[Book Spoilers] Game of Thrones, an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire? Not any more.

[Nymphetamine]

I thought it was a decent episode overall and I still will enjoy the series, but the HotU was just awful. So I guess Dany will burn King's Landing.

[Terilien]

I think railing on people who complain should be banned.

[niñostark]

the house of undying... with not a single undying

jon being a stupid brat and qhorin didn't mean shit

dany and her gang stealing gold

invisible people burning winterfell...

what else can I say... adaptations are good (just take a look at Tyrion's arc) but fan fiction sucks... and sucks hard

[FirelordSylar22]

How is this show becoming a joke? Explain that? It's far from it, there is a reason many people are calling it the best show on TV. Because the show is amazing, whether or not it sticks to the books 100% doesn't matter, what matters is that they give us a great show and that is EXACTLY what they're doing.

I can understand passion for the source material, but this is going to far.

[Terilien]

Why, because some of us don't want this board to become a 24/7 whinefest about how the show isn't like the books. You want people to respect your opinion but you don't want to respect those whose own opinions are contrary to yours. You have every right to complain about the show every day of the week and I have every right to tell you that it's annoying.

Because someone posts a scathing critique, and people storm at them and call them sourpusses and tell them to shut up. The former might be annoying, but the latter is rude. Expressing disagreement is one thing calling someone an awful shebat to silence them is another.

[Tetrarch42]

The episode was pretty good overall, the ending was really cool. Stannis' character on the other hand...? What have they done with my favourite character?

[Terilien]

The episode was pretty good overall, the ending was really cool. Stannis' character on the other hand...? What have they done with my favourite character?

Forced their (perhaps legitimate) interpretation down our throats.

[Lannes]

I can totally see why people will be upset, the HotU was fairly lackluster, and I really expected it to take up the majority of the episode...still that being said, I can't imagine ever saying I'll never watch again. I know it won't be perfect, I know they can't do everything. I have high hopes for next season, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Though... whyyyy did Quaithe make mention of Jorah's betrayal if they weren't even going to touch on the three? I thought for sure that since they brought that up it would be mentioned at the HotU.

I'm OK with most of the changes or omissions, but honestly, it seems to me that the show is very heavily script edited while they are shooting. It often has that herky jerky feel, at least to me.

[Lord SnavE OtirB]

Not true- 1st season was awesome, even when a few things diverged. And a few times some changes were for the better, or helped make a point more clearly. This season wasn't about little things, it was major plots and characters completely re-worked, often for no good reason, and always for the worse. It's not just budget stuff- that can be forgiven. It's many times simple things like what is said that totally changes the point of the story. No reason to screw with it so much and believe me, it will come back and bite the writers later on when all these things add up to huge mess that will be that much harder to resolve.

I agree with you, there are changes that i cant understand why they did it

[Stenbuck]

I'm usually not one to get into discussions like these but please people, stop flaming whoever dislikes the changes done to the story and the characters. We are not "lucky" to have the series, it's not a "gift" - I mean, it's nice that it's being adapted, but you have to remember that HBO is making money out of it, otherwise they simply wouldn't be making the episodes at all. I simply cannot fathom why changes would be done to stuff like dialogue, or why characters have to be pointlessly changed. The first season was INCREDIBLE; in fact, it is so faithful to the book that I tell everyone I know who has watched it to skip straight ahead to the second book; the only thing they really lose is the Tower of Joy. However, the changes done in this season were not, IN ANY WAY, minor, as some people seem to be suggesting. Syrio having hair is so ridiculously minor I didn't even notice it until people pointed out that some were complaining about it. Mago dying is insignificant, they can just replace him. However, in terms of only characterisation, in this episode alone:

Why have Brienne be sadistic? She killed her first man only in book 4, and it was a huge event in her life. Now she stabs this dude in the belly out of pure spite?

Why turn Shae's character completly around like this? Is she not going to sell Tyrion out? If she is, how do they expect to sell it to viewers?

Why make LF so overt with Sansa and offer her the means to escape himself (this reminds me - why did they bother with Dontos if they're gonna skip that plot point?) - this could obviously bite him in the ass later, and LF is not one to make such mistakes.

Why have Jaqen make Arya understand as if she would join the FM to learn how to become an assassin with the explicit purpose of getting revenge?

Why kill the development for Jon and Qhorin? All they needed to do was do away with that stupid chase with Ygritte (or maybe chase then lose her and find his brothers) and have Jon be ambushed along with Qhorin, just like in the books. Hell, it could've even saved time in the end.

etc.

