[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

[legba11]

He did break out of his cell to try and make a run for it. It is important for Jaimie to have his hands bound because Brienne is in charge. The moment Jaimie can free himself from bondage he would no longer see it that way. Cat freed Jaimie in hopes that her daughters would be freed in exchange. Brienne I don't think knows that Jaimie desires KL so bad. He could just as easily join up with the closest group of Lannister fighters and head right back to Riverrun(or wherever the show has them) to pay them back. We know better but I don't see any reason why she would. Jaimie's point of view is he believes in his sword hand to carry him through life basically. Without all of this you would then just leave out Brienne and have Cat let Jaimie out of his cell and say I am exchanging you for my daughters go straight to KL and return them. Sounds like a really dumb idea doesn't it. I think most think it sounds like a dumb idea anyway. Remember she is relying on Tyrion's word not the Kingslayer.

The rejoining the battle immediately is the best argument I've heard on this. I don't think it outweighs the danger issue (certainly in hindsight, but that is not relevant), but at least it puts a portion of sanity into something I've always found as a weakness in the book. (I find it a forced plot device to begin Jaime's path to redemption, I accept it, as it is the best storyline of the entire series IMO)

Brienne's task is not only to convey Jaime, but to convey Catelyn's request and make it clear that Jaime was only released voluntarily by Catelyn in the hope that the Lannisters would respond honorably and with mercy. That would be public knowledge, and might have some effect on the Lannister decision. At least, in the minds of Catelyn and Brienne. If Jaime is free and kills Brienne, then he can walk into KL and make up any story he wants. It then looks less like a matter of mercy and honor for Catelyn than Jaime escaping from those disloyal Stark bastards.

At least, that's my take on it.

Catelyn is taking a leap of faith on Tyrion's honor. Whether Jaime walks into KL with Brienne (and in chains) or on his own power, all that matters is whether Tyrion will honor the deal. (This all turns out moot, but that doesn't matter here). I've always assumed she informed Tyrion of this acceptance of his trade offer, to not do so would be insanity considering the dangerous terrain Jaime is about to cross. She would want Lannister patrols lout looking for him as they approach KL. A prisoner exchange can't work without both parties cooperating.

[Ciglon]

I guess they want non-book readers to assume that the ironmen burnt winterfell down (like many people assume in ASOS), but of course, this was different seeing as how in the books the ironmen stood up to the very end so the thought that they would burn winterfell down before they died makes a bit of sense but in the series now, non-book readers will naturally assume they did it but then think "well why would they if they were seeking mercy from (presumably) loyal northmen"?

[Warrick]

I actually like this version better with Robb. In the book, he forsakes a vow because he didn't want to dishonor a lady. Well, that's kind of a contradiction. In the show, he's blinded by love. Which happens in real life to us all.

Also, Sansa doesn't know who to trust. I take most of her responses as being a defense mechanism. She only seems to be herself with Shae.

I agree with this. It's Robb's first beautiful woman he's probably ever looked at, let alone touched and had sex with. People on this forum are forgetting how stupid being in love for the first time makes you. It makes everything else seem insignificant, even if you're leading men into war. There's nothing more blinding than being in love for the first time.

[nara]

I agree with this. It's Robb's first beautiful woman he's probably ever looked at, let alone touched and had sex with. People on this forum are forgetting how stupid being in love for the first time makes you. It makes everything else seem insignificant, even if you're leading men into war. There's nothing more blinding than being in love for the first time.

Given that show-Robb is much older than book-Robb, I somehow doubt that this is first relationship. First true love, maybe, but probably not sex. The real issue to me is the lost parallel to Ned's honor.

[Ciglon]

Given that show-Robb is much older than book-Robb, I somehow doubt that this is first relationship. First true love, maybe, but probably not sex. The real issue to me is the lost parallel to Ned's honor.

I do think personally that this is his first relationship period tbh. Very much like Jon, I don't think he would have felt comfortable having sex with a whore before.

Although I think that Dan and Dave suspected that this version of events would be easier for non-book readers to understand and relate to, because they probably want to make him a tragic romantic at the RW and love translates better to the audience than honour.

[So1ar]

Did anyone else think Ramsay and his men were playing soccer outside the gates of Winterfell? That would explain the vuvuzela that was driving Theon nuts.

[Ser Steven]

I agree with the biggest disappointment this episode being Robb marrying under the seven to a Volantene girl. Doesn't make much sense at all.

Why is this disappointing? Ned married Cat under the Seven.

"And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together at the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of House Tully" Cat 1 GoT

"He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone." Cat 2 GoT

[Thunderfist]

Why is this disappointing? Ned married Cat under the Seven.

