Who is Mance Rayder?

[Free Northman]

On a reread of Dance, I was struck by the idea that maybe Mellisandre's ruby that Mance wears gives him superhuman speed and strength perhaps?

I just found it unlikely that Jon - who was trained by the master of arms of the greatest house of the North - and who is able to totally hammer Iron Emmet (the best swordsman in the Watch by a long distance), is so easily defeated by this ageing wildling.

If Mance is indeed unenhanced by the magical ruby, then it means that Jon is not nearly the swordsman that someone lik Loras Tyrell is, who is of a similar age to him. And that would be a pity in the bigger scheme of things.

So much is made of all the time Jon spends training with swords, and of his skill in this area, that it is a bit of an anticlimax to see him cut down to size so effortlessly by Mance Rayder, who has grey streaked hair and is probably well into his forties.

[RhaenysBee]

So much is made of all the time Jon spends training with swords, and of his skill in this area, that it is a bit of an anticlimax to see him cut down to size so effortlessly by Mance Rayder, who has grey streaked hair and is probably well into his forties.

Interesting point. But I don't know... Experience counts a lot. Maybe you are quicker and more fit at 16, but another 25 years do wonder to your skills, instincts (appearance and personality... okay, drop my taste for men). Mance was said to be the best ranger of the Night's Watch and there's Ser Barristan who is over 60 and would still cut Jon Snow into cupcakes. Also, wildlings follow strength, just like Dothraki (hey, I'll return here and drop an idea concerning the dragons) and they chose Mance, so he's not exactly your aging dad with a beer belly watching football all day and starting to suck at baseball. Mance would not be king beyond the wall if he wasn't able to toss summer green muffins like Jon Snow onto the ground with two swings of his sword. That's why elder people train younger ones and not the other way around. Syrio Forel was in his 40s too (or older?) and bloody good with the sword.

So back to following strength... Jon lived with wildlings and Daenerys with Dothraki, both learned that respect doesn't come from birthright. Could that mean something? Surely...

[Free Northman]

Interesting point. But I don't know... Experience counts a lot. Maybe you are quicker and more fit at 16, but another 25 years do wonder to your skills, instincts (appearance and personality... okay, drop my taste for men). Mance was said to be the best ranger of the Night's Watch and there's Ser Barristan who is over 60 and would still cut Jon Snow into cupcakes. Also, wildlings follow strength, just like Dothraki (hey, I'll return here and drop an idea concerning the dragons) and they chose Mance, so he's not exactly your aging dad with a beer belly watching football all day and starting to suck at baseball. Mance would not be king beyond the wall if he wasn't able to toss summer green muffins like Jon Snow onto the ground with two swings of his sword. That's why elder people train younger ones and not the other way around. Syrio Forel was in his 40s too (or older?) and bloody good with the sword.

So back to following strength... Jon lived with wildlings and Daenerys with Dothraki, both learned that respect doesn't come from birthright. Could that mean something? Surely...

According to Jon, Mance was both stronger and faster than him. Now, Jon isn't a big man by any means, so he will no doubt meet more men that are stronger than him than not. But you would think that if he stands any chance to be a top notch swordsman it is his speed that should set him apart.

Much like Loras Tyrell.

Alas, it seems like Jon is merely above average, and it seems unlikely that his potential comes anywhere near that of the top swordsmen in the series. If Mance is who he says he is, and was unaided by magic in that scene.

[RhaenysBee]

According to Jon, Mance was both stronger and faster than him. Now, Jon isn't a big man by any means, so he will no doubt meet more men that are stronger than him than not. But you would think that if he stands any chance to be a top notch swordsman it is his speed that should set him apart.

Much like Loras Tyrell.

Alas, it seems like Jon is merely above average, and it seems unlikely that his potential comes anywhere near that of the top swordsmen in the series. If Mance is who he says he is, and was unaided by magic in that scene.

Well no. What made you think Jon was top swordsman in the first place? :) I think leading an inspiring people is more for him. Like, Lord Tywin's skills with sword are misty too. Maybe he's that good, he just has the leader aura. Like Jon.

Anyway who could Mance BE? (if we get over the sad fact that Rhaegar DID die on the Trident)

[Free Northman]

Well no. What made you think Jon was top swordsman in the first place? :) I think leading an inspiring people is more for him. Like, Lord Tywin's skills with sword are misty too. Maybe he's that good, he just has the leader aura. Like Jon.

Anyway who could Mance BE? (if we get over the sad fact that Rhaegar DID die on the Trident)

Mance is just Mance. But he is amazingly gifted in many areas, it appears.

As for Jon. If he wasn't meant to be a good swordsman, why has Martin spent more pages depicting Jon training at swords than virtually any other character in the series?

[RhaenysBee]

Yeah, Mance is Mance and he was born to be wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiild (and skilled and hot).