I'm not saying the series is broken, or bad, or any number of things. However, me and many others feel that the changes are pointless, add nothing to the story, are often NOT related to the book-> TV transition (see all of the above), and only actually weaken the overall plot and characters. Which is just... sad.

The House of the Undying, as the OP mentioned, was like a punch in the gut. It's one of Dany's most important chapters and it is also one of the most important chapters for the series as a whole. Much of what she sees there will guide her thoughts and her actions all through the next books (three heads has the dragon, three treasons will you know, etc. etc.), while also being a lost opportunity for a great, trippy scene, while ALSO losing the potential for TV viewers to discuss the prophecies and what is to come. It felt just so... empty and contrived the way it was done. Did not like. :(

[Ser Giant]

I can't believe people expected a "based on" TV show to to be so close to the novels. I am more surprised that the show keeps as much of the source material as it does. If you can't view it as absolutely independant from the books you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

This is a great television show(even though there was so much cheese in tonight's dialogue that I'm now constipated), this isnt a perfect adaptation of a novel. It never will be. They dont have a team of GRRMs locked in a dungeon cranking out episodes.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Of all the atrocious decisions taken in the adaptation of the second season -- having Joffrey and not Cersei be the one to order the killing of the bastards, having Robb fall for a spunky and socially progressive chick from Volantis, cutting out virtually all of the poignant material between Jon and Qhorin, leaving out virtually all the dark character development from Arya's arc, to name but a few -- the utter travesty that is the show's version of the House of the Undying takes the cake. In fact, it takes the whole dessert table.

I/we will be writing a longer piece on how poorly handled both Dany and Dany's whole storyline have been in the second season, contrasting it with the very clear purpose of Qarth in the books, so right now I am just concentrating on the House of the Undying.

I can't wait to read that, Linda. I keep complaining to my non-reader husband that they have really done a number on the character of Danaerys. It's really aggravating. In fact, all of the women in GoT have been written with the same broad brush: spunky, bitchy, shrewish. Here comes Sansa! oh look, she's a bratty smart aleck. Here comes Shae! Oh look, she's a spunky, smart aleck, take-charge girl! Here comes, whoever that replacement Jeyne Westerling is! oh look, isn't she spunky, take-charge and socially-conscious!Here comes Dany! oh, watch her scream about what's hers! Here comes Brienne! oh look how spunky and take-charge she is!

I understand that there was alot of hand-wringing about the treatment of women in Westeros last season. But come on! Can't we have one woman who is multifaceted, or even (gasp!) sweet, innocent, kind...and still strong? is the only way to be a strong woman by being bitchy? grrr

We have, as of yet, not had a single mention of either the Song of Ice and Fire or the Prince that was Promised in the series. What more, not only did they cut out the visions, they cut the whole prophecy. So far, all we have gotten for Dany is an abbreviated version of Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy.

So, they continue to cut out the past from the story and in addition to that they also cut out most of the prophecies. Both these are very significant elements of the story. Whatever the producers and writers might think, A Song of Ice and Fire isn't just about battles and boobs.

The past still matters, it enriches and makes the present more poignant. We'll likely never see Rhaegar now, not to mention Elia. What viewers will care about them? What viewers will care about Rhaegar and Lyanna when they ultimately have to become more important to the story? What viewers will care particularly about the Martells without any establishing of Elia?

The prophecies...well, who can deny their importance? As we see in A Dance with Dragons, even the most obscure ones do come true, just not in ways one might have expected. Magic isn't just dragons and Others.

/agree Linda. ASoIaF is one long, complicated and possibly intertwined mystery. I myself am constantly re-reading, trying to unravel GRRM's mystery in eacy nuanced scene, memory, half-told story, awkward pauses, etc. It's the heart of the book series. But not apparently, GoT.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a multi-layered and multi-faceted story. That also means that people do read it for different reasons. Some may take in all aspects of the story with near equal enjoyment, others may favour some aspects and dislike others. The mysteries of the past and the prophecies fuel a large amount of the discussion on the forums. They are clearly important aspects for many, many fans. And the show has just ripped them out of the story almost wholesale.

Furious doesn't come close to describing what I am today. Nor does disappointed.

Right there with you, Sister.

I had said before the season started that for this season, the only thing I really hoped for was that they would get the House of the Undying right. If not, I would find it hard to continue watching. Since they didn't even try to get it right, they just threw it in the trash, I have absolutely no interest in watching any more. Unfortunately, we have a lot tied up in the coverage of the show, so I'll probably have to keep watching to some degree anyway. But I no longer look forward to new episodes because the story has been gutted of what matters the most to me and because I do not expect any of the scenes I truly care about to make it in, at least not without being butchered beyond recognition.

