Jon Lives and Is Reborn

[Faint]

My issue with Lightbringer being the Night's Watch is that, for one, the Night's Watch has been completely decimated and is likely to be further decimated even before the Other's come, and two, there is no way Jon is going to remain a member of the Night's Watch, even provided he wanted to do so.

[Grail King]

I think it's symbolic. I believe that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch.

"I am the sword in the darkness ... the light that brings the dawn ..."

Go back and read my earlier post in this thread about the obsidian and what it means. That might help explain it better.

I think the entire myth has been bungled and had its actual meanings completely turned around. I don't think it's meant to be read literally.

This^^^^^ and Old Nan states that the watch has to be true.

If it's not the Watch then I think the answer is either in the crypts of WF or in the reforging of ICE.

[Grail King]

My issue with Lightbringer being the Night's Watch is that, for one, the Night's Watch has been completely decimated and is likely to be further decimated even before the Other's come, and two, there is no way Jon is going to remain a member of the Night's Watch, even provided he wanted to do so.

I think he would, his vows are a part of him, plus he has wildlings and more.

[butterbumps!]

I can see the thinking behind it being dragons, as much as the idea is distasteful to me (I think it completely undermines the entire idea of balance if Fire overcomes Ice, and vice versa). What I am reasonably sure of though is that whatever it is, it is not a sword.

So I think that's exactly why I don't think dragons will be "Lightbringer," but maybe it's just more accurate for me to say that the imbalance is why I don't think dragons are the answer to the Others or ultimate victory. Though this is not necessarily something I subscribe to, if taking the myth literally, Azor Ahai could have been solely a champion of fire, and the "great darkness" he conquered could have been defeating the Ghiscari by taming a bloody dragon and founding Valyria for all we know. Maybe for the Essosi myth Lightbringer truly does imply pure fire. But then that still gets to AppleMartini's point that absolute victory by fire is not much of a balance restorative, and by extension, I don't think I can hold much stock in AAR's being a heroic figure, or at least, the hero who restores balance in the world. So my thought is that if Lightbringer = dragons or another vessel of fire, then its wielder is likely not the "hero" who solves this mess.

My issue with Lightbringer being the Night's Watch is that, for one, the Night's Watch has been completely decimated and is likely to be further decimated even before the Other's come, and two, there is no way Jon is going to remain a member of the Night's Watch, even provided he wanted to do so.

Well, the Last Hero set out with a few dogs, horses and 12 other men, which some of us have toyed with the possibility that this was the founding of the NW. I'm not 100% sure that Jon is "The Last Hero Reborn" (I could see this being Bran), but I think there's a chance that the NW could regain its initial purpose through some "tempering" and cleansing to bring it back to what it was. I could see Jon doing something to this effect- figuring out who and what they're fighting, creating a kind of elite ops of his most "true" members, etc.

[theHoodedBard]

Hasnt Ice been reforged into Oathkeeper????? anyone really think it will be reforged again?

And if the watch is LIghtbringer, then it is one useless weapon, will all the armies of the world take the oath next book? doubtful

No more Dragons????? Absolutely more dragons....... From the Shadow beyond ashai, from the Crypts of winterfell, from beneath the wall, and hidden in oldtown...... Dragons are Fire, some will die, but they will decimate the armies of Wights ........ and Cripple the Others war machine..... SO IF YOU THINK THE WATCH is Lightbring, u should buy into Dragons in the Ice or Beneath the wall

[Grail King]

Hasnt Ice been reforged into Oathkeeper????? anyone really think it will be reforged again?

And if the watch is LIghtbringer, then it is one useless weapon, will all the armies of the world take the oath next book? doubtful

No more Dragons????? Absolutely more dragons....... From the Shadow beyond ashai, from the Crypts of winterfell, from beneath the wall, and hidden in oldtown...... Dragons are Fire, some will die, but they will decimate the armies of Wights ........ and Cripple the Others war machine..... SO IF YOU THINK THE WATCH is Lightbring, u should buy into Dragons in the Ice or Beneath the wall

Per the master armorer in KL, Ice wanted to keep it's shape and Valerian steel keeps it's memory so yes if you combined oath keeper and widow's wail Ice will be reborn.

Just need the right smithy : calling Dr. Gendry stat!

[StarkSupporter]

I'm not sure about Lightbring being a literal sword anymore. I feel that there definitely was a real Lightbringer, but as others have said the NW vow makes mention of sword and a light.

"I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

To me I see this as evidence that perhaps AA did found the NW and now the NW is meant to be Lightbringer. I do also believe that "Dragon Steel" is Valeryian Steel(sp?) So Jon will have a sword capable of defeating Others. Also as someone said earlier I like the idea of the NW going through a little house cleaning so to say and coming back stronger.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

So I think that's exactly why I don't think dragons will be "Lightbringer," but maybe it's just more accurate for me to say that the imbalance is why I don't think dragons are the answer to the Others or ultimate victory. Though this is not necessarily something I subscribe to, if taking the myth literally, Azor Ahai could have been solely a champion of fire, and the "great darkness" he conquered could have been defeating the Ghiscari by taming a bloody dragon and founding Valyria for all we know. Maybe for the Essosi myth Lightbringer truly does imply pure fire. But then that still gets to AppleMartini's point that absolute victory by fire is not much of a balance restorative, and by extension, I don't think I can hold much stock in AAR's being a heroic figure, or at least, the hero who restores balance in the world. So my thought is that if Lightbringer = dragons or another vessel of fire, then its wielder is likely not the "hero" who solves this mess.

Well, the Last Hero set out with a few dogs, horses and 12 other men, which some of us have toyed with the possibility that this was the founding of the NW. I'm not 100% sure that Jon is "The Last Hero Reborn" (I could see this being Bran), but I think there's a chance that the NW could regain its initial purpose through some "tempering" and cleansing to bring it back to what it was. I could see Jon doing something to this effect- figuring out who and what they're fighting, creating a kind of elite ops of his most "true" members, etc.

Could it be that the Night's Watch and dragons combined equal Lightbringer?

The dragons/Night's Watch being used as a weapon by Jon wouldn't create an imbalance, IMO. It seems to me that the Night's Watch fighting the Others alone would be imbalanced. I also view the AA myth as being one version of the "Hero Character" in the series, meaning the "Hero Character" wouldn't solely be a champion of fire.

As far as Bran being The Last Hero, I have tried to see this, but I just can't. If some of you have toyed with the idea of The Last Hero founding the Night's Watch, it just does more to support the theory that The Last Hero reborn(TLHR) will be Jon, IMO. Again, I think AAR/TLHR are the same, so that is the idea behind my reasoning.

*Still planning to respond to your other post. :)

I'm not sure about Lightbring being a literal sword anymore. I feel that there definitely was a real Lightbringer, but as others have said the NW vow makes mention of sword and a light.

"I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

To me I see this as evidence that perhaps AA did found the NW and now the NW is meant to be Lightbringer. I do also believe that "Dragon Steel" is Valeryian Steel(sp?) So Jon will have a sword capable of defeating Others. Also as someone said earlier I like the idea of the NW going through a little house cleaning so to say and coming back stronger.

I originally thought that "Dragon Steel" was Valyrian Steel, but I'm no longer taking everything literally, which opens more doors. ^_^

I also turned away from this once I realized that Valyrian Steel does not seem to affect the wights, so maybe it won't affect the Others. :unsure:

[theHoodedBard]

Lady Wolfsbane, you are an enlightened one and our separate paths seem to be leading to a new place.

So if Lightbringer is symbolic and the Nights watch oath has real meaning behind each vow, and we need dragons........

"we are the horn that wakes the sleepers"

best evidence yet for the horn bringing down the wall and waking the "sleeping" dragons.... eggs dont work with the timeline, so perhaps we have something here

justsaying

[nothatso]

I think he would, his vows are a part of him

I have to disagree. His vows aren't part of him, his duty is. He's had sex, intervened in the politics of the realm, and tried to march on Winterfell with his own personal army. He justifies these things in his head by saying it's all done for the good of the watch, but I have serious doubts of that being his actual motivation. He tries to remind himself of his vows whenever he thinks of family or sees a pretty girl. To me this says he isn't convinced of them, if he were he wouldn't need to remind himself. What is more important to him is defending the realm. He doesn't need to be a member of the watch to do that.

[Budj]

I'm not convinced Jon will stay in the NW myself. I really would be surprised if he does. I think he goes to WF and figures out his shit and the wildlings are the nucleus of his expanding army.

I don't think the NW will be involved in the end game of the series unless the "re-forging" has something to do with Jon being aware of his King claim...owning it....and changing the NW policy (as commander and king) of not interfering with realm politics in order to bring order to the realm and mass his forces for the big battle...whatever it is.

[Budj]

Sorry for posting twice in a row, but his whole purpose in the NW as far as the story is concerned could have been to gain loyalty from a large population of people (loyal NW members as well) to him and start his war to snuff all the power hungry fires in the realm. I make a distinction between Jon and the others because he isn't power hungry. This was proven when he turned down Winterfell/Val and earlier when he didn't want to lead the NW, but did so out of duty.

People may hate it because it is predictable, but Jon almost always does the right thing (WWNSD)...and yes....I have a man-crush on him.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Could it be that the Night's Watch and dragons combined equal Lightbringer?

The dragons/Night's Watch being used as a weapon by Jon wouldn't create an imbalance, IMO. It seems to me that the Night's Watch fighting the Others alone would be imbalanced. I also view the AA myth as being one version of the "Hero Character" in the series, meaning the "Hero Character" wouldn't solely be a champion of fire.

As far as Bran being The Last Hero, I have tried to see this, but I just can't. If some of you have toyed with the idea of The Last Hero founding the Night's Watch, it just does more to support the theory that The Last Hero reborn(TLHR) will be Jon, IMO. Again, I think AAR/TLHR are the same, so that is the idea behind my reasoning.

*Still planning to respond to your other post. :)

I originally thought that "Dragon Steel" was Valyrian Steel, but I'm no longer taking everything literally, which opens more doors. ^_^

I also turned away from this once I realized that Valyrian Steel does not seem to affect the wights, so maybe it won't affect the Others. :unsure:

Dragon glass doesn't affect the wights either

[theHoodedBard]

Dragon glass for the others, dragons for the wights

[butterbumps!]

Could it be that the Night's Watch and dragons combined equal Lightbringer?

The dragons/Night's Watch being used as a weapon by Jon wouldn't create an imbalance, IMO. It seems to me that the Night's Watch fighting the Others alone would be imbalanced. I also view the AA myth as being one version of the "Hero Character" in the series, meaning the "Hero Character" wouldn't solely be a champion of fire.

As far as Bran being The Last Hero, I have tried to see this, but I just can't. If some of you have toyed with the idea of The Last Hero founding the Night's Watch, it just does more to support the theory that The Last Hero reborn(TLHR) will be Jon, IMO. Again, I think AAR/TLHR are the same, so that is the idea behind my reasoning.

*Still planning to respond to your other post. :)

Hmm...why do you think that the Night's Watch alone would be an imbalance?

As for the Bran being the Last Hero- I'm not sure I believe he is exactly, but I was pointing to the parallels between Bran's journey and the Last Hero's, which seem more closely aligned at present than Jon's.

Just to put it out there, while I do favor the NW= "Lightbringer" theory (which comes from the premise that the Last Hero was carried into Essosi myth as Azor Ahai and a literal sword), I prefer the idea of Dawn being the sword used by the Last Hero. I really think that "dragonsteel" = meteoric steel, which is what Dawn was made from, but I'm not sure if I'm fully on board with Lightbringer itself being a literal sword yet. I'm not going to categorically reject the idea of dragons being in the Wall or otherwise playing a role in the long night. But the reason I haven't liked this idea is because we have been given a bit of information about the Last Hero, and "dragonsteel" was mentioned as a weapon, but not dragons. I tend to think that dragons would be a huge detail to miss if smaller weapons like dragonsteel/ glass were noted.

But on the subject of Dawn, I have a few unresolved issues getting on board with this sword specifically being the Last Hero's. Although the Daynes are among the oldest families derived from the First Men, their House is quite far South, so I'm unsure what their connection would be to the North. They founded their House at the site of a "fallen star" 10,000 years ago (according to Darkstar), and I think their sword is almost as old, being made from that material. So I think this falls into most interpretations of the timeline to intersect with the Long Night. So if Dawn was used by the Last Hero in the Long Night, I think it would stand to reason that a Dayne is either the Last Hero (which goes against what we've been told) OR that a Dayne lent this sword to the LH. I do suspect that there might be something yet unrevealed connecting the Starks and the Daynes. Given that both are First Men families and presumably part of the weirwood network, it's plausible to me that some kind of communication might have brought the Daynes up North, or other sort of CotF interaction. It's a lot of speculation, but I think Dawn might be the most plausible sword the Last Hero to have wielded, though I'm uncertain that I believe it's also Lightbringer.

Also, there's a passage that describes Azor Ahai fighting a great beast, that melts and smokes as it dies. The description of the beast seems similar to a dragon, but the smoking and melting has similarities to the way White Walkers die. I'm not sure what it points to yet, but I think it's interesting.

[theHoodedBard]

Again, the big point is Martin has kept all the secrets of the stories tru Arc, that of the others and their next coming

In the opening prologue they are mythical intelligent organized beings with shimmering armor or skin . they seem more alien or homo, than monster

Stop looking for clues to figure out these answers, there arent may, and the important ones, well this website has kept martin from putting them in the books

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In the opening prologue they are mythical intelligent organized beings with shimmering armor or skin . they seem more alien or homo, than monster

:shocked:

Stop looking for clues to figure out these answers, there arent may, and the important ones, well this website has kept martin from putting them in the books

I'll look for clues wherever I damn well please, thanks. Are you suggesting that GRRM would change something in the books just because people have figured it out? Because if you are, know that it isn't true and GRRM has said that he doesn't read fansites. Any author who'd change something for no other reason than because someone figured it out early is a hack. GRRM is not a hack.

[butterbumps!]

Again, the big point is Martin has kept all the secrets of the stories tru Arc, that of the others and their next coming

In the opening prologue they are mythical intelligent organized beings with shimmering armor or skin . they seem more alien or homo, than monster

Stop looking for clues to figure out these answers, there arent may, and the important ones, well this website has kept martin from putting them in the books

Not sure if that's directed at me, but if so, I won't try to substantiate anything here henceforth with "clues" and suggestion. But by your logic, we could just posit theories about how Moon Boy will ride on a unicorn pegasus while wielding Lightbringer and marry Ned Stark, but it doesn't make for productive conversation. Just throwing out ideas which don't stem from at least an attempt at "evidence" or "clues" is completely pointless. Sorry to cause such offense with substantiation (which is ironic, as most posters get upset when NO evidence is provided).

[Dr. Pepper]

Again, the big point is Martin has kept all the secrets of the stories tru Arc, that of the others and their next coming

In the opening prologue they are mythical intelligent organized beings with shimmering armor or skin . they seem more alien or homo, than monster

Stop looking for clues to figure out these answers, there arent may, and the important ones, well this website has kept martin from putting them in the books

The point of this forum is to look for and discuss clues. Delete your membership to this site if clue-searching bugs you.

It's a pretty big insult to an author to suggest that he will alter his story out of spite just because people figured out his clues and mysteries. A literary mystery is meant to be solved. I'm sure Martin is tickled pink by the fact that his books have sparked so much debate and discussion. Talking about the books is infinitely better than no one talking about them.

[Lady of Long Lake]

:shocked:

Homosapian, I imagine :)