[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[Ramsay Gimp]

^Huh?

Guys, this is the lowest point of Stannis's journey so far. In ASOS he tells Davos how he sank into despair after the Blackwater until Melisandre showed him the flames. This scene reflected that well.

It is clear that Weiss and Benioff see Davos and Mel as the angel and devil on Stannis's shoulders, which is also how most book readers likely see it. I know it's a bit more complicated since Mel really believes he is the messiah meant to stop the darkness. But to a certain extent Mel does represent the Witch archetype in the novels

[Clariana]

Or the red woman, or the whore of Babylon, Lilith...

The typical female gendered demon of male imagination.

[Ghost714]

I really REALLY hope this isn't the case.

And I never actually understood the "I will give you a son" line. She is referring to the shadow baby? I still have no idea what Stannis would be thinking in that scene...

--

I'm still very upset about Stannis choking Melisandre. Stannis is not impulsive and violent. Nothing ever hinted that in the books. That is what Robert would do, not Stannis.

The scene was very well acted, but they couldn't have deviated more from the book characters. Melisandre would never find herself in that situation (she survived drinking poison, only R'hllor knows how old and powerful she actually is and she glazes into the fire all the time. Come on!) and Stannis wouldn't atack anyone like this. He would be grinding his teeth and complaining in rage, perhaps, but not atacking someone else like this.

And then, when I think the scene couldn't get any worse, Melisandre tells him he'll betray everything he cares about to get the iron throne and he is actually ok with this as long as gets the iron throne?? This is awful. Now he actually wants the throne and the power? And he doesn't care at all about what she just told him? Are they setting him up like some kind of villain? I don't know if this is the personal view of the producers/writers or if they know something about the future of the book series and are already hinting that... And this worries me. Really. Stannis is my favorite character in this series.

I really like Stephen Dillane's acting, but the writing of his character has been really inconsistent this season. They didn't even set up his major character traits before we see him having sex with Melisandre. Everyone I know who watches the show think he is being manipulated by Melisandre. It's okay to think that while reading the second book, I guess, since we're seeing things from Davos's pov, but not in the show. I can't blame anyone for thinking that while watching the show.

I feel the same way. I was worried about him on the show since the first spoilers about him with Melisandre. After sunday's episode I thought we were going to see a whole lot of upset Stannis fans, but then all I see is approval of that scene.

I could not agree more with this. All your points about Stannis are spot on IMO.

And it is definitely the writers own personal opinion of Stannis that is reflecting in how the write the character, that's not how he really is in the books. D B Weiss has actually said Stannis would be a horrible King in a behind the scenes video, and I hate it. The writers own personal opinions of the character should not reflect in how they write the characters, when doing an adaptation. D&D think Stannis is bad, so that's how they are making him, instead of the grey character we see in the books. It ridiculous IMO, many readers believe Stannis overall "good", and that he would make a great King. The writers should let the viewers make up their own minds, like in the books, they should not tell you how to feel about a character.

I also love Stephen Dillane as Stannis, and his acting is great, the problem is the writing of his character, for sure.

Even though most of us thought Stannis and Mel were "bad" at first, I don't see the show giving them a "face turn" like in the books, and if they do, I am afraid viewers won't buy it, because they have made them both "to bad". So the future "face turn", if they do it, will seem ridiculous. I hope I am wrong, and I hope they are just misleading the viewers for now..

[Tetrarch42]

I'm surpised fans liked this scene, as others have pointed out, Stannis is cold and calculating, not a tempermental hothead, he doesn't strangle people.

I much preferred the scene in the books when he's considering sacrificng Edric and tells Melisandre that if she's not certain there's another way she will "die by inches".

Also, I feel Stannis is much more lead around by Melisandre in the series than the books, you can tell she's completely seducing him, both sexually and with ideations of power. It makes her look like a manipulative whore, and him look like an insecure megalomaniac. In the book he defends her when Davos accuses her for the defeat of the Blackwater, if that scene is shown in the series it will seem like Stannis is just completely indoctrinated by her.

[DurararaFTW]

I'm surpised fans liked this scene, as others have pointed out, Stannis is cold and calculating, not a tempermental hothead, he doesn't strangle people.

I much preferred the scene in the books when he's considering sacrificng Edric and tells Melisandre that if she's not certain there's another way she will "die by inches".

Also, I feel Stannis is much more lead around by Melisandre in the series than the books, you can tell she's completely seducing him, both sexually and with ideations of power. It makes her look like a manipulative whore, and him look like an insecure megalomaniac. In the book he defends her when Davos accuses her for the defeat of the Blackwater, if that scene is shown in the series it will seem like Stannis is just completely indoctrinated by her.

Well if the scene doesn't happen then the whole Davos being imprisoned for trying to kill Melisandre will have to happen behind his back, wheras in the books it's strongly suggested he knew all about it. Either way, Stannis' character is gonna suffer more in the future for this.

[Queen Regent]

He choked her for a LONG time. I was surprised when she didn't start coughing or something!

[StarkWard]

Is it so unbelievable for Stannis to choke a woman? Or anyone for that matter? His newly-acquired army is almost gone, his ships are gone, his Hand is gone. The guy needed a good outlet for his frustration. A good f*ck would have worked, but the mood's not right.

My take on it is that Stannis was so confident that he will win the battle because of Mel's visions. He was willing to let hundreds, no, thousands die because he was assured of victory. He would never have pushed through with the attack on foot had he not been so confident of the favorable outcome. And now that the outcome was not so favorable, Stannis blames the woman who encouraged him in the first place.

[Ghost714]

Is it so unbelievable for Stannis to choke a woman? Or anyone for that matter? His newly-acquired army is almost gone, his ships are gone, his Hand is gone. The guy needed a good outlet for his frustration. A good f*ck would have worked, but the mood's not right.

My take on it is that Stannis was so confident that he will win the battle because of Mel's visions. He was willing to let hundreds, no, thousands die because he was assured of victory. He would never have pushed through with the attack on foot had he not been so confident of the favorable outcome. And now that the outcome was not so favorable, Stannis blames the woman who encouraged him in the first place.

Yeah but that just makes Stannis look stupid, because Melisandre told him she saw his victory in the flames, if he was willing to take her advise and keep her by his side. So when Stannis sent Melisandre back to Dragonstone, he put the nail in his own coffin, and book Stannis can see that after the battle, show Stannis can't.

So yeah I understand Stannis is frustrated, who wouldn't be? But book Stannis was so angry because his pride got in the way, so he knew it was his fault. Show Stannis just thinks its Mel's fault. In my opinion, that's just one more way for the show to make Melisandre look evil, because she is "just trying to destroy Stannis". I personally think that's bullshit, Melisandre in the books was not trying to destroy Stannis, nor was she trying to just manipulate him. She was truly trying to help Stannis, and she truly thinks he is R'hllor's chosen one.

The show is just making both these characters to "bad", or "evil", when they should be grey characters, that are over all "good" when looking at the "big picture".

And I really could not seeing book Stannis chocking a woman, no matter the sercumstances... But then again, the show has done a lot to change Stannis from his character in the books. So I guess what's it matter if it's out of character for him to choke a woman, most of show Stannis is out of character anyway, right?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I just don't buy this scene. Melisandre is so dignified in the books, with so much presence, I don't believe in the books any man standing next to her would try to strangle her. Plus the show seems determined to make Melisandre evil, when in the books she's a very ambiguous character, who may be misguided and believes the end (of saving the entire human race) justifies the means, but never selfish or vindictive.

[Ghost714]

I just don't buy this scene. Melisandre is so dignified in the books, with so much presence, I don't believe in the books any man standing next to her would try to strangle her. Plus the show seems determined to make Melisandre evil, when in the books she's a very ambiguous character, who may be misguided and believes the end (of saving the entire human race) justifies the means, but never selfish or vindictive.

Yes.

My thoughts exactly. Neither Melisandre, nor Stannis is evil, but for some reason D&D are determined to make them as such in the show.

