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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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On a general note I'd have no problem with Kinglayer dying. It's kind of full circle, we're introduced to him trying to murder a boy and we could possibly see him die to save a boy.

Jaime got the chance to change. And he did, a little. But overall he was trapped by Casterly Rock and his family, just like in his dream in ASOS. He swore never to raise arms against Starks or Tullys, and he thinks he's satisfied that oath by merely threatening to murder Edmure's baby unless Edmure surrenders Riverrun, and making Edmure a prisoner for life, and threatening to shoot Edmure and even Jeyne full of arrows if the Brotherhood attacks their convoy. I doubt Catelyn will agree with his interpretation that he stuck to his oath when Tom o'Sevens fills her in on the trebuchet exchange.

Edited by The Lost Lord

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“We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end.”

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women.”

BwB is definitely in flux. Many of them are tired of war. A large portion of them don't like the way justice are carried out. Plenty of them are grateful for Brienne to save the children. All they need is someone who can lead them. Given that Gendry saved Brienne from her fight with Biter, he has grown to be more assertive. He will have a larger role to play given his story arc. Stoneheart is not going to be united with Arya as GRRM is not one to do so.

Hence I think Gendry is the one who will emerge from Jaime/Brienne/unCat a leader who leads to the demise of unCat. Isn't that GRRM's favorite ironic thing to have Gendry undo unCat given his close relationship with Arya in the past. More tragic, less obvious.

Edited by SugarVampire

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With this information we can assume that Brienne is leading Jaime into a trap. Upon being captured he will demand a trial by combat. Given he has only one hand, Lady Stoneherath will grant it. Maybe they've joined up with Thoros at this point. Stonehearth will choose Brienne as her champion and Jaime will fight himself. What that battle leads to only the gods know.

I don't think Jaime will lose, his arc would be pointless if he's to lose a trial by combat for horrors he did before he was on his redemption arc.

Brienne might well die. I don't see much use for her anymore other than having a final battle with Jaime. Or Jaime might get her into a position where he would be able to kill her and refrain from doing it, further convincing Stonehearth he is not the man he once was.

If Jaime somehow wins, Lady Stonehearth and moreso Thoros of Myr will be convinced of his innocence in the sight of the gods, especially since he won with only one hand. Maybe we will get a Victarion/Moqorro situation where Thoros animates Jaime's right hand, somehow making it bound to only fight the good fights.

Maybe Stonehearth then forces him to go after Sansa/Arya or kill Cersei/Walder Frey/Roose Bolton.

You know, trial by combat between the two would be a good way to fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy by having either one of them plunge Oathkeeper through the others heart.

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What is going to happen with the Brienne/Jaime situation? I have no clue. But I don't feel like Jaime's story is over quite et, nor do I feel like Briennes is. The BWB on the other hand, I do not feel like they have any part to play. They have lost their purpose under Stoneheart. Individuals of the BWB haven't lost their purpose but the BWB as a whole has. Thoros and Gendry specifically have a part to play still, IMO.

So, my crackpotish theory is that Jaimes golden hand will get turned real by Thoros, he will have a greater part in Cerseis down fall and the war against the Others. I think Brienne will have a part to play against the Others as well. We can't lose these great warriors with the threat of the Others coming.

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He's dead I believe. I don't know if I believe Podrick is alive. I'm pretty sure he was hanging by the end of Brienne's last chapter in A Feast for Crows.....

I've never seen the appeal of Pod. Seems like another idiot. I can do without him.

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If Pod wasn't alive, Brienne would have no reason to lie to Jaime about Sansa.

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He's dead I believe. I don't know if I believe Podrick is alive. I'm pretty sure he was hanging by the end of Brienne's last chapter in A Feast for Crows.....

I've never seen the appeal of Pod. Seems like another idiot. I can do without him.

Surely if Podrick is alive then so is Hyle?

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I knew it! I said it was either way Sword or Jaime. Fuck yeah! My first good prediction.

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I was there for this reading, it was so amazing. Getting to meet Mr. Martin and shake his hand was the coolest. I got his autograph, and watched the Battle of Blackwater with him. The man is cool, seriously cool.

