[Book Spoilers] season 2 grade

[The Anti-Targ]

Argh! What's the context for grades relative to marks out of 10 / 100?

I think my 7/10, in my thinking, relates to a B- or C+ (5-6=C-/C, 6-7=C+/B-, 7-8 = B/B+, 8-9=A-/A, 9-10=A+).

On the ABC scale I give S1 an A-, S2 I can't decide whether my disappointments drop the season to a C+ or whether the good bits keep it at a B-. Either way a substantial qualitative drop from my prespective. Regardless of grade my one sentence comment to go along with the grade is "Must do better next year".

[King of the Road]

A+ for me. I love the books, but I think people need to be more open minded with the TV series. It's designed for entertainment, and it simply cannot have everything in it. The A is also well deserved if only for Blackwater, which has to be one of the best TV episodes of all time.

[The Last Reyne]

B-/C+. Blackwater was outstanding and Theon was excellent in his descent but I thought that some of the other storylines were weak. I was disappointed with Robb/Talisa story and the Jon/Qorin Halfhand was absolutely aweful. It was a complete butcher job and took away from the overall story. Last the HotU was a major disappointment.

[ckongo]

Your post covers a lot. I disagree that the dragons looked cool, mainly because they were the same size as season 1.

The writers were sloppy. That's why news can travel at light-speed and characters can be here and then there. And like you said, things just happen with little build up. You'd think these "writers" could have done a copy/paste/cut job without ruining it, but no. They had to make it their own and cause it to make little sense.

By comparison to season 1 and my desire for an adaption of the books rather than an inspiration I give it a D. The Blackwater episode boosted the rating a little.

[ckongo]

A+ for me. I love the books, but I think people need to be more open minded with the TV series. It's designed for entertainment, and it simply cannot have everything in it. The A is also well deserved if only for Blackwater, which has to be one of the best TV episodes of all time.

If you give something an A+ there shouldn't be any flaws really. I don't know why this keeps on having to be stated, but the complaints people have are far more based on unnecessarily changing things rather than just leaving parts out.

[mooksman]

A+ for me. I love the books, but I think people need to be more open minded with the TV series. It's designed for entertainment,

wait so what were the books designed for?

[mooksman]

it's not even so much about the changes being unnecessary. its that they are bad. they made the story lines a lot worse. the robb/talissa thing was really, really bad. if it wasn't based on asoiaf i would have been saying the same things - like what is this shit fantasy series? - and i certainly would have stopped watching.

the show has plot holes, stiff acting, etc etc. i get that not everything can be in there, that some changes had to be made, some characters adjusted. it's just that now it sucks!

arya didnt kill the guard! she literally didnt develop at all that whole season. she went through ZERO turmoil and limited conflict. she played games with jaqen. oh, some lannister guard knocked water off her shoulder and hit her upside the head, poor girl! i mean it's not just that she didnt kill the guard, it's that if she had it wouldnt have made sense because up to that point, she didnt experience any of the things that would lead her to desperation/muderous behavior. i think that change made her story a lot less interesting.

[Jayaris]

If you give something an A+ there shouldn't be any flaws really. I don't know why this keeps on having to be stated, but the complaints people have are far more based on unnecessarily changing things rather than just leaving parts out.

If you rate it compared to other TV shows you could give it an A+, but compared to Season 1 not really sure how you could give it that.

I'd give it a B.

I hope that aCoK will be remembered as the worst series and that going forward they will be able to improve with aSoS.

[Raksha the Demon]

Considering Season 2 only as a television miniseries and not a book adaption, I'd give it a B, thanks to the stellar performances of Peter Dinklage and Alfie Allen and the outstanding Blackwater episode (Jack Gleeson and Sophie Turner should also be mentioned). There was too much disjointed talking-and-not-doing; the characters of Jon Snow and (except for her last 10 minutes of screen time) Daenerys were wasted, the romance of Robb and Talisa was painful to watch, I don't think the writers and directors know what to do with Stannis. Too much gratuitous sex/porn; and too little of shirtless Gendry (would another two minutes have hurt?)...