"And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together at the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of House Tully" Cat 1 GoT

"He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone." Cat 2 GoT

As someone posted in another thread. Cat was a worshipper of the seven, so it makes sense that they married in a sept. Robb worships the old gods, Talisa is from Volantis where they worship R´hllor, so where do the seven fit into that picture? As was also mentioned in another thread, it´s the equivalent of a devout christian marrying a devout muslim in a buddhist wedding-ceremony

[BaleriOne]

But why does it SEE Sam and not care? That seemed wrong.

It was to illustrate Sam's insignificance in the event taking place, Winter Coming -the return of The Whitewalkers.

Like a grain of sand facing a tidal wave - it's destiny insignificant.

[Grimwolfe]

they could have pulled off the burning so well. Imagine how incredible a cliffhanger it would have been if theon treated with ramsay, only to have ramsay knock him to the floor before screaming "burn it all!" the audience would have been left thinking 'wtf did roose's son just do' 'who the fuck is this crazy guy'

however, that being said i can kind of understand why they didnt, as it would not only take away from the ending scene with the three horn blasts and the others, but also what with the amount of characters introduced they may have been scared to suddenly introduce a new one at the end of the season rather than give them a stronger introduction at the beginning of the next. Not to mention the added budget cost for another character when it would be better to put more of it towards the vfx (blackwater, fist of the first men, dragons)

[pleonasm]

As a standalone episode I thought this was excellent. There are problems of course but that's the same with everything. The big postives for me were finally something satisfying happening in Dany's storyline and the ending at the Fist of the First Men which was just brilliant.

Dany's storyline has been poor this season, suffering from the writer's desire to have Emilia Clarke on screen more than she would be if they followed the book. But the House of the Undying worked very well for me. I know fans are disappointed with the lack of "visions" but how many can you put on screen without ruining future seasons? What they did worked well because it alluded to the past and future, of what could be and what might have been, showing Dany glories and tragedies. It served to emphasise the point that the future is uncertain (e.g. showing Drogo with Rhaego which obviously never came to pass). This is a good counterpoint to Melisandre's certainty about her visions which leaves viewers with the question: is the future already written as Mel believes or is it uncertain as suggested by Dany's visions? If I have to nitpick here, I'd say that since they wrote Dany a vision at the Wall then they might as well have had a close up of a Blue Rose, seems like a simple opportunity missed that would have had purists wetting themselves.

I heard a number of people question how they could put the visions onscreen without giving away future storylines. I don't understand this rationale at all. Its all in the presentation. A few tweaks and modifications and the visions and prophecies remain chilling, hearbreaking, and most importantly help drive Dany's story in the next few seasons.

A dead soldier slumped on a chair, sword in his back, wearing a Wolf's head is vague enough. A Targaryen prince talking about the Prince who is promised and that the Dragon has three heads. Heck have Harry Lloyd (Viserys) return to deliver the promises ("Three treasons you will know...", etc...).

Unfortunately the producers decided to settle on a simpler storyline (a couple of tempatations for Dany - the Iron Throne, remaining with Drogo), rather than a more complicated nuanced series of visions (past, present, and future) which offer some insight into both her but possibly also the past and future of Westeros.

Edited June 7, 2012 by pleonasm

[violet storm]

Really disapointed with the end.

Theon's part was horrible, no Ramsay, no reek. Really bad.

And at the... Why the others didnt kill Sam?? That was stupid...

It is too early for reek. Was slightly upset about missing Ramsay, but I thought the Theon's speech was on the brighter moments in otherwise highly disappointing episode

[violet storm]

As someone posted in another thread. Cat was a worshipper of the seven, so it makes sense that they married in a sept. Robb worships the old gods, Talisa is from Volantis where they worship R´hllor, so where do the seven fit into that picture? As was also mentioned in another thread, it´s the equivalent of a devout christian marrying a devout muslim in a buddhist wedding-ceremony

I felt the wedding with Seven was sloppy, like producers were going for a good TV without high regard to the attentiveness of the audience. Besides, those who did not read the book, would not know what Volantis worships, and already forgot what Robb does...

[violet storm]

Very good post. It makes one wonder just how many more "subtle changes" we will be seeing through the course of the show and if we will end up like True Blood where by the 5th season the source material has been left in the dust and the show writers have taken over.

There is probably a little to much optimism around SoS being split into two seasons. I'm not so sure it's so we can get the complete story from the books. I would guess we are going to see a lot more "original ideas" coming in the next few seasons. Obviously Varys and Ros are going to have some contrived meaningless side plot that will only serve as a lazy way to shoe horn in more soft core sex at the whore house, what else?

