Jon Lives and Is Reborn

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

There is a difference between giving the sword to your brother and giving it to a green boy you barely know.

I still think it's a pointless complaint. It's not like Jon could ever pass it along to anyone. At the Wall, it ceases to have any heirloom value. Jeor was apparently keeping it locked up in a closet somewhere, is that where you'd prefer it to be?

I'd have preferred it if he had sent it back to his family since he wasn't using it but clearly Our Hero ™ needed a fantasy sword.

As Apple Martini stated, his sister felt the sword belonged to him, and was his to do with as he pleases. Considering Mormont is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, a title which meant forsaking his family ties, it makes perfect sense that he would pass the sword to the 'green boy' he has decided to groom as the next Lord Commander. At the Wall it can also become a heirloom passed down through Mormont's new 'family'.

But from the part I quoted that Longclaw= Lightbringer, that Dragons are frozen into the Wall, that dragons will emerge via blowing the horn of Joramun, and the assumption that dragons are the greatest weapon against Winter-- I don't think there's much evidence to support all of these assertions. I have a couple of issues with all of these points, but I suppose to tackle one, is there anything to suggest that the CotF would have placed enchanted dragons into the Wall? It seems that fire magic is notably absent from the CotF repertoire, so I tend to think this might be a little unlikely.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so I respect yours. As a believer in the possibility of dragons being frozen in/beneath the Wall, I also believe that the CotF would not be associated with fire magic, since I don't believe the dragons frozen in the wall will breathe fire.

There's no point in including the evidence that I feel supports this theory. People see different things when they read, and I'm quite sure you would see something totally different in my 'evidence'. :)

ETA: I do not believe that Longclaw=Lightbringer...exactly. I believe that any Valyirian sword has the potential to be reborn as Lightbringer, but I could be wrong. I'm actually pretty sure I'm wrong about a lot of things, but it's fun to hope and theorize.

[theHoodedBard]

OK, good response and it is rare to bring up a few possibilities that havent been brought up before.

I doubt someone hasnt presented alternative theories about Longclaw..... Certainly its strange that the sisters swords disappeared in history, they should have been sacred relics. And of course Lightbringer is somewhere. Perhaps Stannis will really have it on the third try or Jon will put it in the fire for the third time. If Jon is Azor i think its highly likely longclaw is LB< Dark Sister or something of the like.

As far as dragons in the wall, people get so caught up in "something cant happen or be true because martin hasnt given us evidence " Holy kraken, this site has uncovered every little secret and possibility, NO DOUBT martin has presented this as a major issue Tolkien and others didnt have.

What we know. Dragons are a MASSIVE weapon against Wights and the Others. Wall was built with Ice and Magic. I believe by COTF correct? The wall was built to keep out the Others specifically FACT. this means they were expected to return. We know , or it is likely the Horn (either one Mance found or cracked one found by Ghost with dragon glass though more unlikely) can bring down the wall. Why would this exist? Why would the wall coming down slow the march of the Others and their Wight Army????? Well, to get through theyd likely need to use a gate, Bringing down the wall when the battle is clearly lost will be a great obstacle that would allow the watch to flee and ....well a million possibilities at that point. There are weapons against the others used in mass in first war with others. where are they, in tiny bundles of dragon glass? please.

Martins best kept secret in the books is the true nature of the Others and the COming War. It is the true arc of the entire story, Ice vs Fire, and is the one thing he is leaving us clueless about. You and I have no idea what magic is in the wall, what things are hidden, how many ways dragons can be concealed.

But in the end , Mel looks for Azor in Fire, all she sees is Snow. Jon is Somehow a bastard in posession of a Valyrian Greatsword kept on an island near the wall for centuries. The Others are coming and the NIghts watch will LOSE Miserably. Bringing down the wall is a good Strategic War move at this point. The wall is more than Ice and the COTF planned for this as their legacy, think they only built a wall and destroyed their vast supplies of dragonglass?????

I never said jon is dead in beginning, i said attempted murder clearly...... One can be reborn in many ways.