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Yeah, Podrick Payne has a part to play most certainly. He is an innocent bystander right now. He has done nothing to give offence to the BwB. It is for that reason that Brienne desires to save him. One he is a young man. Second, he's innocent. The next Brienne/Jaime chapters are going to be quite interesting though. Why have Pod interact with Tyrion, then Brienne, and then Cat? He had plenty of chances to be killed off. He keeps popping his little head up now and again. I don't think that would be the case if he were to just be executed by Lady Stoneheart.

Very good spotting! Pod is an innocent young maiden.

I find it really interesting that Ser Brienne, as a lady-knight, does the equivalent, mutatis mutandi, of rescuing fair damsels in distress.

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It's nice to have confirmation that it was indeed "sword." I like both Jaime and Brienne. The age-old story of two people who dislike each other and end up winning each others respect gets me every time.

However, I'm thinking one of them will die. Probably Jaime because if Brienne dies, he'll have to look over Pod and Jaime doesn't need anymore squires. ;)

Of course then we wouldn't see Jaime kill Cersei, and that would be disappointing.

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In the prophetic vague dream, Brienne seems to outlive Jaime - his sword goes out, but hers is still alight.

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No,she is a light to him. As long she lives (acts in order to help him restore his honour) so does he. So,she is instrumental.

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No,she is a light to him. As long she lives (acts in order to help him restore his honour) so does he. So,she is instrumental.

I like this!

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What is going to happen with the Brienne/Jaime situation? I have no clue. But I don't feel like Jaime's story is over quite et, nor do I feel like Briennes is. The BWB on the other hand, I do not feel like they have any part to play. They have lost their purpose under Stoneheart. Individuals of the BWB haven't lost their purpose but the BWB as a whole has. Thoros and Gendry specifically have a part to play still, IMO.

So, my crackpotish theory is that Jaimes golden hand will get turned real by Thoros, he will have a greater part in Cerseis down fall and the war against the Others. I think Brienne will have a part to play against the Others as well. We can't lose these great warriors with the threat of the Others coming.

First off, I haven't been on the forum or any ASOIAF related thing, since my exams start monday, and political problems that remind me of ACOK are raround (yes, more Egyptians need to read ASOIAF) so, you're welcome everyone. I haven't been able to read all of the posts since time is short lately, so forgive me if this has been said before:

Let's not forget that we're reading GRRM and not JRR Tolkien or JK Rowling. Eddard Stark seemed to have a bigger part to play - tell Robert about Cersei, legitimize Gendry, tell Jon about his mother.... Maybe Jaime's hand will be reanimated my Thoros of Myr, and he will be the downfall of the Lannisters (unless you believe my other theory that a Reyne still lives), but whatever his part to play is, George can easily kill him off. Pod could take his place in that, and get revenge for what the king did to Ilyn (I don't remember whether Robert or Aerys cut his tongue out, sue me.) Whichever it was, he could lead the BWB against fake Aegon, or maybe Daenerys, if not Cersei.

What's actually bothering me and making me think a lot, is Jon's fate. Jon is my favorite character, followed by Tyrion, and I hated to wait between ACOK and ASOS to find out his fate, as much as I hate the wait to find out Jon's fate.

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Can someone explain why Brienne saying "sword" saved her life? I know it was crucial and all but I was kinda speed reading A Feast for Crows (due to some school stuff) and I didn't quite catch why it was so important or its significance to Lady Stoneheart....

I just want Cat to kill all the Freys by the end of this series. Every single one. And Lord Walder Frey to be the last.

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unCat offered a choice between sword or rope.

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Can someone explain why Brienne saying "sword" saved her life? I know it was crucial and all but I was kinda speed reading A Feast for Crows (due to some school stuff) and I didn't quite catch why it was so important or its significance to Lady Stoneheart....

I just want Cat to kill all the Freys by the end of this series. Every single one. And Lord Walder Frey to be the last.

"She says you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or noose, she says."

Brienne chooses not to answer so UnCat orders Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle to be hanged; Brienne screams out her choice. Read this.

Edited by Fire Eater

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Ah yes, thanks for sharing indeed. That is a pivotal little plot mystery morsel.

I am a little disappointed that it is not a different word with some clever twist.

However, with all the outlandish options proffered before this GRRM confirmation it is worth remembering that Brienne's "trial" before Lady Stoneheart took place underground. Brienne is lead by a handful (two I think) of BwB men above ground to be hung. So Lady Stoneheart is not present when she is being hung. Whatever word she says had to appeal to those men, not Lady Stoneheart. "Sword" works because all her heard Lady Stoneheart's deal.