Brownie points for good use of The Mighty Cheekbones and Pretty Blue Eyes of Iain Glen. (and the visual contrast of Daenerys and Xaro Xoan Whasisname, like a yappy little Maltese trailing a stately Mastiff) Lovely scenery of Iceland, too bad the story filmed there was not as compelling as the visuals. Theon's homecoming was well done in all respects.

As for considering Season 2 as a book adaption, I'll save that for another thread; suffice it to say that Season 1 was much, much better.

[Noeyecue]

I recorded Episodes 5 through 10 and watched them all in one sitting last night, and was pretty disappointed. The first half of Season Two started okay, and I particularly enjoyed Alfie Allen's performance as a returning Greyjoy Prodigal Son, especially that scene in which he struggled to decide whether to send the warning note to Robb or not.

However, like many others have said, the other characters suffered from a lack of screen time to build sufficient depth and audience empathy. Stannis in particular, was poorly treated by the screenwriters. In the books, I found him to be one of the more interesting and complex characters - the middle son, capable and dutiful, yet unloved; suddenly given the opportunity to fulfill his duty and achieve personal glory only to have it taken away at Blackwater, yet resilient enough to fight on. By glossing over his backstory, the show treated him just as another power-hungry claimant to the throne, making him much less sympathetic to non-readers.

Overall, I rate Season 2 a disappointing C (vs a solid A for Season 1) and hope that the Producers and Writers do not try to cram too much of SoS into Season 3.

[Lady of Long Lake]

B for season 1 and C for season 2.

The writing and acting were excellent for Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Luwin, Bran, Catelyn and Osha.

Arya's acting was A+++ and her storyline was great w/Gendry + Yoren + Tywin + Jacqen. But they diminished her overall by not showing how brave and fierce that child can be. They made her timid and frightened in many scenes and she does not mention being afraid often in her chapters. They gave her a personality reversal and made her a scaredy cat.

Jon's acting was excellent but they destroyed his character AND the entire Wall story. Craster was ridiculous. The dragonglass arrowhead find was changed for the bad. Halfhand was silly. No Ghost was ludicrous. They turned Jon into an oaf that no one would elect as the LC. Ygritte was the only ray of sunshine up North this season:(

Robb's acting was also excellent but he was destroyed as a character, as well. The Talisa story was weak and turned him into a dishonorable, horny fool.

Stannis was brilliantly written and played in the Blackwater episode. The rest of his season was mediocre. I don't care for Mel and find their scenes uncomfortable. She seems 1% a sorceress and 99% a prostitute. The shadowbaby was very well done but the sex scenes were hard to bear. As were the naked whores beating each other for Joffrey's pleasure. And Theon with the ship captain's daughter. And most of the brothel scenes.

Jaime was morphed into a psychopath this season. This will make his moral redemption with Brienne less believable.

Dany's changed story was interesting to me and her acting was better, especially in the Red Sea. I liked how they wrote her this season but the HOTU and Xaro were a little bizarre in their changes.

The Ironborn were difficult to watch but they are unlikable when I read them too.

[Masamune]

Season 1: A-

Season 2: C+

I should confess that I jumped onto the ASOIAF bandwagon after watching the first season of GOT. I've watched all the episodes beyond counting and when it originally finished I was in two minds whether to wait for next season or spoil myself and delve into GRRM's world of novels. I decided on the latter and haven't looked back since. Did reading the books sour my enjoyment of Season 2? Oh, without a doubt. That being said, it shouldn't make my criticism towards Season 2 any less valid than the next man.

Firstly, I agree with whoever said this felt like a cliffnotes version of ACOK .There are so many scenes that they completely skimmed over, which as a result made the whole thing feel rushed and poorly laid out. I can accept enforced changes due to budget and time constraints. For example, I can begrudgingly accept that the Harrenhall chapters needed to be streamlined and the CG Direwolves have little screentime. But what I can't stand are changes that arbitrarily change the structure of the plot and its characters for no good reason.