As far as I am concerned, it is no longer an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire, it is an mainly an original story in the A Song of Ice and Fire setting. And it isn't particularly good.

I almost quit during the season, and it is no longer "must see TV" for me. I am not sure I can live on one GRRM-penned episode a season.

cooper56, how much can they change the story before it crosses the line from an adaptation to an 'inspired by'? Where is that line for you?

For those of you backlashing against us readers, Linda's post is not directed to you. It's directed to fans (the readers) of A Song of Ice and Fire. sbjackdaw hits the nail on the head: at what point do the changes to the story mean that GoT is no longer an adaptation? It seems to me that it has definitely gone the way of "inspired by". Which is fine for those of you who just like watching the HBO series. I'll be a reader who may be bowing out. And sharing with my fellow readers the reasons why.

Linda, thank you so much for your post! I felt very alone in my opinion.

[CacauCinnamon]

I had disappointments. Still, I think it is some great series and is still think is a good adaptation!

Was I sad that Arya's story did not go as dark as I expected? Oh boy, yes I was.

Was I sad that the House of the Undying wasn't more like the books? Yup. At least a whisper while she's leaving could have been awesome...

Still, I think Theon was handled well and many parts were handled well. We don't know if the profecies won't show up some other way. It's not the final season, just the second one!

I was sad they were blowing my ship when the Reeds did not show up, but hey! Season 3 will have them and my ship will be setting sail again!

And hey, ppl! No prejudice with the book readers! I have lots of friends who've read the books and all of them enjoy the series.

Sometimes we discuss changes, yes, but I love this series and I'm grateful for it.

I wouldn't have discovered the books if it wasn't for the first season. I've devoured the books since.

It is an adaptation. Changes will happen. Some you'll like, some you won't, but it's the overall that counts and we still have some seasons yet to see. We can't know what is totally left behind until the last one... Specially big things.

Still, I understand pouring your heart out is important sometimes! :)

Well, I'll be anxious for season 3! Actually, already am!

[teetch]

I thought the choices made in the HoTU scenes were odd as well, though that darned baby was so "stallion that mounts the world"-- CUTE. The scene in the throne room was really dazzling, but I wanted more of the prophecies to show up as well. I wonder if Quaithe will show up to prognosticate more as the "khalasar" take their leave of Qarth next season. Word has it that the Reeds WILL show up next season (Yay), as well as some other familiar missing in action faces. I was so VERY glad to see Summer and Shaggydog finally show up again...where the heck were they when Theon (rhymes with...oh...not yet)...was taking over the damn place, or when the "invisible" bastard---Ramsay Bolton torched Winterfell? And come to think of it...where the heck is Ghost? I dunno...I must be rather alone in actually LIKING Robb's choice somewhat better in the film...Jeyne just didn't do much for me...this woman seems more of a match for the "King in the North"...though still a deadly mistake, no less. Finally...I did not like the ending scene very well...I think it just showed way too much...it should have been much more suspenseful and drawn out...if they HAD to change it. When is "Sam the Slayer" going to show up do you suppose? He's just sitting there getting stared at...and the White Walker, though not "bad", didn't live up to the truly fearful depiction...showing less...doing more...in the VERY first episode. *sigh* I like the show, I really do. I can't help it. I kind of enjoy picking apart the differences, but I can't help but enjoy the show.

[Ffiferoo]

I have to say, I find it rather silly how many people will come into threads like this one and the nitpick threads to complain about people being unhappy about changes. Everyone keeps saying that if people don't like the changes from the book, stop watching the show - how about if you don't want to read opinions that criticize the show, just don't read those posts, keep scrolling, read the next one that doesn't bother you. Even easier than changing the channel.

[victim]

Actually, I loved the HotU and the rest of this episode. I felt like HotU was amicable in that it was shown to be a very magical place that is very far from reality -- it almost felt as though Dany had stumbled into her own little slice of heaven before everything went wrong. The "Dracarys" scene was done quite well, though I will admit the fire CGI looked cheesy as hell.

I loved-loved-loved the Tyrion/Shae/Varys scene, as well as the scene in the throne room; everything in King's Landing pretty much. Theon's scene with Luwin was magical, my only wish is that we got to see a bit of the Sack of Winterfell and what happened to Dagmer, Black Loren and unconscious-Theon; it really felt as though the iron-born burnt Winterfell on their own, I wish Luwin gave us some insight. Sam being left alone by the White Walker was very strange as well, but the scene served it's purpose and was the perfect mirror to last season's dragon reveal.