As for Jon, in the first book Jon wasn't actually doing anything but training. I think that was all just showing you how hard working he was in contrast to Joffrey who was not working at anything, everything was there for him. Also (maybe I'm mixing the show into this, correct me if I do) it was mostly through the trainings that Jon gradually understood he was not some sort of chosen one, because Ser Rodrick left him with some basic fighting skills. He started adjusting to life at the Wall, started making friends and started having conflicts (with Alliser Thorne). He was training to become a ranger, only that whole thing was scattered when Mormont chose him to be his steward. I think Martin showed all those fighting scenes because they were forming Jon's personality and values. It was through the trainings that he became the Jon Snow of CoK and SoS.

[StarkSupporter]

Mance is just Mance. Rhaegar is dead, a lot of people saw him catch a warhammer in the chest, and everyone in the Seven Kingdoms knows that Robert buried his hammer in Rhaegar's chest. Mance was raised to be a brother of the NW, so from as young as he could, he was trained to be a warrior. As far as him understanding the Old Tongue, we see through Craster, that not all Wildlings and NW are hostile to each other, so there is a chance that Mance learned it during his time as a ranger (was he first ranger, I don't remember?).

[Free Northman]

What would be nice is a Mance point of view where he reflects on the fight with Jon and thinks something to the effect of - that was the most naturally gifted swordsman he had ever fought and it took a massive effort to hold his own against him, or something to that effect.

The way Jon was talking about the fight though, Mance was swinging his greatsword faster than Jon could swing a normal longsword, and instead of tiring, he was just breezing through the fight.

Very disappointing.

[Lord Leyton]

On a reread of Dance, I was struck by the idea that maybe Mellisandre's ruby that Mance wears gives him superhuman speed and strength perhaps?

I just found it unlikely that Jon - who was trained by the master of arms of the greatest house of the North - and who is able to totally hammer Iron Emmet (the best swordsman in the Watch by a long distance), is so easily defeated by this ageing wildling.

If Mance is indeed unenhanced by the magical ruby, then it means that Jon is not nearly the swordsman that someone lik Loras Tyrell is, who is of a similar age to him. And that would be a pity in the bigger scheme of things.

So much is made of all the time Jon spends training with swords, and of his skill in this area, that it is a bit of an anticlimax to see him cut down to size so effortlessly by Mance Rayder, who has grey streaked hair and is probably well into his forties.

Mance has probably also been trained all through his childhood seeing how he was at the wall, Jon was also about to be crushed by Quorin half-hand when his Wolf and the fact that Quorin let him win saved him.

[lojzelote]

On a reread of Dance, I was struck by the idea that maybe Mellisandre's ruby that Mance wears gives him superhuman speed and strength perhaps?

I just found it unlikely that Jon - who was trained by the master of arms of the greatest house of the North - and who is able to totally hammer Iron Emmet (the best swordsman in the Watch by a long distance), is so easily defeated by this ageing wildling.

If Mance is indeed unenhanced by the magical ruby, then it means that Jon is not nearly the swordsman that someone lik Loras Tyrell is, who is of a similar age to him. And that would be a pity in the bigger scheme of things.

So much is made of all the time Jon spends training with swords, and of his skill in this area, that it is a bit of an anticlimax to see him cut down to size so effortlessly by Mance Rayder, who has grey streaked hair and is probably well into his forties.

If I remember correctly, Jon is a "decent" swordsman, rather than a "great" one. Also, didn't Mance beat up all the other wildling leaders to get at the top?

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Well if you take "Dayne" out of "Mance Rayder", you are left with:

"Mace Rr"

any anagram wizards out there?

[Ciazio]

Mance is just Mance, and I like him that way.

Maybe GRRM was so fond of Rhaegar's persona that he made some trait of his personality "survive" and "reincarnate" in Mance.

But, alas, Rhaegar's dead.

OT: do we know what King Bob did with Rhaegar's body?

[Sandy Clegg]

OK, here's some circumstantial evidence that supports Mance = Rhaegar.

1)" Rhaegar" dies at the Battle of Ruby Ford. For Rhaegar to be alive, someone else needs to have died at the Ford. Now, to create a glamor, or illusion, of someone else, we know from Melisandre that a ruby of some magic power is required. Since the battle took place well before magic started returning to the world, perhaps more than one ruby was necessary.

Rhaegar's armour was studded with rubies.

2) The effect of a glamour is much stronger when wearing the clothes of whoever is being imitated.

Rhaegar's armour was fairly distinct and well-known to everyone.

3) Mance enters Winterfell to rescue "Arya" under the name of Abel (anagram of Bael)

When Dany asks what Rhaegar was like, Ser Barristan's reply is thus:

"Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded".

A cheeky GRRM clue perhaps?

