(Book Spoilers) The HotU didn't deliver for me, but...

[Reposado]

There's also the issue of running into spoilers that viewers of Lost and such shows didn't have to deal with. It would be very difficult to search for the meaning behind the blue flower in the wall or Rhaegar and Elia without accidentally spoiling so much more.

there's places for discussion that don't allow book spoilers. iv'e seen them come up with things i never thought they would have based on show alone.

[Clariana]

It's not pointless; it's the subtext of the entire show. Winter is coming, and if it's merely the throne she wants, that's what she'll have: a frozen throne in an empty ruin. Drogo and Rhaego are what she's already lost in her quest - not just their lives, but, really, her own, too. It goes back to MMD's words - "What value does life have when everything else is taken away?", and to LC Mormont's - "When dead men walk and hunt us in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?".

She doesn't know about the coming Snowmageddon, but the viewers do, and she will (presumably) learn. That is the point to the HotU, and to the entire series as a whole.

I so agree... Mentsch tracht, Gott lacht.

If there is a main theme to GoT it is this; that mortal power struggles are ultimately always fruitless (a GAME, in fact) because man is just the casual thought of a second rate deity sandwiched between two ice ages... Utterly dependent upon an environment he cannot control.

[Currawong]

I'm not convinced they'll ever do a Rhaegar, Elia flashback because I'm not sure the non-reader audience can handle one. They'd have to start on that right away and keep the theme going for people to get it. If they do it, I'll consider it more icing on an already good cake, but I don't have my hopes up.

Again, I think this is one of the problems in adapting GRRM's books for the screen, because so much backstory in the books comes in thoughts and memories and simple exposition. From what we have seen so far, I think the writers are - wisely IMHO- very wary of doing any sort of flashbacks in this series. They can be incredibly confusing to viewers, especially in a show such as this which has so many characters and so many diffrent sub-plots. As an example, I recall some people I know being completely confused about flashbacks in the recent movie Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, yet there were far fewer characters in that story and many of the flashbacks were different scenes from one particular Christmas party.

As far as I can see, the GoT writers will try to give us really important backstory (which does not mean every little bit of backstory that dedicated book readers want!) in the form of exposition / dialogue scenes where they can best fit them in, rather than flashbacks. But this 'fitting in' may not be at the equivalent point in the TV story as the books. An excellent example of this was the Ned/Jaime confrontation in Series 1, where Jaime tells Ned about the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, and sheds some light on mad King Aerys. It's an invented scene, but sheds light on two important characters and gives us information about Aerys that we don't find out until much later in the books..

Don't forget all the previous screams on this board about "but there are no Reeks!", yet as we now know, they are being cast for Series 3 so are obviously being fitted in at a different point because of the requirments of adapting the books for TV. .

[Teren_Kanan]

Anyone else wonder if there is any kind of symbolism in the throne room scene? Maybe more than "the cold undead folk are a threat to kings landing"?

Snow is on the throne, after all.... =p

[Lord Godric]

Anyone else wonder if there is any kind of symbolism in the throne room scene? Maybe more than "the cold undead folk are a threat to kings landing"?

Snow is on the throne, after all.... =p

I've heard that often and I hope David and Dan are clever enough to have planned that all along. Especially considering she walks beyond the Wall afterwards.

[Lord of Cheese]

It's not pointless; it's the subtext of the entire show. Winter is coming, and if it's merely the throne she wants, that's what she'll have: a frozen throne in an empty ruin. Drogo and Rhaego are what she's already lost in her quest - not just their lives, but, really, her own, too. It goes back to MMD's words - "What value does life have when everything else is taken away?", and to LC Mormont's - "When dead men walk and hunt us in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?".

She doesn't know about the coming Snowmageddon, but the viewers do, and she will (presumably) learn. That is the point to the HotU, and to the entire series as a whole.

No, it's not about nothing. It's not the same as the book, but Dany is making choices about what she wants in life -- much like Tyrion chooses the game over a life in Pentos or Jon will have to choose between the Watch and other things soon or Theon or any number of characters this season. The visions try to convince her to stay in the dream with Drogo -- to forget that useless throne -- but she chooses elsewise.

It's more character based than the books. I thought it was good but not as good as the books. But it was not meaningless just because it didn't have the book meaning.

Right, this sequence serves a different purpose than it does in the books.

If that's true, and they're more like tricks set up by Pree to lure Dany into contentedness, then we should take the meanings of them with a grain of salt.

Why would she see any visions at all in tHotU? PP only mentions that she can find her Dragons and 'nothing' else. Yet here we have visions of her desires and supposedly what is to come. It doesnt serve any purpose given what is to come in the books.

Fair enough that the Drogo scene is to trap her in a dream state so she doesnt fight to leave, but how does a vision of a destroyed KL serve her in any way? Does the destruction happen after she is Queen, before she is queen or during? Does she even become queen of westeros?? Its probably just visual nonsense to make her think that the Throne is not worth pursuing and she should stay with Drogo... in a tiny tent in a snowstorm... at the base of the wall....

For me the KL destruction is just a cue for the viewers of the show that winter is coming rather than any useful info for Danny as a character, but maybe just as a potential trap for Danny to make her give up. Which seems clumsy to me.

[tolthar]

It's not pointless; it's the subtext of the entire show. Winter is coming, and if it's merely the throne she wants, that's what she'll have: a frozen throne in an empty ruin. Drogo and Rhaego are what she's already lost in her quest - not just their lives, but, really, her own, too. It goes back to MMD's words - "What value does life have when everything else is taken away?", and to LC Mormont's - "When dead men walk and hunt us in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?".

She doesn't know about the coming Snowmageddon, but the viewers do, and she will (presumably) learn. That is the point to the HotU, and to the entire series as a whole.

