[Book Spoilers] Game of Thrones, an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire? Not any more.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The way it was adapted, the entire House of the Undying plot could have been cut with no damage to the plot or character development.

I'll play the heretic and say that the House of Undying plot could have been cut with no damage even if it was portrayed exactly as in the book.

To me, the House of the Undying primarily amounts to a fun guessing game for readers of the series. The wolf's head turned in mute appeal -- okay, it foreshadowed the Red Wedding, and was fun in that respect. But it didn't change the Red Wedding, nor did Dany's vision of it change her actions because she has no clue as to what it was. Blue flower in the wall -- same thing. Nice foreshadowing for those of us "in the know", but it still changes nothing, and doesn't actually affect character development or plot progression because Dany's draws no significance from it. Nor did the show actually mention previously anything about the blue rose being Lyanna's favorite flower. It would have been a non sequitor in the TV adaptation. As has been said, the few prophecies that really do matter can just as easily come from Qaithe, in which case, neither character development nor plot will be adversely impacted.

HOTU is great fun for us fanboys, but for TV viewers, all those completely unexplained images would have just been completely confusing when you're not talking about books you can pore over in rereads to grasp their significance. I think the most common general viewer reaction would have been confusion, so skipping that scene makes sense.

It seems a bit odd to me that some folks act as if the omission of HOTU as written somehow eliminates it from our consciousness. We still know about it and can debate/discuss it, even in the context of the HBO series because the series is still getting all the plot points correct. HBO won't be changing Jon's parentage, or that the dragon will have three heads, or the Red Wedding. It's just that us readers have a bit of additional insight that TV viewers don't. All we really missed out on was a visual representation of one scene from the books -- it's not a major alteration of the plot. Seems like a lot to be upset about.

I'll go further out on a limb and say that I didn't even mind the inclusion of Drogo -- it's a dream sequence, not reality, so the changes don't bother me. And the Drogo scene was a pretty effective way of showing that Danaery's is moving on from just being the Khaleesi, to being the Mother of Dragons. It showed her making that choice.

As things stand at the end of season 2, every plot thread is pretty much exactly where it needs to be for Season 3. That's pretty impressive considering some of the changes along the way.

[nubreed000]

The motives of the FM now change to "they will help you seek vengence on that list of yours" instead of death is a gift and the FM do NOT allow personal motives to play into their decision making

and

ARYA DID NOT KILL ANYONE!

That's ok because Brienne made up for it by killing something like 6 people already.

[MuchandMore]

I can't believe people expected a "based on" TV show to to be so close to the novels. I am more surprised that the show keeps as much of the source material as it does. If you can't view it as absolutely independant from the books you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

This is a great television show(even though there was so much cheese in tonight's dialogue that I'm now constipated), this isnt a perfect adaptation of a novel. It never will be. They dont have a team of GRRMs locked in a dungeon cranking out episodes.

I want to quote this whole thread....but I'll just pick this one.

If this were a movie....a 2 or 3 hour MOVIE, then I would agree with you. Its not! They have 10 f****** hours to put as much of the book in the show as possible, and they ruined it. So no, not setting up for disappointment.....just plain disappointed that they abandoned all that made season 1 good.

Season 1 stuck very close to the book. And most of the changes, like Ned fighting Jamie in the street instead of him just giving an order to his guards, made for better television. Season 2 is a complete mess. There is no other way to put it. The only...THE ONLY episode I can actually say I enjoyed was the Blackwater. Thats it.

I see no reason for the changes they've made.

And the HotU was not a little disappointing, or not that great.....its was absolutely, truly, completely, HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Robb marrying some made up characters is STUPID! There is no reason for it.

And Arya...poor, poor Arya. One of the best scenes in SOS is when SHE kills the Tickler, and yells the questions at him. Brilliant job ruining that one guys.

And why mention Stannis taking Stoms End and Renly changing directions to face him....thats not important at all.

Betrayed for Love....betrayed for gold......nah....who cares right?

So, going forward with this show, who is their target audience. Me, someone who read the books? Or Joe Shmoe who wants to look at titties from 9 to 10 on TV in April?

If this show is as popular as people make it out to be, than HBO has to fix it...NOW! Make it 15 episodes if they can't fit the important stuff in. Spend a little damn money! Lord knows they charge enough to get the friggin channel!