It's bizarre that with the changes made to Robb's character, you have several fans posting here talking about how much they are anticipating the Red Wedding and want to cheer Roose on as they hate TV Robb. If I were the writers I might take a hard look at what the direction of the show is.

This has happened before. It's not unprecedented to see people doing an adaption try to dumb it down enough to please the general public. The result is usually the hard core source material fans eventually abandon it and then the public, being fickle, lose interest and walk soon too. You would think the core audience of these books and the long time fans would be at the forefront of the creative departments mind when adapting these works. Maybe it sounds crazy but some of us view this as not just entertaining but also very fine high level important literature, it deserves to be treated with respect and not cannibalized.

An excellent point about the book fans. Besides, it is not like we are talking about some obscure books nobody heard about... I think there are over 20 million books sold WW, while HBO subscription base is about 21MM. There bound to be about 30% overlap between book readers and show viewers. It is a substantial force that can get frustrated enough to abandon the show overtime.

The creators should look at the experience of LotR adaptations where Peter Jackson had a little over two hours to present a similarly-sized and complex material, while HBO producers have 10 hours! The first season was much closer to the book, and I believe so much stronger! It is about cutting and simplifying, and definitely not adding scenes and characters, such as Ros and Khal Drogo/baby appearance

[violet storm]

Whatever they do, I hope they don't get rid of the Dontos-storyline. We need him to give the poisonous hairnet to Sansa, it just felt fair for her to have a tiny bit part in Joffrey's death before getting out of that place. "Wear this at the wedding, it's justice for your father." We need to hear those words!

I am slightly confused about the Dontos's future. He did appear in episode 1,however, he is not necessary now to give Sansa a hairnet. Petir can do it, since he already openly proposed to take her away. I guess they will cut him

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Why is this disappointing? Ned married Cat under the Seven.

"And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together at the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of House Tully" Cat 1 GoT

"He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone." Cat 2 GoT

Well Cat worshiped the Seven so that makes sense to choose between the two. Talisa and Rob neither worship the Seven so I don't see any parallel

[violet storm]

I am disappointed in this episode. :( Rob's marriage was something strange. I thought that there would be a moment when she says that she's not from Volantis and her name is Jeyne Westerling. Still I cannot understand why such a departure from the book. And seven gods... when he was so like his father.

Second disappointment was Theon and the fall of Winterfell. Who burned it in the series? Some men from Pyke? No Reeds, no Ramsay, no flayed men.

The scene with Sam was alright though those "men" looked like zombies from some zombie film.

Scene with Dany was bad. I liked Drogo and the baby, but I've waited for more.

Brienne seemed very merciless though in the book she found it difficult to kill.

Where's Dontos?

Ah, and Stannis strangling Melisandre. It's even worse than f```ing her.

But I liked the scene with the Faceless man. (:

The first season was much much better!

Couldn't have said better myself!

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

I agree with this. It's Robb's first beautiful woman he's probably ever looked at, let alone touched and had sex with. People on this forum are forgetting how stupid being in love for the first time makes you. It makes everything else seem insignificant, even if you're leading men into war. There's nothing more blinding than being in love for the first time.

The big kicker in the novels to me was that Rob was injured and being cared for by Jeyne Westerling. I think he was in the dumps about Rickon and Bran being killed and even though he was winning every battle could not find a way to accomplish his mission. All this added up to a perfect storm so to speak for him to break his promise. I think the first time falling in love answer could apply just as easily to Jeyne. Also he is younger in the books and understandably more naive. The show just killed all of this for he found a hot nurse careing for soldiers in the battlefield and wants to get him some.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

I do think personally that this is his first relationship period tbh. Very much like Jon, I don't think he would have felt comfortable having sex with a whore before.

Although I think that Dan and Dave suspected that this version of events would be easier for non-book readers to understand and relate to, because they probably want to make him a tragic romantic at the RW and love translates better to the audience than honour.

Jon Snow wanted to have sex with Ros and probably others but refrained because he understood the consequences of bringing a bastard into the world. I don't think this reasoning would apply to Rob at all.

[Ghosteline]

ehmm, hold on, I don't get why everyones upset that The Other ignored Sam. We don't really even know what or who the Others are. They are a different life form...other than human...and can be intelligent as far as I understan. I don't think they are senseless killing machines. And we don't quite know yet what is their motive or what are they actually fighting for. That is all yet to come. So in my opinion we can't judge it since we don't know them anyway. And Sam does seem to be not threatening at all... so if I would be the Other... I also wouldn't give a shit about some whimpering creature thats hiding. I've got some more important business to take care of. :) ... right?!