Now, I know GRRM has said that Rhaegar was cremated, but I think he is allowed to stretch the truth a little when protecting huge book secrets. As to who actually died at the Ruby Ford ... I'm all theoried out right now. Someone else want to carry on?

[kephv]

Mance Rayder has brown hair and brown eyes.

[RhaenysBee]

The only purpose of the similarity is to show us what a wonderful king Rhaegar would have made. Even Mance's family was the same way as Rhaegar was with Lyanna and Jon Snow, considering there was such thing as Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon Snow. Dalla died giving birth to the baby while Mance was off to battle and the baby was taken care of by family (Val).

Also... Rhaegar is a Targaryen. He would have never agreed to giving the Throne to Robert Baratheon while he becomes an exile. Even if he agreed to that, he'd have returned to King's Landing to kill Pycell, Tywin, the Mountain, Amory Lorch and Robert himself after word reached him of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.

[Sandy Clegg]

double post

[Sandy Clegg]

Mance Rayder has brown hair and brown eyes.

I think the very fact that we even get a description of the colour of his eyes is somewhat fishy, as it throws us of the scent immediately. GRRM doesn't have to play fair here, really. Characters exist who have been known to change faces, and as Rhaegar is known to have been a voracious reader, I think it's safe to say that if such a way existed, he would have read about it and found a way to achieve it.

The one thing we know for sure is that he was very determined ... we just don't know what that ultimate goal is.

[kephv]

We also know that his chest was smashed in with hammer, and that thousands of people witnessed it. GRRM has also confirmed he was cremated.

[RhaenysBee]

I think the very fact that we even get a description of the colour of his eyes is somewhat fishy, as it throws us of the scent immediately. GRRM doesn't have to play fair here, really. Characters exist who have been known to change faces, and as Rhaegar is known to have been a voracious reader, I think it's safe to say that if such a way existed, he would have read about it and found a way to achieve it.

The one thing we know for sure is that he was very determined ... we just don't know what that ultimate goal is.

I read everything about Harry Potter and I never got to grow any magical powers.

I read everything about ASOIAF and I never got to achieve sleeping with any of the characters.

I read everything about LOTR and no matter how many tunnels I enter I still can't speak with floating green ghosts.

Samwell Tarly read a lot too, and he's still unable to work a bow. So that's all about reading and learning things from books.

[Stormcloak]

If Rhaegar somehow faked his death on the trident I think he'd have tried to flee with Lyanna and the 3 Kingsguard before Ned reached the Tower of Joy, been there with them or at least with his mother and Viserys at Dragonstone and then later across the narrow sea with Daenerys and Viserys. Presuming he'd even accept the war was over with Dorne and the Reach still loyal.

If Rhaegar had been Mance then who did Robert kill on the trident, an equally talented lookalike? If Ned knew why wasn't he worried when Rhaegar/Mance broke his oath, fled beyond the wall and then became a king with the strength to attack the Seven Kingdoms? Why would he break his oath and head north, wouldn't he head south for revenge on Gregor, Lorch, Jaime, Tywin and Robert for what happened to his family? He had a chance to attack Robert or Jaime at the feast at Winterfell.

Also if R+L=J was true then presumably Rhaegar/Mance would reveal himself to Jon Snow as soon as they met or even slip over the wall and try to meet him earlier, again maybe at the feast at Winterfell. And wouldn't Rhaegar have told Maester Aemon Jon Snow was actually his son during whatever time he spent at the wall?

Besides if Mance was raised anywhere other than the wall Qhorin Halfhand, Maester Aemon, Jeor Mormont and anyone else in the Night's Watch old enough wouldn't remember him growing up on the wall, taking the black and then deserting. Or does this theory revolve around all of them being in on a cover up as well as Rhaegar magically changing appearance?

I just think he is too good for a common wildling because....... He can speak the old tongue fluently, he is an amazing bard, he is influentual and he is a fantastic swordman.

Why can't a common Wildling grow up to be exceptional? He was raised at the wall so he might've been taught by Maester Aemon and no doubt by a master of arms, maybe the same master of arms who trained Qhorin Halfhand another fantastic swordsman.

It seems odd that the amazing knight Ser Rhaegar fell to Robert who was basically just strong

Where did you get the impression Robert was just strong? In his prime Robert was one of the best warriors in the realm, he won the throne with his war hammer.

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna the Starks search for her but in the end they find she has fallen in love and with child (Jon is probably Lyanna's and Rhaegar)................................. as Lyanna was dying i think she gave birth to a still born.

Hold on, do you think Lyanna gave birth to a stillborn or Jon?

Rhaegar's an interesting character and no doubt we're going to learn more about him but it weakens the backstory and the various claims to the throne in the current story to have him still alive. Mance is already a great character in his own right.