Here's my list (in no particular order) of issues both major and nitpicky:

* Jon/Qhorin Halfhand - They completed butchered Jon's arc, which was arguably one of ACOK's strong points. Jon has gone from an able young ranger and leadership material to a sulky dumbass who gets given the run-around by a savage girl and then becomes the butt of several pen0r jokes. So much for Qhorin Halfhand the legendary Ranger, as well. He was more like some crazy old coot than a badass of the Night's Watch.

* The Kinslayer - Again, another unnecessary and gratuitous deviation from the source material. The whole point about Jaime, which we learn later on, is that contrary to popular belief he DOES have his own twisted sense of honour. But now he brutally murders his cousin in cold blood, adding kinslayer to his list of crimes. Nevermind the fact it was completely unnecessary to do so.

* Robb/Talisa - Wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels. I don't even know where to begin. How about a vulnerable, attractive woman who wanders the battlefields of Westeros? Yeaaah.... she wouldn't be raped and killed at all. Oh, and how about Robb letting this random woman wander in on his war councils, where all his esteemed bannerman have to up and leave the moment she arrives. Not only that but Robb later decides he wants to make this damsel his bride because the poor idiot's in love and he wants to get back at mummy for upsetting him. Is this Game of Thrones or an Emily Giffin novel?

* Littlefinger - They've turned the character into a Snidely Whiplash villain who must be shoehorned into as many scenes as possible. Even when it means doing stupid acts like calling out Cersei or venturing into enemy camps. Also, is it me or has Aidan Gillen suddenly forgotten how to act? From his hammy delivery and messed up accent to his facial expressions, he's like a whole different character.

* Brienne of Tarth - More like The Mountain With Breasts, amirite? She looks and acts like some crazy psycho bitch instead of the naive, idealistic knight we all know. Remember how Brienne's first kill was a big deal to her in the books? Now she just butchers men before they've even took up arms.

* Weasel Soup - Even though I loved the chemistry between Charles Dance & Maisie Williams, the scenes started to drag on after while and did nothing to advance the plot. Harrenhall was supposed to be a defining moment in Arya's development as she went through hell and back and came of age. Instead, she spends most of Season 2 being Tywin's cosy little cupbearer and uses Jaqen to do all her dirty work for her.

* The Mountain - Oh dear Lord, why did they cast such a complete noodle to play the role of Ser Gregor? The man carries no presence whatsoever and his voice is downright cringeworthy. Conan Stevens won't be coming back from the sounds of it, so I'd nominate someone like Nathan Jones. Make it happen, HBO, otherwise the fight with the Red Viper is going to blow hard.

* Ros - I don't understand why this characters eats up so much screentime. I guess she worked as the go-to whore for character sexposition but even that was overplayed. Now it's hinted she'll play an even larger role? Her scene with Varys in S2 Ep10 felt like a lame attempt to force us into accepting her character.

* Shae - I don't know how people prefer TV Shae. I'll probably get shot for this but is it the pro-feminist stance towards all the female characters on this show that wins people over? They all have to be headstrong girlfriends, when that simply doesn't fly in GRRM's world. TV Shae's more like Tyrion's nagging housewife than his dirty secret. And Sibel Kekilli is possibly the weakest cast member on the show.

* Bronn - I know Bronn has something of a Chuck Norris-status within the fanbase but they really went too far this season. He's made Commander of the City Watch, he can read, he can sing! Oh, and to top it off he was the archer who set the Blackwater ablaze as well (and took time out to save Sandor's life). Is there anything he can't do!? He's supposed to be a common sellsword not the Six Million Dollar Man.

* No Shagga, son of Dolf - The Pycelle scene wasn't the same without him.

I could really go on but this rant needs to end sometime today.

So what did I enjoy about Season 2? Naturally, I thought the Blackwater episode was a glorious spectacle and almost made up for all the mediocrity that came before it... until we got to the final episode. I think aside from one or two niggles (Gregor, Asha), HBO's casting has been top-notch again. And on a whole, the acting remains above-average.

Where I was looking forward to Season 2, I have now trepidation towards Season 3. D&D & co need to remember what made the original series such a roaring success and stop writing this terrible fanfiction.

[King_Of_Winter]

A for season 1 and A- for season 2. I give the same ratings to the book as well (A for AGoT and A- for ACoK).