And the worst........THE WORST.....part about this season, is that this crap..all the preparation and casting and appearances and what not, were all a complete waste of time George could have spent writing the next book. When is it suppose to come out anyway? 2015 or so? This show should have started once the books were done. If it were actually GOOD, it may be a different story. But its a joke instead.

[Bayard]

What I find the most offensive are the differences between characters. D&D like a lot Theon and Tyrion, I heard it from their own mouth, so, their scenes are faithful to the books (the changes made are only because of financial reasons - like the omission of Ramsay). On the other hand, the ones they don't like, for example Stannis, they change the most... to fit their own vision of the story!!! That shows the measure of respect they actually have for the ASOIAF books.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Can you point me to the Marg POV chapters where you are basing this judgement?

Marg in the books is not some goody goody two shoes who is sugar and spice and everything nice. shes a plotting coniving player in the game of thrones, who helped plan the assassination of joffrey in order to marry little tommen.. if anything the TV show has enhanced her character because it shows just how involved she is.

I don't think GRRM would have approved a character development inconsistent with his view of the character, even if the portrayal isn't identical. Events in AFFC suggest that perhaps HBO's approach isn't really off. The same with complaints about Stannis, etc. Again, in terms of plot, HBO is in the right place, and I suspect they'll do that at the end of each season. So, they can't make characters that are truly inconsistent with their portrayal in the books, because those characters have to act appropriately at key plot points. Choosing a slightly different emphasis isn't heresy in my book, and you can almost guarantee not in GRRM's book either.

[dreamcatcher]

HOTU is great fun for us fanboys, but for TV viewers, all those completely unexplained images would have just been completely confusing when you're not talking about books you can pore over in rereads to grasp their significance. I think the most common general viewer reaction would have been confusion, so skipping that scene makes sense.

Are "us fanboys" and TV viewers a different thing? No. Almost every single person I know that watches Game of Thrones has read the books. ADwD has been #1 on Amazon best selling list last year, and also the books are in the top ten for how long now?? For years. This "fandom" is HUGE. The show was greatly helped by the word-of-mouth, and well, they seriously screwed up this season, I don't think the word of mouth is going to pass around as much.

[Ran]

GRRM doesn't get approval on such things, though. The only thing they ever really do is, if he reveals that some detail will have some negative impact on something he's planning to reveal or do down the line, they may change it. And sometimes, even knowing that they will, they don't actually deviate from their course. I know of a couple of examples of changes that they made that they stuck to even after GRRM noted the problem. (The Mago thing doesn't quite count -- GRRM wasn't even aware of Mago getting killed until everything had been shot) I also know of a couple of instances where they did change things when he noted problems -- again, can't talk about them.

That said, no, I don't have that much of an issue with Margaery being changed up to be a more overt political player. Margaery is one in the novels, just a lot more subtle about it.

As to the confusing images and all... I mean, maybe? But the fact is that if you look at the huge following that shows like Lost and X-Files and Twin Peaks had at their heights, people absolutely adore being confused by symbolism and images and foreshadowing. They love mystery.

This show has drained almost every ounce of mystery out of the narrative in the novels, and simply leaves with basic plot stuff like, "Who will win?" That's not really a mystery.Hell, not a single real reference to the catspaw trying to kill Bran, nor the identity of Jon Arryn's murderer, and they appear to clear up who sent Mandon Moore after Tyrion -- a question that's never resolved in the novels, so far as I can tell.

That's probably the greatest thematic deviation of the show from the novels: an antipathy to mystery. George uses it to great effect, as tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands, more likely) of posts discussing all the mysteries in the series reveal. It was the last thing -- literally the last thing -- I ever believed that the showrunners would jettison in their adaptation. The first season, hinging as it did on mysteries, or characters exploring things that were mysteries to them, certainly gave no hint that the second season would be devoid of them.

[deleted01]

What I find the most offensive are the differences between characters. D&D like a lot Theon and Tyrion, I heart it from their own mouth, so, their scenes are faithful to the books (the changes made are only because of financial reasons - like the omission of Ramsay). On the other hand, the ones they don't like, for example Stannis, they change the most... to fit their own vision of the story!!! That show the measure of respect they actually have for the ASOIAF books.