Brienne needed to get Jaime out of the Castle. She could have simply said "I need your help". Mentioning Sansa has more dramatic tension but its not necessarily a lie. Brienne realizes that she is the only one (& Pod) out abroad seeking Sansa who wishes to protect her. She does not wish to fail Sansa (or Jaime's honour) in that. So by Jaime helping her escape the BwB he is helping her rescue Sansa. (Against this is that Brienne doubts she can find Sansa, but Brienne is nothing if not resolved in her quest).

I agree though... the key to this situation is not Brienne, who is caught between conflicts of honour (though she has simple, clear-cutting cleverness of a sort). It is not Jaime who is not sword-capable and beyond all appeal to Stoneheart&BwB as a lion and a kingslayer. The key is GENDRY!

What reason/evidence has there been for Gendry to turn against Lady Stoneheart?

“We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end.”

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women.”

BwB is definitely in flux. Many of them are tired of war. A large portion of them don't like the way justice are carried out. Plenty of them are grateful for Brienne to save the children. All they need is someone who can lead them. Given that Gendry saved Brienne from her fight with Biter, he has grown to be more assertive. He will have a larger role to play given his story arc. Stoneheart is not going to be united with Arya as GRRM is not one to do so.

Hence I think Gendry is the one who will emerge from Jaime/Brienne/unCat a leader who leads to the demise of unCat. Isn't that GRRM's favorite ironic thing to have Gendry undo unCat given his close relationship with Arya in the past. More tragic, less obvious.

Gendry will accept a lot of abuse (he takes his father's abandonment and Tobo Mott's rejection to the Watch in his stride). But he has some fierce principles. He needs momentum to rile him to action.

The last thing Brienne was trying to do with some urgency before Biter & Rorge was tell Gendry of his father. Lady Stoneheart and Jaime and Brienne all KNOW with some certainty (from the Jaime dungeon interview) that Tommen is not a Baratheon. Many might see that as granting Gendry a real and legitimate claim to the Throne. The new king to lead the King's men (He is older than Edric Storm).

We also see in the inn that Gendry is also decidedly serious about his new faith in the lord of Light. Lady Stoneheart is not. With the lightest of pushes from Thoros this may spur Gendry to action as well.

We see he is still making his sword (which he plans to use) so maybe he is in brooding preparation (Him and Stannis would get along).

We also know he joined the BwB because he was truly inspired by how Beric was different. He also took an oath. And he's not afraid to die or face danger or hardship.

This is the scene where Gendry joins the Brotherhood without Banners:

“You would do better serving Lord Tully at Riverrun,” said Lord Beric. “I cannot pay for your work.”

“No one ever did. I want a forge, and food to eat, some place I can sleep. That’s enough, m’lord.”

“A smith can find a welcome most anywhere. A skilled armorer even more so. Why would you choose to stay with us?”

Arya watched Gendry screw up his stupid face, thinking. “At the hollow hill, what you said about being King Robert’s men, and brothers, I liked that. I liked that you gave the Hound a trial. Lord Bolton just hanged folk or took off their heads, and Lord Tywin and Ser Amory were the same. I’d sooner smith for you.”

“We got plenty of mail needs mending, m’lord,” Jack reminded Lord Beric. “Most we took off the dead, and there’s holes where the death came through.”

“You must be a lackwit, boy,” said Lem. “We’re outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don’t think it’ll be like Tom’s fool songs neither. You won’t be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you’ll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate.”

“It’s no more than they’d do for you,” said Gendry.

“Aye, that’s so,” said Jack-Be-Lucky cheerfully. “The crows await us all, M’lord, the boy seems brave enough, and we do have need of what he brings us. Take him, says Jack.”

“And quick,” suggested Harwin, chuckling, “before the fever passes and he comes back to his senses.”

A wan smile crossed Lord Beric’s lips. “Thoros, my sword.”

This time the lightning lord did not set the blade afire, but merely laid it light on Gendry’s shoulder. “Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?”

“I do, m’lord.”

The marcher lord moved the sword from the right shoulder to the left, and said, “Arise Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill, and be welcome to our brotherhood.”

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