I admit, some of the changes didn't thrill me too much, with Robb's storyline being the main offender since I was really looking forward to him tearing up the west with his army up until marrying Jeyne but instead it was some half-assed romance story. However, I don't understand all the hate that season 2 is getting for it. I mean, it's not like they killed off Tyrion and decided to make Dany invade Westeros immediately, the storyline is still obviously that of ASoIaF, only relatively minor things have been altered and occasionally for the better. I did like the changes to Dany's storyline, whilst not great it was a lot more interesting than the lame storyline she has in the book.

I was very impressed with Blackwater, I was worried it was going to look shoddy and not have the epic sense of scale the battle has in the book. I think it is one of the finest hours of television I've seen, behind only Face Off in Breaking Bad and Middle Ground in The Wire.

Overall, the series continues to impress me, and I am really looking forward to season 3 which, if pulled off correctly, could be one of the best seasons of television ever.

[Patrick Durden]

Season 2 would be considered great if we hadn't had the fantastic first season. Seeing as how we did though, season 2 just didn't live up to expectations. Jon and Dany's parts come to mind. So boring. One is stuck in a desert, the other in a tundra and nothing really happens. Jon meets a redhead, cool. Dany gets her dragons stolen, then gets them back, cool. On the other hand there was a few bright spots. Arya's talks with Tywin and Robb meeting the nurse version of Jeyne Westerling. In the books we don't see much of Tywin, most of what we know of him is second hand but in the show we got to see how commanding he can be (thanks in part to the great actor). As for Roob and Jeyne, at first I was annoyed with having a romance shoved down my throat but then realized it's good to see first hand the relationship develop which explains why Robb decides to get married and put aside his promise to wed a Frey. In the book he does it because he was horny and didn't want to dishonor her which is really stupid on his part, in the show however he's a young guy who fell in love with a nice girl. Still a bad decision on his part but much more understandable.

Also they totally left Qhorin's influence on Jon Snow out of the show. They could have at least had a scene where Qhorin emphasizes how important it is that he does everything he needs to to survive and blend in as a wildling. Instead he just whispers a few words and then pushes him into the snow. Like I alluded to before, Dany's story could have been way better. Not only was it totally changed but there was zero mention of any prophecy involving a promised Targaryen.

Another bright side was Theon's story, the last second speech was pretty hilarious. Blackwater was a great episode too, obviously.

Season 1 : B+ Great but there wasn't enough fighting.

Season 2 : C+/B- Good but too many things were changed and not for the better.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Game of Thrones is a better book than A Clash of Kings.

Season 2 was awesome, imo. For every scene that was worse than in the books (Qhorin and Jon, I'm looking at you), there was a replacement scene that was better than the books. Quite simply, ACoK, is a fascinating sprawling book where nothing particularly exciting happens. And whilst Blackwater was the best bit of ACoK, it was, dare I say it, a little better still in the tv series.

Overall I'd give the season an A-. Similar to what I'd give for Season 1 although I'm in the process of rewatching it atm.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I watched the show before I read the books, so when I watched Season 2 the first time, I found it to be better than Season 1.

I find that reading the books actually killed my appreciation of the series a little bit. I'm convinced most of the changes in Season 2 were due to budget and time constraints, so I'm pretty confident that they won't change much for Season 3 and 4 since they have more time to tell the story. I would give both seasons probably an 8.5 or 9 out of 10. Regardless of how you feel about it as an adaptation, you can't deny that it's an excellent TV show.

[boojam]

Season 1: A-

* Brienne of Tarth - More like The Mountain With Breasts, amirite? She looks and acts like some crazy psycho bitch instead of the naive, idealistic knight we all know. Remember how Brienne's first kill was a big deal to her in the books? Now she just butchers men before they've even took up arms.

* Weasel Soup - Even though I loved the chemistry between Charles Dance & Maisie Williams, the scenes started to drag on after while and did nothing to advance the plot. Harrenhall was supposed to be a defining moment in Arya's development as she went through hell and back and came of age. Instead, she spends most of Season 2 being Tywin's cosy little cupbearer and uses Jaqen to do all her dirty work for her.