If this is true, they do not deserve to be in charge of this adaptation. I hope GRRM makes a stand soon - it must be heart-breaking for him to see his work being made a mess of like this.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I thought they made a pigs mess out of Theon's storyline, pretty much because they omitted Ramsay. Now with Season 3 coming, instead of creating what was a sick-twisted yet cunning character what ACOK lead to, he's going to seem just like a generic villain.

I think one of the constraints they have here is hiring actors, using them efficiently, etc. Hiring Ramsay Bolton for Season 2 so he can make a 30 second appearance in the last episode of the series would seem to be a bit of a waste, and likely confusing to readers wondering "who the hell is this guy"? So, they leave the explanation and exposition of all that to Season 3, where he'll be involved in more episodes and scenes.

[7V3N]

The finale was an utter disappointment. The HotU was nothing near what it was in the books and major plot devices were thrown out entirely. Qarth was nothing like the books in any way.

Arya is not dark at all. She is still in innocent girl looking for home. That is NOT like the books. I think taking away her killing the Harrenhall guard took away the true start of Arya's dark, dark, DARK path.

Jon and Qhorin was stupid. They made it look like Jon actually got pissed in the fight (because of Qhorin's bastard/turncloak comments) and killed Qhorin in a rage. It looks like Jon has actually turned his cloak, and is not pretending. In the book it started as pretending then started being real, not the reverse.

I HATE how things went down at Winterfell. What they did could have been fine if afterwards, the Boltons still came and burned Winterfell and took Theon.

Robb's story--which I was so pumped for this season, because I figured they would take advantage of GRRM's lack of a POV character and really show some of Robb's battles--was just a cliche and lame. And changing Jeyne to Talisa and making it a typical teenage romance that just could not be allowed..

I am convinced the Shae-trayal will not happen. They are making her actually love him. In the book, you were never clear on whether she was an expert whore, or if she could actually fall for Tyrion (kind of like a hope you know is just too good to be true).

Hodor isn't Hodoring!

The messups have just been horrible. These changes have no purpose. There is no reason to go away from the original in almost all cases (I understand making Arya Tywin's cupbearer. That was a good case of condensing the story.).

Having said that, they need to take hints from the good moments. GRRM's writing for Blackwater was amazing, even if I was disappointed by the lack of scale in the battle and the cheesiness (no helmet or shield for the unguarded Stannis, but he is the first to step under the raining arrows on the beach). Also, everything after Qhorin Halfhand died was awesome in my opinion (though I still do not like how the Others are just leaving people in the show, and it didn't sound like cracking ice when it spoke).

[Howdyphillip]

I don't think GRRM would have approved a character development inconsistent with his view of the character, even if the portrayal isn't identical. Events in AFFC suggest that perhaps HBO's approach isn't really off.

I don't believe this at all. As a matter of fact, I have heard him talk about the changes in the characters, and although he doesn't ever slander the show, he makes it known that the characters aren't his to be approving or disapproving. I don't think that he likes the changes in Catelyn or Littlefinger one bit. (just speculating based on video clips I have seen.)

He does point out that there are some characters that he likes better than the way he wrote them in contrast. One of them is Osha. He has said that he is going to give her more plot in future books based on how much he liked her portrayal in the show.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I sympathize with disappointment in the House of the Undying sequence, but I think the opening post is a HUGE overreaction filled with extreme hyperbole and exaggeration. Yes, it sucked that we didn't get to see Rheagar and Elia, yes, I would like more prophecy in the show, but 75% of what happened in this episode still came from A Song of Ice and Fire. Nearly every scene led to where these characters will be going in A Storm of Swords, from Arya given the coin and looking for her mother to Jon joining the Wildlings to Robb marying someone else and breaking his pact with Walder Frey. To claim that it's an original story in the ASoIaF world is clearly not the case.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Are "us fanboys" and TV viewers a different thing? No.

Yes. The former is a subset of the latter. HBO necessarily must be concerned about building and maintaining an audience that includes people who have not read all the books. Crap, almost everyone I know in RL who watches it hasn't read the books. For friends on the 'net, it's reversed.

Almost every single person I know that watches Game of Thrones has read the books.

Not me. Perhaps different demographics (probably older), but I know folks who watch it who've never read a fantasy book in their lives, or at least, nothing since LOTR.