[theHoodedBard]

@ lady Wolfsbane - im definitely sure I am wrong about a lot of things.

I dont believe anything really when it comes to AOIAF, takes away from mystery for me and sets story up to disappoint when it should do anything but.

I just like to present new theories and let this board do what it does best, pick em apart and help me understand my own thoughts on the series better. Your points have all been solid

[butterbumps!]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so I respect yours. As a believer in the possibility of dragons being frozen in/beneath the Wall, I also believe that the CotF would not be associated with fire magic, since I don't believe the dragons frozen in the wall will breathe fire.

There's no point in including the evidence that I feel supports this theory. People see different things when they read, and I'm quite sure you would see something totally different in my 'evidence'. :)

Well, I can think of a bit of suggestion (if not "evidence") that might support the idea of dragons in the Wall. In one of Sam's POV's he's thinking about Queen Alysanne's visit to the Wall and wonders about her investment in coming, and whether she might have left dragons eggs there. I'm really quite interested in finding out precisely why Alysanne was so fixated on the Night's Watch, and I think this is really suspect. I don't summarily dismiss the idea that dragons are at the Wall in some form, but the quote I was responding to had suggested that the CotF might have put dragons into the Wall directly, which I'd found somewhat unlikely given their apparent lack of fire magic.

I mean, to be sure, all of this magic stuff is highly speculative so "evidence" isn't a precisely correct way for me to have stated that. But I do think there are themes and suggestions that lead toward stronger hypotheses than others, and I just wanted to draw out some support for why some of the conclusions I'd quoted were drawn. I suppose, for example, how could Longclaw be Lightbringer, logically speaking? I'm not challenging it, but wondering what leads supporters of this idea to that conclusion? Does the premise start with the a belief in Azor Ahai as a real person, having lived in Essos and defeating a great darkness, then somehow the Mormonts gaining possession of the sword? Or does it start from the idea that the Last Hero wielded Lightbringer, and gave this notable sword to the Mormont family for good service later on? Or is the idea that any sword in the right hands could become Lightbringer, given the proper tempering or something? So I was just wondering about some of the premises that led to some of the ideas, is all. :cool4:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

@ lady Wolfsbane - im definitely sure I am wrong about a lot of things.

I dont believe anything really when it comes to AOIAF, takes away from mystery for me and sets story up to disappoint when it should do anything but.

I just like to present new theories and let this board do what it does best, pick em apart and help me understand my own thoughts on the series better. Your points have all been solid

The only issue I have with my own theory is, "Why would there be Ice Dragons in the wall instead of regular Dragons?"

It would make more sense for the CotF/Bran the Builder to place fire breathing dragons in the wall to combat the Others. I may need to rethink some things. :bang:

I believe there's something in/beneath that freaking wall!!! And an Ice Dragon will make an appearance...maybe they fight for the Others? :o

[theHoodedBard]

ht lightbringer idea comes from Jon being Azor theory. He would need the sword likely. Perhaps it could be any sword. If lightbringer was necessary for the Coming war, it would have been hidden in plain sight perhaps, though risy. SO put it on bear island in the far corner of Westeros but near the Wall.

AND WHAT IS WITH SINCE COTF DIDNT HAVE FIRE MAGIC MEANS THEY NEVER WARGED A DRAGON OR ANYTHING> second, i dont have CHICKEN MAGIC but i can get some chicken eggs.

The COtF knew the war would return. They would have wanted to equip the fiture with weapons to defend themselves likely. Its at least very possible. Its easy to picture a cache of dragon eggs in the wall, but what purpose would they serve without Martins rumored 5 year jump that seems scratched. So the dragons would need to be in some state of hibernation , or deep deep beneath the wall...... living in the heat of the earth, perhaps the true reason for size of wall....... and it is believed bran released a dragon ( snake with wings in sky breathing a streak of fire) in some circles... all of these are possiblities

[theHoodedBard]

Possible on ice dragons with Others. I am big believer Others are a very intelligent Race of beings driven by far more than Desire to detroy life and all that is good.