[Tetrarch42]

Violence without cause, especially against women doesn't seem Stannis' style; he refuses to let wildling women fight for him in A Dance with Dragons, even though they could bolster his vanguard, and he's never shown to be violent on a personal level. He's an excellent battle commancer but he never lost control and lashed out in the books physically.

He repeats on more than one occasion that he isn't a cruel man; Robert hits when he gets mad and that goes with his immature, drunken persona, Stannis is more the type of threaten or order executions.

Melisandre as others have pointed out is completely believing in Stannis as her hero and saviour, I always saw it as both of them seeing each other as means to an end and slowly growing to actually care for each other which was an interesting development but seems to be dropped in the series.

Very weak characterization for both characters this season; biggest gripe I have with Season 2.

[Lord Over]

^Huh?

Google 'Burger King Where is your God now'

[Vandalism]

Stannis is my favourite character in the series. I have divided views on the Melisandre-choking; Stannis is the sort who would get extremely frustrated at a loss that was initially going to be a great victory. Especially since it was not the Lannisters at KL who beat him but the Tyrells and Tywin.

I'd understand him grinding his teeth and saying "Damn ya!" but not choking Mel. He would never lay hands on a woman, not even one he'd slept with.

[Lord Wadsworth]

I still think Stannis was trying to prove a point. Pointing out the falsehood that is her god. While we know from the books that the Red God does seem to have some power (Or it's just magic) Stannis hasn't seen that yet.

He wanted to prove to her that her god was nothing. He could have choked her right then and there.

Besides as we know, Mel would have seen this coming in the flames. She always saw threats to herself before anything else, if I recall correctly that is.

[Mad Queen]

Me too. He wasn't trying to punish her for his defeat. It was a (very hard) lesson about war. He was trying to say, "You promised me I would win because your god is protecting me. Here is what I think of this notion -- I'm choking you with my hands and your god isn't protecting you. You could die at my hands. It always comes down to who is stronger." And Stannis doesn't have a lot of military strength, especially after Blackwater.

[Harrad]

He wanted to prove to her that her god was nothing. He could have choked her right then and there.

Nope. Stannis knows her god is something. He knows that her god led to the murder of Renly. He acknowledged their complicity in that. He was just being petulant by choking her. Notice, he just punished her, did not kill her. Same thing he did to Davos. Stannis is a brutal warlord with an average mind. He's not a sadistic moron like Joffrey.

[Tetrarch42]

Nope. Stannis knows her god is something. He knows that her god led to the murder of Renly. He acknowledged their complicity in that. He was just being petulant by choking her. Notice, he just punished her, did not kill her. Same thing he did to Davos. Stannis is a brutal warlord with an average mind. He's not a sadistic moron like Joffrey.

Does Stannis have only an average mind? I figured he was at least the most intelligent of the Baratheon brothers. He's shown to be an excellent battlefield tactician on land and sea and he seems to be pretty adept at the political game as well.

[Harrad]

Does Stannis have only an average mind? I figured he was at least the most intelligent of the Baratheon brothers. He's shown to be an excellent battlefield tactician on land and sea and he seems to be pretty adept at the political game as well.

Average aint bad. Compare with Joffrey, Ned Stark, Robb, Theon, Hound, Mountain, Dany, Joras etc. Above average minds go to Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys...get the picture?

[Jory]

Average aint bad. Compare with Joffrey, Ned Stark, Robb, Theon, Hound, Mountain, Dany, Joras etc. Above average minds go to Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys...get the picture?

No... sorry. Read the books. Stannis is very smart - he goes into elaborate lessons about history off the top of his head. He was raised by a maester while his brothers mostly did their own thing.

[Harrad]

No... sorry. Read the books. Stannis is very smart - he goes into elaborate lessons about history off the top of his head. He was raised by a maester while his brothers mostly did their own thing.

Don't think so. His claim to fame was his warrior attributes--not his deep thinking. His forary into religion is one example of his avoidance of deep thought. His inability to compromise for his own benefit is another. He does better than some morons in that world, but he does not compare to the above average thinkers I listed.