* The Mountain - Oh dear Lord, why did they cast such a complete noodle to play the role of Ser Gregor? The man carries no presence whatsoever and his voice is downright cringeworthy. Conan Stevens won't be coming back from the sounds of it, so I'd nominate someone like Nathan Jones. Make it happen, HBO, otherwise the fight with the Red Viper is going to blow hard.

First don't forget, as has been noted an uncountable number of times, a big book story into 10 one hour episodes, how would you like that dumped into your lap?

* Brienne of Tarth - I loved this change. Across the 4 novels with her, George is inconsistent a little in character a whole lot in appearance.

Making her as full blown a dangerous knight as Jamie struck me as a perfect contradistinction , unexpected.

* Weasel Soup... alas, I had figured this one out with the announcement of season 2.

With a dedicated episode 9 , no way to fit this story into the episodes left.

So I was quite surprised with the Tywin - Arya game of wits sort of trumped even George. We begin to see just how smart Arya or will grow to be. Did not drag for me, could have used more.

* The Mountain -. Hey blame Peter Jackson ... Conan Stevens , I am sure picked up a bigger paycheck for the Hobbit.

We might still see him back! Fingers crossed.

[naik2902]

why they pushed it so hard.........they skipped lot of important scenes...........house of undying prophecies and qarth are all screwed, arya and weasel soup drama skipped, ..........they shuld have added 2 more episode or finale shuld have made 2 hrs long.

why HBO is pushing it so harder. they shuld slow down.......its lot of time left for TWOW and ADOS to come.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I give it a B+. Television is television and books are books. There is no way for them to follow the books exactly. I understand the changes to Dany's story b/c in the book her story is more intellectual and TV demands action. So those changes didn't bother me b/c they didn't really change the substance of the story.

After reading ASoS, the one change that makes me give this season a B rather than an A has been Arya's storyline. They have really messed it up and by having her serve Tywin rather than Bolton - it's going to take away from some of the impact of the RW. However, the RW is so devastating maybe that won't matter as much and maybe that's what they are banking on. However, Arya's journey and all those elements and her just missing them - it all adds so much to her story.

I do wish they had developed Halfhand a little bit further, but even I understood what he was doing in those episodes with Jon and I hadn't read the books at the time - so I think those changes weren't that big of a deal.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Season 1: A-

Season 2: C+

I should confess that I jumped onto the ASOIAF bandwagon after watching the first season of GOT. I've watched all the episodes beyond counting and when it originally finished I was in two minds whether to wait for next season or spoil myself and delve into GRRM's world of novels. I decided on the latter and haven't looked back since. Did reading the books sour my enjoyment of Season 2? Oh, without a doubt. That being said, it shouldn't make my criticism towards Season 2 any less valid than the next man.

Firstly, I agree with whoever said this felt like a cliffnotes version of ACOK .There are so many scenes that they completely skimmed over, which as a result made the whole thing feel rushed and poorly laid out. I can accept enforced changes due to budget and time constraints. For example, I can begrudgingly accept that the Harrenhall chapters needed to be streamlined and the CG Direwolves have little screentime. But what I can't stand are changes that arbitrarily change the structure of the plot and its characters for no good reason.

Here's my list (in no particular order) of issues both major and nitpicky:

* Jon/Qhorin Halfhand - They completed butchered Jon's arc, which was arguably one of ACOK's strong points. Jon has gone from an able young ranger and leadership material to a sulky dumbass who gets given the run-around by a savage girl and then becomes the butt of several pen0r jokes. So much for Qhorin Halfhand the legendary Ranger, as well. He was more like some crazy old coot than a badass of the Night's Watch.

* The Kinslayer - Again, another unnecessary and gratuitous deviation from the source material. The whole point about Jaime, which we learn later on, is that contrary to popular belief he DOES have his own twisted sense of honour. But now he brutally murders his cousin in cold blood, adding kinslayer to his list of crimes. Nevermind the fact it was completely unnecessary to do so.

