point right back to Varys. This also makes the whole boat to Pentos thing inexplicable as well...

That's the thing about the Widow's Blood: it solves all the complexity by putting Tywin in the one place where he won't be guarded. It's the only thing that makes the plan work.

I used to be skeptical about this theory too, but on reflection I think it's the most convincing explanation for the sequence of events in that chapter. It's not perfect, but other explanations have problems explaining why Varys is so ready to risk giving away the prisoner he's just sprung.

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood :bang:

Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place. :bang:

[Horza]

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood :bang:

Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place. :bang:

In my limited experience that hasn't been the case.

[Currawong]

I think that many readers are so used to looking deep into GRRM's books to find deeper meanings, clever allusions and carefully hidden easter eggs that they often miss the blindingly obvious.

In life, there IS such a thing as just 'chance' or coincidence, and sometimes things 'just happen' for no possible reason. See the 1998 movie Sliding Doors for a classic example.

stand back and LOOK at the incident in its entirety, and then answer a few very basic questions before leaping onto the conspiracy bandwagon.

Q1: What was the trigger for Tyrion going to Tywin's chambers that night, instead of just escaping as Jaime and Varys had planned?

A1: Jaime telling Tyrion the truth about the Tysha incident.

Q2: So HOW could Varys have planned or even anticipated the vaguest possibility that Jaime and Tyrion would have that particular conversation at that time?

A2: ???? I am still waiting for someone to explain this!

Up to that point, there was nothing at all to indicate that Tyrion would want to kill his father, or indeed even want to see him on his way out. Tyrion didn't know that Tywin was planning to send him to the Wall, if he could get the Tyrells' consent, rather than having him executed - he thought Tywin was going along with the whole outcome of the trial and trial by battle. So why on earth would he want to go anywhere near his father and risk recapture?

Far from being some weird and wonderful conspiracy, I would argue that the 'chance' death of Tywin is completely logical and very clever writing in the context of the books. Here we have the stern and powerful Tywin, former Hand of the King, master planner and schemer, used to bullying his two sons and getting his own way in nearly everyting, tryng to arrange things as he has always done - and he is killed on the privy because of a series of complete coincidences that no-one would ever have believed in.

But life's like that! And - appropriately in this case - sometimes we discover that Shit Just Happens! :D

[kg1982]

Course Varys wants Tywin dead. Tywin is a dangerous foe to Aegon and Cersei is so good at screwing things up. The more interesting speculation is why Tyrion is still alive.

[mediterraneo]

I get that Varys might actually be plotting to get Tyrion to his father's chambers, but in that case, it seems to me more likely that he's getting him there so that Tywin will hurt Tyrion, not the other way around. T

That's why he didn't only psicologically push Tyrion to the room, he moved the furnitures to let Tyrion get the weapon, he left a drugged Shae inside the room and gave Tywinn poison: he had to be in the toilet with quite literally his pants down for two different moments. The first, Varys and Shae's entrance from the secret passages, with subsequent drugging of Shae. Second, living the father in the son's power when Tyrion entered the room.

But the most important thing to note about the Oberyn's responsability for the venom is this one:

Oberyn died in the duel.

In the duel, he was so interested in getting a confession from the Mountain that he lost his life in it. He needed a public confession to force his brother to act, and it wasn't even enough. He already knew who did and who ordered what in his sister's death. If he wanted to act without the public confession, he could have done it without getting killed and without getting involved.

He did not act before the duel, because there are limits to what he could do, with the weight of Dorne on himself. After the duel and the confession, he was dead.

So I believe that he is innocent of conspiring to kill Tywinn Lannister.

What this thread opened my mind about, is the chance that he was not at all innocent in the conspiration to kill Joffrey.

Nobody liked the kid, and Oberyn could have even brought the venom used to kill the boy.

A venom that, differently from the venom used to incapacitate or even kill Tywinn (if the bolt did not do it quicker) we did not see in Pycelle's room before the judgement.

What do you think?

[Lady Storm]

In my limited experience that hasn't been the case.

How?

You mean he decided to go and use the restroom although he didn't need one?

And all that with a naked and (more or less) willing girl in his bed?

It sounds to me like a type of poison that will kill you after days of painful indigestion, not a laxative :dunno:

[mcb]

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood :bang:

Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place. :bang:

What? No. It mean Tywin wouldn't succeed in the privy, doesn't mean he wouldn't try. And he must have had been there for some time with no results: he leaves Shae, Tyrion gets out of the fireplace and doesn't bump into his father, has a chat with his former girlfriend, strangles her, looks for a weapon, finds it, loads it, and only then in the privy he meets with Tywin, who hasn't been able to finish the business so far, despite dire need.

Something stinks here, forgive the incredibly lame pun.

[Serie]

How?

You mean he decided to go and use the restroom although he didn't need one?

And all that with a naked and (more or less) willing girl in his bed?

It sounds to me like a type of poison that will kill you after days of painful indigestion, not a laxative :dunno:

well, it doesn't say that once you've been poisoned you don't feel the need to go to the restroom, just there's no result. So Tywin might have felt the need but was unable to.... well, you know what I mean. Then when Tyrion shot him down there everything were loose so...

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood :bang:

Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place. :bang:

I think you're interpreting that the wrong way. His body is still producing waste(obviously because his bowels loosen after he gets shot) but the poison prevents him from relieving himself. Basically, he would become more and more constipated until he died.

PS: what a shitty way to die(haha). Tyrion kinda did him a favor.

[Horza]

How?

You mean he decided to go and use the restroom although he didn't need one?

And all that with a naked and (more or less) willing girl in his bed?

It sounds to me like a type of poison that will kill you after days of painful indigestion, not a laxative :dunno:

Without wanting to get into the gory details of constipation, people tend to notice when their bowels aren't moving as they should and they tend to make that discovery on the privy.

[Pellaeon]

Course Varys wants Tywin dead. Tywin is a dangerous foe to Aegon and Cersei is so good at screwing things up. The more interesting speculation is why Tyrion is still alive.

Because he is usefull and owns Varys a debt now. Varys isn't just intrested in winning the game, he wants a stable westeros afterwarts, so he need a Lord in Casterly Rock who is suited for this task

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Poison isn't really the best explanation for the decay though. By the time of the funeral, Tywin had been dead for a week, and they don't exactly have air conditioning in Westeros. I would think natural decay would explain as well as poison.

Still...wow.

ETA. Shouldn't the poison have killed him earler though?

[Lady Storm]

Good god, this is definitely not the direction I imagined this conversation taking :stunned:

Fine, I see how it's possible and I actually like the idea.

But it still seems as kind of a big stretch :huh: