Lyanna Stark Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I am one of those who likes the later Braavos chapters less than the earlier ones. For me, it is not because I stopped liking or caring about Arya, but rather that I just don't like the Faceless Men that much. Many folks seem excited about them being such badass assassins, but for some reason I just don't find them all that appealing. I think it is partially the fact that I feel like they are 'using' Arya at the moment. I wouldn't mind it if she learned all about them and then went on her own way and did her own thing. I just know that the FM must have some sort of agenda, and I just don't like them. They give me the creeps.I agree with this. Arya's AFFC/ADWD chapters are sad and scary becausea. the Faceless Men definitely have an agenda and like you, I get a feeling they are using Arya. There is nothing like a free lunch, especially not in ASOIAF.b. Arya is lonely and apart from her family. Like Sansa, I think what she really wants deep down is to reunite with them. She is still a little girl and people tend to forget that, because they have this wish for her to be "badass". Well, I'd prefer to see her happy before "badass". In my view, (and I dare say Olenna Tyrell's) there is far too much tut tut-ing and far too many wishes for badassery.Like with Dany's and Sansa's arcs, people prefer action before character development, hence why Dany gets so much flak for ADWD. Murdering people is certainly action, but what does it say about character development and Arya's own mental state and moral compass? If it was real life, she'd be a borderline sociopath or at least a child soldier.Wow, you 1% or readers, you got told!Seriously, Arya gets so little vituperation from readers, it's strange to see a post defending her...It's because she fulfills the tomboy trope and even male readers who dislike "omg feminine stuff" can identify with her. Hence why female characters who are more observers or female characters focusing more on character development (Sansa, Cat, ADWD Dany) get so much hate and misunderstanding, because people don't want to read about characters growing, understanding their surroundings and developing, they want to read about characters killing shit, burning cities, waving swords around and gaining leet magical abilities. Despite the fact that they are reading the wrong series, this is what people expect and when characters don't live up to their expectations....they get hated.This also explains stuff like the fan love for Victarion Greyjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I tend to just skip them on re-read. For now these chapters have added almost nothing to anything else. After Sam leaves Braavos the chapters suffer from a huge lack of immersion in the rest of the story and a lack of other interesting characters. Apart from Arya becoming an assassin and some background into the Faceless Men there's little information you really get from them and thus not really much in those chapters that retains interest. I've never liked recurring sentences if they recur too much, and Arya's lip-chewing habits and conversations with 'the Kindly Man' really put me off after a while. Which is not to say I despise Arya, in fact her chapters with the Hound were some of the best, but this training thing has been dragging on for far too long while very interesting things happen away from the POVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I agree with this. Arya's AFFC/ADWD chapters are sad and scary becausea. the Faceless Men definitely have an agenda and like you, I get a feeling they are using Arya. There is nothing like a free lunch, especially not in ASOIAF.b. Arya is lonely and apart from her family. Like Sansa, I think what she really wants deep down is to reunite with them. She is still a little girl and people tend to forget that, because they have this wish for her to be "badass". Well, I'd prefer to see her happy before "badass". In my view, (and I dare say Olenna Tyrell's) there is far too much tut tut-ing and far too many wishes for badassery.Like with Dany's and Sansa's arcs, people prefer action before character development, hence why Dany gets so much flak for ADWD. Murdering people is certainly action, but what does it say about character development and Arya's own mental state and moral compass? If it was real life, she'd be a borderline sociopath or at least a child soldier.Most of the critiques Arya has gotten have come from the killings she did while as a FM as opposed to the ones she committed before she left for Braavos even though her blood count was much higher. She has crossed the line of killing in self defense or killing someone who could be a threat to her.She's killed I believe two people from AFFC to ADWD and the KM reigned her in when she wanted to kill more than the insurance man.I think Dany gets criticized for what she didn't do and that's going to Westeros, learning to control her dragons, and allying with Dorne. Some of her actions get the most criticisms though like what she did to the slavers. It's used for evidence as to why she's turning into an Aerys/Tywin mix.EDIT:Dany did try for peace and try to rule but I think people really didn't want her to stay in Mereen and that was the problem. When she does finally decide to do something in her last chapter when she said that dragons plant no trees people see her as a villain who is coming to destroy Westeros. I think they think that she's crazy now and only knows how to bring death and destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I love,love Braavos Arya,best thing ever!! I just wish GRRM went really into telling while writing affc... maybe as a stand alone novella.There are many lengths I would go to in order to get an Arya in Braavos training novella. We assume it takes place during TWOW and she is introduced back to the narrative in the latter half/third of the text. This would own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keelhaul Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 ...I don't mean to sound very harsh (no flame intended) but judging by what you wrote in that comment, you come through as an intensely sexist person.I'm saying that your reasoning is only correct if we accept that men are the way you describe them. Since I'm not sure that view is correct, I'll have to say your complete reasoning is quite possibly false.It's quite interesting to read about an emotionally unstable