* Robb/Talisa - Wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels. I don't even know where to begin. How about a vulnerable, attractive woman who wanders the battlefields of Westeros? Yeaaah.... she wouldn't be raped and killed at all. Oh, and how about Robb letting this random woman wander in on his war councils, where all his esteemed bannerman have to up and leave the moment she arrives. Not only that but Robb later decides he wants to make this damsel his bride because the poor idiot's in love and he wants to get back at mummy for upsetting him. Is this Game of Thrones or an Emily Giffin novel?

* Littlefinger - They've turned the character into a Snidely Whiplash villain who must be shoehorned into as many scenes as possible. Even when it means doing stupid acts like calling out Cersei or venturing into enemy camps. Also, is it me or has Aidan Gillen suddenly forgotten how to act? From his hammy delivery and messed up accent to his facial expressions, he's like a whole different character.

* Brienne of Tarth - More like The Mountain With Breasts, amirite? She looks and acts like some crazy psycho bitch instead of the naive, idealistic knight we all know. Remember how Brienne's first kill was a big deal to her in the books? Now she just butchers men before they've even took up arms.

* Weasel Soup - Even though I loved the chemistry between Charles Dance & Maisie Williams, the scenes started to drag on after while and did nothing to advance the plot. Harrenhall was supposed to be a defining moment in Arya's development as she went through hell and back and came of age. Instead, she spends most of Season 2 being Tywin's cosy little cupbearer and uses Jaqen to do all her dirty work for her.

* The Mountain - Oh dear Lord, why did they cast such a complete noodle to play the role of Ser Gregor? The man carries no presence whatsoever and his voice is downright cringeworthy. Conan Stevens won't be coming back from the sounds of it, so I'd nominate someone like Nathan Jones. Make it happen, HBO, otherwise the fight with the Red Viper is going to blow hard.

* Ros - I don't understand why this characters eats up so much screentime. I guess she worked as the go-to whore for character sexposition but even that was overplayed. Now it's hinted she'll play an even larger role? Her scene with Varys in S2 Ep10 felt like a lame attempt to force us into accepting her character.

* Shae - I don't know how people prefer TV Shae. I'll probably get shot for this but is it the pro-feminist stance towards all the female characters on this show that wins people over? They all have to be headstrong girlfriends, when that simply doesn't fly in GRRM's world. TV Shae's more like Tyrion's nagging housewife than his dirty secret. And Sibel Kekilli is possibly the weakest cast member on the show.

* Bronn - I know Bronn has something of a Chuck Norris-status within the fanbase but they really went too far this season. He's made Commander of the City Watch, he can read, he can sing! Oh, and to top it off he was the archer who set the Blackwater ablaze as well (and took time out to save Sandor's life). Is there anything he can't do!? He's supposed to be a common sellsword not the Six Million Dollar Man.

* No Shagga, son of Dolf - The Pycelle scene wasn't the same without him.

I could really go on but this rant needs to end sometime today.

So what did I enjoy about Season 2? Naturally, I thought the Blackwater episode was a glorious spectacle and almost made up for all the mediocrity that came before it... until we got to the final episode. I think aside from one or two niggles (Gregor, Asha), HBO's casting has been top-notch again. And on a whole, the acting remains above-average.

Where I was looking forward to Season 2, I have now trepidation towards Season 3. D&D & co need to remember what made the original series such a roaring success and stop writing this terrible fanfiction.

Your introductory paragraph here applies to me 100% as well. I agree with everything else you wrote so much that I wont even bother reading the other 8 pages of responses. You nailed it. My only small objection is to Littlefinger's acting; I just didn't notice it. I hate that the Mountain in season one is like a 6'3'' mass of a man, while season two's is a 6'10'' push-over.

Personally I wont grant a single excuse for the show's shortcomings. Book 1 being 1 season on TV made perfect sence, however, book 2 and book 3 should be 2 a piece. And I figure 3 seasons between books 4 and 5 (since books 4 and 5 are basically 1 giant book anyway.)

In the preview for season 3 D&D even say that season 3 is the one they had been most looking forward to, and it's clear that they rushed to get there. I get that they have creative liberty and that, as GRRM has said, they could have aliens come down from space and take the Iron Throne if they so wanted. But instead of taking creative liberty, it seems they have take uncreative liberties and short cuts instead.