[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[Harrad]

I think you just don't like Stannis.

I like him as much as I like any fictional character. I just wont go so far as to defend him as a great general when he loses the most important battle in the book thus far. Weren't the Tyrells, not to mention Tywin Lannister, both opposing forces still on the battlefield of Westeros? What would you call a general who doesnt account for major forces in his rear during a critical time of a battle? That's a tactic that Joffrey, the first of his name, might employ.

[Harrad]

I guess Stannis's point was that his defeat at King's Landing was a matter of strategy and military strength, not religion or magic. Tywin "strangled" Stannis as Stannis strangled Mel and Rhllor didn't interfere to save them.

I'll buy that. And who was responsible for strategy and military strength at KL? 'Nuff said.

[Mad Queen]

I'll buy that. And who was responsible for strategy and military strength at KL? 'Nuff said.

I don't think he's blaming Mel for it. He is just saying, "Your prediction was wrong and your god was powerless to help me. And see, Rhllor won't help you either. The only thing that matters is that I'm stronger than you." Message delivered in a very rough way.

[Tetrarch42]

I'm not sure anyone could have forseen the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. As far as I know it was hastily organized by Littlefinger and not even Tyrion or Cersei were aware of the army heading towards the Blackwater, much of the Lannister forces were fighting in the Riverlands if I'm not mistaken.

[Lord Wadsworth]

Davos makes note of Tywin Lannister chasing Robb's forces in the Westerland. Saying they should strike for King's Landing.

Stannis refuses because he needs fear to keep himself powerful at this time due to him having the smallest army so a defeat at Storm's End isn't able to happen.

Stannis makes mention that the majority of Renly's forces are at Bitterbridge and that he sent envoys to there to bring them to his side. The envoys were captured by Loras Tyrell.

So, Stannis then makes hast for King's Landing after the shadow kills Ser Cortnay.

Stannis appointed Ser Imry as Lord High Captain of the Fleet and gave him full command. Ser Imry didn't do the cautious thing and just sent the ships up the river. Davos even remarks how he would have sent scouting ships upriver had he been an Admiral. Ser Imry scoffs at his advice thinking they've no need to fear.

They were aware of Tyrion's chain once they captured fishing boats along the Blackwater. Davos even sees it in the water but he can't be certain as to why they didn't block off the river.

Tyrion's plan was pretty amazing and he had major luck with dragons being born into the world again. He had massive amounts of wildfire. Stannis was likely aware of wildfire but there wasn't much of it in the city and they would have run out soon since there were few promancers and a short supply of wildfire.

So, with the help of magic, Edmure's folly, Imry's overconfidence, and Tyrion's pretty genius plan for the chain in conjunction with the wildfire Stannis was in a bad position.

Yet still, with half his fleet broken and burning, he managed to storm King's Landing and almost take it. Unfortunately Edmure messed up and Tywin had rushed back JUST in time.

Stannis had a good plan, with a strong force. He couldn't account for Edmure, or the magical pyromancers making more wildfire than usual.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

I could not agree more with this. All your points about Stannis are spot on IMO.

And it is definitely the writers own personal opinion of Stannis that is reflecting in how the write the character, that's not how he really is in the books. D B Weiss has actually said Stannis would be a horrible King in a behind the scenes video, and I hate it. The writers own personal opinions of the character should not reflect in how they write the characters, when doing an adaptation. D&D think Stannis is bad, so that's how they are making him, instead of the grey character we see in the books. It ridiculous IMO, many readers believe Stannis overall "good", and that he would make a great King. The writers should let the viewers make up their own minds, like in the books, they should not tell you how to feel about a character.

I also love Stephen Dillane as Stannis, and his acting is great, the problem is the writing of his character, for sure.

Even though most of us thought Stannis and Mel were "bad" at first, I don't see the show giving them a "face turn" like in the books, and if they do, I am afraid viewers won't buy it, because they have made them both "to bad". So the future "face turn", if they do it, will seem ridiculous. I hope I am wrong, and I hope they are just misleading the viewers for now..

I didn't get the same thing from the books as you obviously. Stannis wouldn't make a good king. I thought it was not so subtle that if you put Stannis' best characteristics with Renly's best characteristics you would have a good king. I don't see any "face turn" coming. He wants to kill an innocent child, Edric Storm. Davos then convinces him to instead head to the wall. Then he wins a battle against one of the most pathetic armies(undisciplined and poorly armed and armored) in the realm(after they have been worn down from a failed siege). He tries to manipulate Jon Snow into giving him power in the north. First by offering Winterfell. Second by trying to take all the nightwatchs lands. Third by trying to generate an army. He didn't go to the wall for the good of the realm. He went to gain an army in the north so he could try again to gain the crown. By touting how he was the savior of the realm. When we all know the real battle at the wall is coming. What does Stannis do? He can't wait to get away from the wall to recruit an army. He doesn't do everything because it is his duty. He does what people perceive should be his duty so he can actually add people to his friend list which is awfully short.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

If you're taking military strategy as an index of intelligence then Stannis has all the "above-average" thinkers you listed beat. He outmanouvered and crushed the most powerful fleet in Westeros, nearly stormed the greatest city on the continent, and smashed Mance Rayders army with 1/20 of his strength.