character. Especially if the character is well written. Arya is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I never really liked Arya chapters to begin with. Her with the BwB and the Hound were the only chapters I really enjoyed, and I'll admit, they're some of the best in the entire series. Arya's story has always lacked the politics I have so much desired from these books. Bran (who's one of my favorites) also lacks the politics but I find CotF and warging much more interesting than the faceless men. Its not really against Arya, its more against where she is, and what she's doing that I dont really enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Ah Keelhaul in the spirit of ecumenical friendliness maybe you should reread Lyanna Stark's post, "It's because she fulfills the tomboy trope and even male readers who dislike "omg feminine stuff" can identify with her" doesn't imply that all male readers dislike feminine stuff or that all male readers only like Arya. There's no sweeping description of all men in that post that I can see...ETA I do find the premise of this thread very weird. In years of posting here I haven't seen anybody say that they hate Arya's post Saltpans chapters, she's tends to be a consistently popular character across the fandom as far as I can tell, maybe there is some pimply squire somewhere who isn't fond of her :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keelhaul Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Ah Keelhaul in the spirit of ecumenical friendliness maybe you should reread Lyanna Stark's post, "It's because she fulfills the tomboy trope and even male readers who dislike "omg feminine stuff" can identify with her" doesn't imply that all male readers dislike feminine stuff or that all male readers only like Arya. There's no sweeping description of all men in that post that I can see..."because people don't want to read about characters growing, understanding their surroundings and developing, they want to read about characters killing shit, burning cities, waving swords around and gaining leet magical abilities"This sentence has a stronger smell for me. We men sure like detonations and destroying shit.Edit:Two notes:A) It's quite obvious that the comment as phrased doesn't have a sentence I can grab and say: 'This is sexist'. The whole text though does have a distinct feel to it. I for one felt it quite offending to be honest.B) Avoiding 'All X are Y' statements are not ism-proof. Saying that 'group X has a tendency to do some stuff more than group Y' without providing evidence could also be *ist. So saying that 'even male readers who dislike omg feminine stuff can identify with her' and then going on to say "because people don't want to read about characters growing, understanding their surroundings and developing, they want to read about characters killing shit, burning cities, waving swords around and gaining leet magical abilities" is describing probably the same group. Now the problem with this is that she is using the term people (which of course doesn't specify gender but specifies probably a majority as people is quite a general term) and it's not a huge leap to assume that she is merging the two groups together.After reading the comment it seemed like quite a rant to me. Especially as the only option for liking Arya chapter was the said scenario. Which is a possible one but it's a simplification.Bonus edit note! I am baffled by the Victarion love. He sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 people include both men and women as far as I am aware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Honestly this thread is weird, of all the characters I can say that Arya gets the least amount of hate.I didn't like her in my first read-through, but then again, I never like child POVs so I disliked half of the POVs of AGOT. She added little in later books when I was much more interested in blasting through the interesting story and not dealing with her pointless roundabout journey.On my second read I appreciated her journey more because of what it said about the war and the nobles, but still she was the person I cared least about in Dance/Feast. Hooray, you're a super assassin killing people because...? Am I supposed to care or find this cool? I don't think that she'll become a FM simply because I don't think she has it in her to be subsumed into that system, not a good thing as far as I'm concerned, she might have disappeared and saved me one more POV I could give less of a shit about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keelhaul Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 people include both men and women as far as I am awareYou are quite right, although it's perfectly normal to assume by the context that we're in the male population subset now and 'people' as a term just expands that subset to a very significiant, might I say majority subset without removing labels (even adding some). These assumptions are based on the style of the comment, being in the same paragraph, being adjacent sentences, the whole spirit of the comment and content.Edit:As this debate is quite pointless and time consuming, we can agree to disagree.Edit2:And to avoid further flame I take it all back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowKnight Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I don't care for Arya-post-ASOS because I don't care much about The Faceless Men or Braavos. Sure Syrio and Jaqen were great characters but I seriously never cared much for their backgrounds. Braavos feels like a detour and so far haven't managed to contribute to anything that I care about, at least not in Arya's chapters. And I don't feel that any of they characters she interacts with is as interesting as the ones she meet in the previous books.And then I loved Arya's chapters in ACOK and ASOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Hence why female characters who are more observers or female characters focusing more on character development (Sansa, Cat, ADWD Dany) get so much hate and misunderstanding, because people don't want to read about characters growing, understanding their surroundings and developing, they want to read about characters killing shit, burning cities, waving swords around and gaining leet magical abilities. Yup. :lol: If I wanted to read about teen-age female angst I'd read frickin' Judy Blume. And considering what's going on in Westeros, it seems to me that a knife-carrying