Everything here is precisely what I think! Well put

[Lord of Cheese]

I dont think its a vision of the future if she does such and such so its just outright false to suggest its a 'prophecy' of 'winter winning' the war against fire... and that she therefore shouldnt strive for the throne. She does need to be ruthless to get the throne and she will have to sacrifice many lives to get it. The vision is just not useful information to her in any way.

She does not give up her quest for the throne in the books (although she appears distracted atm), so showing her a frozen ruin is kinda useless and doesnt fit the story to come.

The vision is more to make her stay in the HotU to be trapped.

[BlackTalon]

I very much enjoyed the HOTU scene in the show precisely because it didn't attempt to put together a half-assed version of an unfilmable scene; the chaotic prophecy infodump is a trope that just works much better in prose than it ever could on the screen, and any vision that attempted to match the scene as described in the books would have never worked for any purpose other than to appease the purists.

thank you for saving me the effort of typing out precisely the same answer :-)

Someone ought to tell Linda ... jeez ...

Yeah I did like the image a lot. Were there brazier type things attached to the pillars in the throne room? Given the whole "fire kills wights" thing I figured that was some kind of defence against the wights and the cold itself but then the roof was burnt off which kinda suggested dragon fire.

Huh? those clearly are the same braziers that Joffrey had added to the throne room when he was redecorating (in the scene whee he was slapped by cersei) they had fires burning in those braziers in pretty much every throne room scene since ...!?!

Btw in the scene in the HOTU you can clearly see that there are icicles on one of the braziers, it is definitly snow and not ashes that are falling.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

We got the only piece of Book Version HOTU that really matters anyway:

Dragons have brought back magic.

Prophecies can be placed elsewhere at a later date, in dreams or whatever.

I'm just glad we are finished with the second worst part of Dany's journey. The next part is much more interesting. Then there's Mereen, but oh well.

[Blangadanger]

Anyone else think that the three scenes in her dream were representative of the past, present, and future? Drogo being the past she could've had, the present where the Wall is being overtaken by winter, and the future being when the Iron Throne stands in ruin. But since it was displayed in reverse order, I took it to mean that Pyat wanted her to dwell on the past rather than continue on her journey into the future. I think Dany's scene with Drogo was very instrumental in helping her tv-character understand that it is time to take control over her own destiny, and that destiny is fire and blood. She knows that her future will bring death to many, but she accepts it as truth of her own identity. She's been saying a lot since she "birthed" the dragons, but it wasn't until she escapes the dreams of the Houses of the Undying that she takes action.

Is it anything like the book? Not really. But do I think it's meaningless? Absolutely not.

[BlackTalon]

I think Dany's scene with Drogo was very instrumental in helping her tv-character understand that it is time to take control over her own destiny, [ ... ] but it wasn't until she escapes the dreams of the Houses of the Undying that she takes action.

After the show it occurred to me that this was some kind of echo of her "If I look back I am lost" line in the books. It must have been absolutley gut wrenching for her to meet Drogo again and even more so her child, how it could have been.

A weaker person might well have stayed there in that tent forever, but she tore herself away.

[MysteriousStranger08]

Personally, I thought the whole scene with Drogo, considering that she had to walk through the Wall to get to him, suggests that her family lies beyond the Wall/at the Wall i.e. Jon. I like the idea that having a vision of Drogo is showing Dany the life she could'be had, and for her to break away from the past and move forward, but I'm just wondering if there was a little bit of symbolism there.

As for the Iron Throne, difficult to interpret, but the idea of 'snow on the Iron Throne' is probably the most prevalent. I'm guessing that its also foreshadowing the White Walkers Invasion of Westeros, linking in with the idea of going beyond the Wall aswell.

Yes, its a pity we didn't have all the other visions and the three betrayels, but I suppose they can come later through Quaithe or something like that. While it wasn't fantastic, the HotU wasn't as bad as it could've been.

[pretzalz]

Fanatics do this, but the majority of show-watchers don't do much beyond occasional show recaps. I don't know any non-reader friends that watch GoT and then scour the net for information.

There's also the issue of running into spoilers that viewers of Lost and such shows didn't have to deal with. It would be very difficult to search for the meaning behind the blue flower in the wall or Rhaegar and Elia without accidentally spoiling so much more.

Let me point out, just in case it isn't obvious, the majority of book readers read the books once and don't scour the net for information. I read aCOK in 1999, and then again in 2004 in preperation of aFFC. That's it. This may blow your mind, but I took a leisurely 6 months to read aDWD. And I therefore consider myself above average for a book reader along with visiting these forums occasionally. Of course I acknowledge that I am below average for anyone that would visit online forums. I don't remember much at all of Qarth. I certainly didn't remember any of the prophesies. Well except for the 3 betrayals as that is repeated virtually every Dany POV. I reread the HoTU chapter twice after seeing the episode. The first rereading I still didn't notice the RW reference. I'm still not sure what the blue rose means. They are all easter eggs. Meant to be interesting tidbits for those that reread the books once a year, but by no means integral to the story.

[courtjezteruk]

I wonder if it was winter or if it was ash (Dragon Fire)...?

Thank god, i thought it was just me who thought it was ash rather than snow.

[moonsblood]

I wasn't expecting to see the visions as they were in the book, but I was expecting and excited to see Shade of the Evening, thanks alot D&D.

Also I think it was snow and ash in the throne room. Ice and Fire.

[wotad]

it was perfect you guys want to much me i love dany and only watch the show for her and i was happy with this

[King of the Road]

I think that Dany will take King's Landing, but not be crowned; hence her not quite touching the throne. She will then go North to fight the Others, as shown by her visit to the Wall.

Then, perhaps she will die in this battle, as we see her and Drogo reunited at the Wall.