I am very interested to see what non-book readers say of the Jon/Qhorin fight. I personally felt like more time was needed for them to do it right, perhaps a scene earlier in the episode would have sufficed to reiterate that Qhorin wanted Jon 'to do what must be done.' It almost seemed as Jon did what he did out of self-defense, which is very wrong. Though the "We are the watcher's on the Wall" was extremely well placed and I think will very much remind everyone of who Jon is, despite him losing his way.

Ros may actually have a purpose now as something other than boob-girl, which is kind of cool.

[Fredwin]

Never mind HotU, that ending was weak. I thought I was suddenly watching The Walking Dead. As so White Walkers just look at Sam and walk right past him? Rrriigghhtttt

I have to agree with this. I don't care about book vs television much, but this was just a poorly done scene. If you don't have a budget, don't make it so obvious. I've seen undead in crappy zombie movie remakes that look more threatening than that. The white walker looked pretty cool, but wow, that's NOT how you introduce it.

[The Last Reyne]

I sympathize with some of your points but to be honest (and don't take this personally) reading your post reinforces one of the main reasons why non-book readers despise those who have read the books. The endless complaining about characters not being introduced or events happening in the books but not in the show and vice-versa. There were warnings of this when the writers said that some characters introduction would be delayed until the next season....but people didn't listen. They said that they would adapt the series as a whole not each individual book....but people didn't listen. Most complain about future plots being ruined when you DON'T KNOW HOW IT WILL END ON THE SHOW. Some review episodes based on how close it is to the books rather than each episode on its merits. Don't bring me this "I don't care if it's the same...I just want good writing" because 95% of non-book readers love the writing on the show.

If you don't like it...don't watch it and please don't spread your misery on to those who enjoy the series. People have complained since SYRIO WAS SHOWN WITH HAIR! You have your opinion, I respect it (despite what my rant suggests, I really don't hate any of ya'll lol) but you have to understand for those who love the show AND the books, it is depressing to see some of these comments. Again I hate to sound like a broken record but I'm not trying to offend anyone or start a flame war.

If you do not agree either state your opinion arguing against or do not read this thread. It seems pretty clear from the thread title that this was likely to be a rant thread. If it depresses you so much stay away from those types of threads. Those of us who like a little misery adn to be able to rant a bit will be fine without you constantly telling us to get over it. Perhaps you should get over it.

Having said that lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Much was good about the episode and the season. The important part is they got the characters to the points they needed to get to in the end. Would I have preferred more time with the Halhand (who's story line they really butchered)? Yes. Would I have preferred weasel soup? Yes. Would I have preferred more from the HOTU (like maybe one prophecy)? Yes. But in the end the main characters got into the positions they needed to be in to see the story move in the right direction. In the end I think that it is what most readers are concerned with.

[phonybaloney]

I thought the scene was weak, but the one thing that grates more than any other is the sheer number of "relationship" conversations they contrived out of thin air. In just this episode there were long and relatively pointless scenes between Rob/new wife, Dany/Drogo, and Tyrion/Shae.

I understand broadening an audience and making the show accessible to more people, but they just waste scene after scene with this romance bent. They're just kind of missing the point of what made the books great.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

I thought the choices made in the HoTU scenes were odd as well, though that darned baby was so "stallion that mounts the world"-- CUTE. The scene in the throne room was ..... *sigh* I like the show, I really do. I can't help it. I kind of enjoy picking apart the differences, but I can't help but enjoy the show.

Actually, I loved the HotU and the rest of this episode.....I

loved-loved-loved the Tyrion/Shae/Varys scene, as well as the scene in the throne room; everything in King's Landing pretty much. Theon's scene with Luwin was magical, my only wish is ...

.... but the scene served it's purpose and was the perfect mirror to last season's dragon reveal.

I am very interested to see what non-book readers say of the Jon/Qhorin fight. ....

...Ros may actually have a purpose now as something other than boob-girl, which is kind of cool.

I'd like to thank you both for your really calm and reasonable defense of the HBO series. Unlike what someone wrote above, rudeness and name-calling are not just part of the Internet, at least, not on these forums. Though you both disagreed with the OP, you did so respectfully and stated your defense of the show.

Anyway, thanks for showing the classless folks above how disagreement on Asoiaf.westeros.org is done.

edited to include The Last Reyne and The Great Unwashed for kudos and thanks.

edited: the awesome Moderators have taken care of the very rude posts that were in this thread, which may make this post confusing to new visitors. Suffice it to say, that Civility may be knocked around briefly on these forums, but she always comes back to rule. With help from the Mods. :-)