What greatest fleet did he destroy? I don't believe White Harbor or Pyke have been defeated by Stannis. He nearly stormed the greatest city in Westeros that had their main strength with Tywin at Harranhal. And oh yes he crushed the wildings that had pathetic armor and weapons after they had been failing at sieging the wall for some time. Oh and lets not forget he took them by complete surprise. Military genius indeed

[Tetrarch42]

What greatest fleet did he destroy? I don't believe White Harbor or Pyke have been defeated by Stannis. He nearly stormed the greatest city in Westeros that had their main strength with Tywin at Harranhal. And oh yes he crushed the wildings that had pathetic armor and weapons after they had been failing at sieging the wall for some time. Oh and lets not forget he took them by complete surprise. Military genius indeed

Stannis captained the Royal Fleet which smashed the Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, and went on to supress Great Wyk. While White Harbour has a powerful navy, I very much doubt it stacks up to the Iron Fleet.

The Wildling's failed assault on the Wall hardly diminished their numbers given that Mance Rayder told Jon he has the ability to "...continue the attack here[Castle Black] and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too... I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

The fact that the Wildlings are poorly armed makes a significant difference, but not nearly enough to account for the 1:20 army size disparity. This isn't tanks and helicopters against cave men; it's men with steel armor and swords against the far numerically superior men with stone axes and hide/brass armor not to mention giants and mammoths and wargs, all of which Stannis doesn't have.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Site problems repost

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

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[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

I'll grant you the victory on sea. I had forgotten the Greyjoy Rebellion and Stannis part in that. So I'll admit I'm wrong on that count. The Wildlings were battle weary. They had no discipline. They had no defense set for an attack coming from anywhere other than the wall. I don't recall ever hearing about Mance being some great military strategist. Stannis had Castle forged Steel armor and weapons in the form of Cavalry against those # you reported but those include women and children. So no its not tanks and helicopters against cavemen its well armed and disciplined cavalry against fourth generation cavemen. Oh yea and the fact that he took them by complete surprise. Its not like he tactically outwitted Mance. Hell most of them ran. Of course one can't help but notice you left out the fact that he lost at KL with far superior numbers at land and sea and with the main strength of opposing forces with Tywin. So I'll assume you concede that point.

[boojam]

From Mel's lines "you will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear" I got the impression that Stannis eventually will become the Nights King leading the WW, considering D&D know about how the story is going to end.

What do you think?

I tried scanning that in SoS , and can't find the quote , so, I don't know what the hell you will betray everything you once held dear means. Stannis does not hold much of anything dear, except The Letter of the Law.

Maybe his wife and daughter , but they are small potatoes.

In the SoIaF I get the impression that he and Mel and allies are going to have to face down , with R'hllor's help (I can't stand the Red God)....face down 'God whose name should not be spoken' (but has been spoken!, The Great Other, whew, how George dances around that name!).

So far George has woven this Uber-story (the trump plot)... that the big Ragnarök between R'hllor and The Great Other (gez George needs to give that god a one-word name!)

Stannis is going to need all the help he can get hostile or 'dear to him' , if D and D have something else in mind , by way of Geroge, it better be from way way out in left field.

Everybody else in Westeros , except Stannis and the NW, have their thumbs up their ass and a big smile on their faces.

[Harrad]

Cavalry against those # you reported but those include women and children. So no its not tanks and helicopters against cavemen its well armed and disciplined cavalry against fourth generation cavemen. Oh yea and the fact that he took them by complete surprise. Its not like he tactically outwitted Mance. Hell most of them ran. Of course one can't help but notice you left out the fact that he lost at KL with far superior numbers at land and sea and with the main strength of opposing forces with Tywin.

That's right, of course. The Stannisites here excuse him for losing the most important battle thus far in GoT coz he was surprised by the enemy. Then they praise him for beating the Wlldlings and their super-general Mance by surprising him. Its nice to have it both ways. The jury is still out whether Stannis will win more battles than he loses. As far as his being a great or even good King. I doubt it. Lets see what GRRM thinks in the next two books. Somehow I don't see Stannis prevailiing. You remember him? The guy who murdered his brother, burned the old gods to put up a new one (cynically ofc), murdered Robert's bastard (didnt the Lannisters do that too?), and burned the captured Mance.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I enjoyed the beginning of the scene and i hated the ending of it. Seriously, staring into the flames but not showing anything? It is teleVISION, if i wanted my mind to do the job instead of the shows visuality, i read the books... ok, budget, yeah i know, but it was purely done.

