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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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Not to go off topic but I wonder why Thoros doesn't see Robert in Gendry. He's been around since at least the Greyjoy rebellion so he'd have seen a young Robert in his prime.

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We have no evidence as to what Thoros thinks about Gendry.

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It does seem a bit odd if he does not know, maybe he will be able to support briennes claim of who gendry lending some credibility as he is a part of the BWB

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I think he does know, and is hiding it. i do not think someone like Thoros would ignore the resemblace if not between Gendry and Robert, then between Gendry and Renly. Since Renly is gay, then its impossible that he be his bastard. Stannis is too honorable to father a bastard, yet Robert only cares about food, wine, and pussy.

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Since Renly is gay, then its impossible that he be his bastard.

Huh? That isn’t the way these things work. At all!

Renly can’t be Gendry’s father because the ages don’t work, not because Gendry’s gay. What a bizarre idea!

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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@hmadkour Less likely,but not impossible.

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Huh? That isn’t the way these things work. At all!

Renly can’t be Gendry’s father because the ages don’t work, not because Gendry’s gay. What a bizarre idea!

How is it bizzare?! Renly is clearly gay and therefore cannot father a child, unless he starts sleeping with women also. Which he isn't, because he's gay!?! It's very straight forward....

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How is it bizzare?! Renly is clearly gay and therefore cannot father a child, unless he starts sleeping with women also. Which he isn't, because he's gay!?! It's very straight forward....

He isn't incapable of sleeping with women just because he's gay, he would just rather hang out with his best bud Loras. If he became King with Margery as his queen, don't think for one second he wouldn't have an heir in her belly just because of his sexual preference.

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How is it bizzare?! Renly is clearly gay and therefore cannot father a child, unless he starts sleeping with women also. Which he isn't, because he's gay!?! It's very straight forward....

Gay men have fathered children throughout recorded history. They do it in the usual way. Renly is about 20 and Gendry is 13 or 14. That's why he can't be Gendry's father.

I'd say, though, that, as an unacknowledged bastard, Gendry has no rights to the throne whatever. Even Edric Storm, an acknowledged bastard, has no rights to the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if Gendry ends up as Lord of Storm's End in the event of the complete extinction of the legitimate Baratheon line (I doubt Stannis and Shireen will live out the series). But I'd be shocked if he ends up as King.

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How is it bizzare?! Renly is clearly gay and therefore cannot father a child, unless he starts sleeping with women also. Which he isn't, because he's gay!?! It's very straight forward....

Because that isn’t the way human sexuality works, that’s why.

Just because someone prefers their own gender doesn’t mean they cannot have sex with the other one, and moreso than someone who preferred the other gender cannot have sex with their own. This happens all the time.

This whole “gay identity” thing is a modern construct. It’s a bit of a myth really, nothing more than a sometimes-convenient shorthand of sorts, but not really one that’s somehow applicable as some ironclad law of humany sexuality that governs what people can and cannot do. People can do anything they want; always have and always will. This was much more widely recognized previous to our modern era where we get too hung up on boxing people in with simplifying labels.

This is why modern health care workers don’t call people “gay”. That isn’t a useful term for their purposes. Instead, they use the much more honest and descriptive “men who have sex with men”, and similar related terms.

Most of the “gay” men and women I know have had sex with members of the opposite gender/sex (and sometimes still do, even though they consider themselves gay). In the same fashion, a surprising number of the “straight” men and women I know (especially) well have at least at some point had some congress with members of their own gender/sex.

This should have all been covered in any halfway decent sex-ed class. It certainly was when I was in school. It’s just how real people are in the real world, and Martin is trying to portray things realistically.

There really is no actual problem with Renly having sex with a woman if he wanted to and needed to. Yes, the whole Margaery thing has to have been a bit of a head-trip for him, since his wife was his lover’s own sister. But these are sophisticated people who very much knew their duty to the realm. He knew full well what he was getting into, and so did they. I’m sure they wouldn’t have let a silly thing like a label that doesn’t even exist in Martin’s world get in the way of kingmaking.

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Huh? That isn’t the way these things work. At all!

Renly can’t be Gendry’s father because the ages don’t work, not because Gendry’s gay. What a bizarre idea!

What I meant was that Renly would not go to a brothel, get a whore, and get her pregnant. If he lived out, he could have had children with Margaery out of duty, but what would a gay man be doing with a whore?

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Why is everyone assuming Pod survived? All that has been confirmed is the word that Brienne screamed, and her reasons for screaming it.

We also know, from GRRMs other comments, that the undead have a mission-focus, but loss of humanity. So it is perfectly plausible that UnBrienne is focussed on her sword-mission, buy has forgotten the human reasons that originally motivated her to accept it.

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Why is everyone assuming Pod survived? All that has been confirmed is the word that Brienne screamed, and her reasons for screaming it.

We also know, from GRRMs other comments, that the undead have a mission-focus, but loss of humanity. So it is perfectly plausible that UnBrienne is focussed on her sword-mission, buy has forgotten the human reasons that originally motivated her to accept it.

Brienne never died, and she wasn't revived. She screamed "sword" to save Pod's life. When she screamed that word, they cut her and Pod as well as Ser Hyle down.