I think its ridiculous to believe with all the duality in ASOIAF that the others are like SAURON

The dragons in my theory need to be of fire, a weapon , the Great Weapon

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword.

[butterbumps!]

I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword.

Or- God willing- a dragon.

[a free shadow]

Hmmm...Jonerys Reborn and Daenerys Stormborn :D

Imagine Jon's rebirth happens at the time of a storm too. Targaryen Stormborns will take over the world! :lol:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or- God willing- a dragon.

I can see the thinking behind it being dragons, as much as the idea is distasteful to me (I think it completely undermines the entire idea of balance if Fire overcomes Ice, and vice versa). What I am reasonably sure of though is that whatever it is, it is not a sword.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword.

:idea:

This is why I have yet to respond to Butterbumps...I'm having serious lightbulb moments over here...HAHA!

[theHoodedBard]

""I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword. "

Why, how is that possible unless you dont believe original story of sword right?????

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

""I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword. "

Why, how is that possible unless you dont believe original story of sword right?????

You can still believe the original story, but also that the story has been changed through re-telling.

(Long post coming soon.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

""I'm just tossing this out there, again, but I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword. "

Why, how is that possible unless you dont believe original story of sword right?????

I think it's symbolic. I believe that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch.

"I am the sword in the darkness ... the light that brings the dawn ..."

I have a post in the thread about fighting the Others that kind of discusses this.

I think the entire myth has been bungled and had its actual meanings completely turned around. I don't think it's meant to be read literally.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Possible on ice dragons with Others. I am big believer Others are a very intelligent Race of beings driven by far more than Desire to detroy life and all that is good.

I think its ridiculous to believe with all the duality in ASOIAF that the others are like SAURON

The dragons in my theory need to be of fire, a weapon , the Great Weapon

A weapon...made of living fire...the Red Sword of Heroes...

[l3ol3o]

Here is my theory:

Jon will warg into Ghost like most people think. I think that Mel will realize that she made a mistake about AA and admit this to Stanis. I think she will come to realize that Jon is AA and sadly I think Stannis will have to sacrafice himself to bring back Jon. Maybe the truth of Jon's parents are revealed at this point or atleast Robbs will and Jon will become King of the North/AA.

I also think that at some point Dany will make it to Westeroes and realize that she isn't loved as much as she thought she was. By this time the others should be raising hell in the North and a foreign Queen with Dragons bringing a slave/Dothraki army probably won't be very welcome. Dany has wanted to be loved to whole series and I think this will drive her North to fight the others. She probably figures if she saves Westeros from the Others the small folk will like her. When she gets to the North she will learn who Jon really is. I also think the two will fall in love. Then I think Danny will allow Jon to plunge a sword through her heart and sacrafice herself becoming Jon's Nissa Nissa to forge lightbringer which will allow him to fight the Others.

[theHoodedBard]

ok , look forward to longer post, both of you , thanks exactly why i post this stuff, big believer martin intentionally misleads us with accounts of history, he even does with accounts of present, i like your theories on lightbringer

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think it's symbolic. I believe that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch. "I am the sword in the darkness ... the light that brings the dawn ..." Go back and read my earlier post in this thread about the obsidian and what it means. That might help explain it better. I think the entire myth has been bungled and had its actual meanings completely turned around. I don't think it's meant to be read literally.

I have always believed that the vows of the Night's Watch came from the ancient stories. I also believe that the AA/Last Hero stories are the same, but told differently. It could be that Lightbringer in the AA legend and dragonsteel in the Last Hero legend, both refer to dragons. It's possible...I guess...

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Count me in among the ones who think Lightbringer wont be a literal sword but a metaphorical one like the Night's watch, and same goes for Nissa Nissa, I dont think it will be necessary to stab someone through the heart with a sword, it will be another kind of "sacrifice".

Also, no more dragons for me, if there is an Ice dragon, again, it will be a metaphorical one (Jon)