I think what she showed him was what was happening North of the Wall. My guess is that much of season 3 will be him making preparations for some unknown trip, wrestling with whether to go north or fight for the crown, and they didn't want to open that up until they were ready to go in that direction. My guess is they'll concealing what he actually saw until he is ready to give the orders to his men, and explains why.

[unRobert]

Hell most of them ran. Of course one can't help but notice you left out the fact that he lost at KL with far superior numbers at land and sea and with the main strength of opposing forces with Tywin. So I'll assume you concede that point.

This confuses me. He was winning when he had the "far superior numbers" ( estimating his numbers, he probably had KL at 4-1 or 5-1, which would make for an impressive, but not awe-inspiring victory over a walled city and massive fortress). When the Tyrell-Lannister host shows up, I assume they probably had him out manned 3-1.

I think we're given the impression that Stannis is a good tactician (And I for one am hoping he will prove it, and put some Freys in a frozen lake...) but still a flawed leader. He inspires little, as his defeat at King's Landing showed us. He lost so suddenly at the arrival of a new host because his own men were very quick to betray.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

This confuses me. He was winning when he had the "far superior numbers" ( estimating his numbers, he probably had KL at 4-1 or 5-1, which would make for an impressive, but not awe-inspiring victory over a walled city and massive fortress). When the Tyrell-Lannister host shows up, I assume they probably had him out manned 3-1.

I think we're given the impression that Stannis is a good tactician (And I for one am hoping he will prove it, and put some Freys in a frozen lake...) but still a flawed leader. He inspires little, as his defeat at King's Landing showed us. He lost so suddenly at the arrival of a new host because his own men were very quick to betray.

The key was that the Lannisters/Tyrells attacked Stannis men in the rear unexpectedly, while they were assaulting the city and gates. Historically, that makes just about any army break, even if they still outnumber their foe. What happens is that the guys actually being attacked don't care about the numbers overall, they just know they're getting their asses kicked. So they break and run. Then other troops see them breaking and running, see an unexpected attack coming at them for which they are unprepared and ill-deployed (and whose full numbers they don't know), and they break. And so on. That's why well-timed flanking attacks generally are battle-winners if not detected.

[Harrad]

The key was that the Lannisters/Tyrells attacked Stannis men in the rear unexpectedly, while they were assaulting the city and gates. Historically, that makes just about any army break, even if they still outnumber their foe. What happens is that the guys actually being attacked don't care about the numbers overall, they just know they're getting their asses kicked. So they break and run. Then other troops see them breaking and running, see an unexpected attack coming at them for which they are unprepared and ill-deployed (and whose full numbers they don't know), and they break. And so on. That's why well-timed flanking attacks generally are battle-winners if not detected.

Exactly right. Good generals avoid putting themselves in a position where there are surprised by an attack in the rear, by scouting the enemy in one or many ways. Bad generals fling caution to the wind as if they were undefeatable. In the case where they are surprised, only superior morale and tactics may win the day. Stannis' army displayed none of that.

[kevinbgwrites]

I was upset with villain Stannis from season 2 but I think I understand why they are making him that way. Whats more powerful, a very grey character doing something likable or a rather black character doing the same? The directors have voiced he'd be a bad king etc. and I think thats just to make his transformation all the more powerful when he proves to be the only king who arrives at the wall.

[Harrad]

he proves to be the only king who arrives at the wall.

I wonder about that in the book. He is hardly doing it for selfless reasons. First he got his butt kicked out of the south, so it was his only option if he wanted to stay on the same continent. Then, he fought Mance because he was the only (weak) opponent in the field. Then he marched south for his own purposes. I expect he will beat the Freys, but whether Stannis will wither in the cold weather and then go whither, is all up to GRRM.

[Lord Wadsworth]

Stannis didn't throw caution to the wind. Tywin was busy with Robb's forces. There was no reason for him to think the majority of Lannister forces would suddenly be upon him. Along with that the Tyrells struck a deal with the Lannisters, a deal not many saw coming. They had no reason to love each other.

I don't see how Stannis being blind sided by two large enemy forces who weren't meant to be a factor in the battle makes him unintelligent and a bad general.

Fighting against the Wildings helped him to gain favor in the North. He also is gaining favor with the north by going to save Winterfell from the clutches of the Bolton Bastard.

He's trying to bring the Northmen to his cause as they no longer have a unified leader. Those who want revenge for the death of Ned, Robb and Cat would gather around Stannis because he's showing Kingly support. As in, he's the only one who's claimed Kinghood and is using his power to help the Wall.

So he helps the realm and helps his standing.

Someone said earlier that he has become Robert. That's false. Robert drank and whored himself into a stupor. I don't like that Stannis was so bewitched by the prospect of a son to abandon his honor and duty and sleep with Mel. I feel it was done better in the books. He's not suddenly a domestic abuser because he choked Mel. He's proving a point.

She said she's been in battles and knew a ton about them. So he proceeded to attack her. Asking her where her knowledge and god factored into that. He didn't go crazy and start beating Selyse like some drunk trailer trash.