Edited by Fire Eater

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Brienne never died, and she wasn't revived. She screamed "sword" to save Pod's life. When she screamed that word, they cut her and Pod as well as Ser Hyle down.

That's your theory. My theory is that she screamed "sword" but the scream was in her mind. Nobody heard her, except herself and perhaps the demon-god Rh'llor, because, after all, it is rather hard to scream audibly when you are being strangled to death by a noose.

Since no-one heard her, no-one cut her down, and no-one cut down Pod either. Pod and Brienne are dead.

Later, Stoneheart is inspired by Rh'llor to give Brienne the kiss of fire. She becomes UnBrienne. Her mission and purpose is undeath is the word "sword" representing the mission "take the sword and kill the kingslayer". Her first target is Jaime, but there will be other targets. Note that killing the kingslayer (Renly's killer) was her mission even before she yelled "sword".

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So Lady Stoneheart kills Brienne only to revive her? Makes sense. Stoneheart being undead herself will have no life force to sacrifice to revive Brienne. And she has no reason to revive her anyway. Why would Rh'llor have anything to do with Stoneheart or Brienne. And why would a worshipper of the Seven, currently in a blood frenzy quest for revenge, bother reviving a woman she just executed just because Rh'llor asked her to? She could have Jaime killed herself. The whole point of Brienne doing it is to test her loyalty. Brienne further being forced into a conflict of loyalty is a much better story than that crackpot theory you cooked up! No offence.

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So Lady Stoneheart kills Brienne only to revive her? Makes sense.

What's the alternative? Stoneheart ordered her killed, and walked away. Someone revived her, either naturally (before she was fully dead) or unnaturally. Either someone changed their mind and cut her down, or someone changed their mind and gave her the kiss of fire. One makes as much sense as the other, expecially since one cannot utter screams audible to mortal ears while being strangled to death by a noose.

Stoneheart being undead herself will have no life force to sacrifice to revive Brienne.

And yet, UnBeric revived Stoneheart with a kiss.

And she has no reason to revive her anyway.

Nor had UnBeric any reason to revive Stoneheart. He just felt inspired/compelled to act as he did.

Why would Rh'llor have anything to do with Stoneheart or Brienne.

It was Thoros who, with Rh'llor's aid, created UnBeric, and UnBeric, based on a nameless inspiriation/compulsion, who created UnCat. It seems to all go back to Rh'llor. Ask why all you want, but Rh'llor is involved in this mess.

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That's your theory. My theory is that she screamed "sword" but the scream was in her mind. Nobody heard her, except herself and perhaps the demon-god Rh'llor, because, after all, it is rather hard to scream audibly when you are being strangled to death by a noose.

Since no-one heard her, no-one cut her down, and no-one cut down Pod either. Pod and Brienne are dead.

Later, Stoneheart is inspired by Rh'llor to give Brienne the kiss of fire. She becomes UnBrienne. Her mission and purpose is undeath is the word "sword" representing the mission "take the sword and kill the kingslayer". Her first target is Jaime, but there will be other targets. Note that killing the kingslayer (Renly's killer) was her mission even before she yelled "sword".

There is no evidence that Brienne was revived after she had been killed. Jaime didn't observe the glowing eyes on Brienne, nor did he observe any marks around her neck.

Screaming requires exhaling not inhaling, so Brienne could have screamed a word.

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What's the alternative? She got cut down because she agreed to kill Jaime. Pod was the one that was hanging, as far as I remember Brienne wasn't. I certainly don't remember the chapter describing Brienne gasping for breath.

Beric did revive Cat whilst he was undead himself, I'll give you that. But Beric had some sense of duty to Ned Stark so reviving his wife who has just died at the hands of his enemy (Freys are in league with Lannisters) is not as bizarre as Cat reviving the woman she just ordered to be executed because of what? Some divine intervention? Stoneheart is on a quest for vengeance, I doubt she would act on a whim. If she was capable of that I'm sure she could have seen reason with Brienne in the first place.

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There is no evidence that Brienne was revived after she had been killed.

Yes there is. We see her walking around in Jaime's last chapter. Therefore, someone must have revived her.

Jaime didn't observe the glowing eyes on Brienne

No. But he does see her walking and talking.

nor did he observe any marks around her neck.

Are you trying to prove she was not hanged? We know she was hanged. We were there.

Screaming requires exhaling not inhaling, so Brienne could have screamed a word.

Exhale or Inhale, what's the difference. If your air passages are blocked, air cannot move in EITHER direction. Duh!

One cannot scream when one's throat is being fatally constricted by a rope. It was hurting her worse than anything she had ever experienced, and this from a girl who is a projessional warrior and who has recently had half of her face chewed off. That, to me, strongly suggests she is past the screaming stage.

Edited by Fearsome Fred

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What's the alternative? She got cut down because she agreed to kill Jaime. Pod was the one that was hanging, as far as I remember Brienne wasn't.

You remember wrongly. They were both being hanged.

I certainly don't remember the chapter describing Brienne gasping for breath.

Of course not. You cannot gasp for breath when you are being hanged. You cannot breath, gasp, wheeze, speak, talk or scream. And once you have reached the point where the pain is worse than anything you have ever experienced, you are far far past that stage.

Edited by Fearsome Fred

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