ADwD has been #1 on Amazon best selling list last year, and also the books are in the top ten for how long now?? For years. This "fandom" is HUGE. The show was greatly helped by the word-of-mouth, and well, they seriously screwed up this season, I don't think the word of mouth is going to pass around as much.

Well, I disagree. For all the carping, I strongly suspect that the fans of the written series will keep watching it. The word of mouth of which I'm aware from people who didn't read the books is overwhelmingly positive. And frankly, I'm willing to live with some variations if it means the series stays on the air.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

There wouldn't be this many likes if an admin didn't write that post.

Nah -- I think a lot of people who are fans of the books were really, really disappointed in the HOTU. I know I'm in the distinct minority in thinking it was a non-issue.

[Roose Seal]

Earlier in the season I thought "this is a good show, it doesn't particularly succeed as an adaption, but who cares, it's a good show". After an extremely boring second half of the season (except perhaps Blackwater, which was good) and especially after last night's terrible episode I'm more like "not only is this a shitty adaptation, it's also just real bad TV". It's just sad to watch a show turn out so bad when you know just how good it could be if the writers were..well.. more competent ?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't believe this at all. As a matter of fact, I have heard him talk about the changes in the characters, and although he doesn't ever slander the show, he makes it known that the characters aren't his to be approving or disapproving. I don't think that he likes the changes in Catelyn or Littlefinger one bit. (just speculating based on video clips I have seen.)

He does point out that there are some characters that he likes better than the way he wrote them in contrast. One of them is Osha. He has said that he is going to give her more plot in future books based on how much he liked her portrayal in the show.

Fair enough. Ran pointed out above that GRRM's input was limited. But, I'm still giving credit to the showrunners for what they've done. Folks claiming it is no longer ASOIAF are, IMHO, massively overreacting. It is, but with some tweaks to maximize it's impact on viewers. I'm fine with that because it is part of the reality of running a show, and obtaining ratings sufficient to keep it going.

[dreamcatcher]

Yes. The former is a subset of the latter. HBO necessarily must be concerned about building and maintaining an audience that includes people who have not read all the books. Crap, almost everyone I know in RL who watches it hasn't read the books.

Would ten seconds of visions keep the audience from rising further? Would having Dany hear "Bride of fire, mother of dragons, three fires must you light" ruin the show more than, say, Ros does? Don't be ridiculous. This is not a decision by HBO, it's a conscious decision by D&D. HBO does what they say should be done (e.g. Blackwater).

[Mediumjon Umber]

If this is true, they do not deserve to be in charge of this adaptation. I hope GRRM makes a stand soon - it must be heart-breaking for him to see his work being made a mess of like this.

Well, he let those two godawful video games (which are total and utter abominations) slide. Why should he make a stand regarding a decent show?

[Dunnii]

I just want to add my name to the chorus that is shocked and disappointed at what they did to Dany this season. Locking up two people in a vault is incredibly cruel and I was actually angry that the writers did that. I honestly don't care a bit now for TV-Dany. She's too ruthless.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Would ten seconds of visions keep the audience from rising further? Would having Dany hear "Bride of fire, mother of dragons, three fires must you light" ruin the show more than, say, Ros does? Don't be ridiculous. This is not a decision by HBO, it's a conscious decision by D&D. HBO does what they say should be done (e.g. Blackwater).

So the omission of that one line ruins the show? They'll likely toss those lines to Quaithe, and the same point will be made, just just by a priestess rather than in a dream sequence. Is that really such a big difference? Did having Theoden say "where is the horse and the rider" rather than Aragorn ruin The Two Towers?

Anyway, I'll also say this -- I wasn't a particularly huge fan of Dany's storyline in the books. I thought it started incredibly strong, but meandered after awhile as her personality seemed a bit wishy-washy to me. I frankly didn't find the continued loyalty of even her much-dimished khalasar very convincing. The HBO Danaerys seems to be made of a bit tougher stuff, and more convincing for the actions she takes later.

Let's be honest -- a lot of folks in this forum have complained about some aspects of the books they haven't liked. Unless everyone just wants to see a line by line repeat of the books, the showrunners are going to make some different calls. I'm okay with that as long as major plot points aren't changed, and as far as I can tell, they haven't been. I personally think the Lyanna storyline has been underdeveloped, but I also could see the showrunners deciding to fix some of that stuff when Selmy is revealed.