female has a distinct advantage, natural selection-wise. It's only common sense to be prepared for anything.It's my position that Arya is more herself as an assassin-in-training than she was as a highborn Westerosi girl being pushed into the role of a vanilla obedient baby-factory wife of some random highborn boy. Fer the love all the gods, her mother betrothed her to a brand-x Frey without the least hesitation. I really hated Catelyn at that moment. :angry: It is Westeros that is trying to turn Arya into "no one." Presumably if she returns TPTB will try to shove here into the highborn girl box again, if they dare (the knives and wolves might be a deterent). The FM, on the other hand, are actively teaching her to fill the position of one of the most powerful people in their world, even if she's required to lie about her identity. I vote for the FM and Braavos. Yea, Braavos!And yes, her story is following the classic revenge story pattern, i.e. helpless child sees family destroyed, helpless child goes into training, helpless child turns into BAMF, BAMF returns home to kick bad-guy ass. Think Batman. And clearly, there's a surfeit of Stark enemies that need their asses kicked; UnCat can't do it all, Jon is mostly dead, Bran is a tree, Rickon is still a baby (although his nice uncle Wyman may help him out in the ass-kicking department), and Sansa is, well, Sansa. Yes Arya the assassin is definitely needed.I might have uncovered another of GRRM's tributes -- Arya with the her knives makes me think of Dune's Alia of the Knife. Alia's brother was the savior of Arrakis; Arya's brother Jon is on his way to becoming the savior of Westeros, or so many people think. More evidence that Jon is TPTWP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I don't mean to sound very harsh (no flame intended) but judging by what you wrote in that comment, you come through as an intensely sexist person.I am going to surprise Lummel here and be gentle. :PNo, I am not a sexist person. In fact, I am one of the card carrying feminists around here and quite pre-occupied with questions of misogyny, stereotypes, etc.I'm saying that your reasoning is only correct if we accept that men are the way you describe them. Since I'm not sure that view is correct, I'll have to say your complete reasoning is quite possibly false.Well, this is you assuming that by people I mean men, which means that women are not people? :)Readers of fantasy in general and perusers of popular culture have certain expectations on works like ASOIAF, and they include reading about stuff like warrior queens, tomboys, badass heroes with Magic Swords, etc. These characters we are used to and we understand them easier (or at least we think we do!), while more internal characters or observers, like Sansa and Cat are more difficult to appreciate since it takes more careful reading and considering to get something out of their chapters. These characters are rarely about action, but about character development and as evidenced by this forum a lot of people think they're just some boring little ladies sitting around not doing very much, i.e. there are expectations of action, of sword waving, or killing, of magic and heroism.It's quite interesting to read about an emotionally unstable character. Especially if the character is well written. Arya is.I wouldn't say Arya is emotionally unstable as such. Theon is emotionally unstable. Tyrion as of ADWD had touches of being emotionally unstable. Arya is treading a dangerous path, but isn't lost yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 All 5 of you - in your face, haters! ;) Personally I love "Cat of the Canals", it's maybe the best written chapter in the whole series. Braavos really comes to life in it, and the prose is gorgeous. The rest of the Braavos chapters aren't as good, but still on roughly the same level as the Arya chapters in Westeros IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I agree that Arya is one of the most popular characters around here, and she does not really need that defending. Personally, I liked her chapters from the beginning - as I liked all the children's chapters - and continued to do so until now. What I do not like about it is that she is now so disconnected from the rest of the story, stuck in Braavos with not as much as communicationg with other important characters.She is easy to love, I think, her chapters are full of action and travelling, plus she meets a lot of other interesting people. Now I hope she leaves the FM as soon as possible or perhaps a little earlier and go meet either Dany or return to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys Targaryen Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Well, I *surprise surprise* don't love Arya as the vast majority, never did. The same way I dislike Hit-girl from Kick-Ass. It is a matter of personal taste whether you agree or not. From what I've seen, most people will disagree :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Reed Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 It is Westeros that is trying to turn Arya into "no one."That is... just an awesome sentence right there!I might have uncovered another of GRRM's tributes -- Arya with the her knives makes me think of Dune's Alia of the Knife.Yeah, I think forum member and fellow Arya fan (IIRC) Alia of the knife might have uncovered that also... :P (This reminds me that I really have got to read Dune one of these days.)---Arya is my favorite character, and I'm intrigued by what her sojourn in Braavos will lead to --- and really enjoy the chapters as well. I'm not sure she will go all super-assassin once reunited with the main plot, but she sure is acquiring some handy skills for the future. What I'm really itching for now, is for her to formulate some personal goals and set out to achieve them. How will that work out for her? For everyone else? How will it mesh with the plans the FM might have/their philosophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 The FM may be related to the Iron Bank of Braavos, and the Iron Bank has no reason to like the current regime. Who better to send than someone who knows her way across the countryside and is familiar with the ins and outs of King's Landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Just to clarify - I didn't start this post to defend Arya as a character, it was more because I have read a lot of people dismissing the Arya in Braavos chapters as boring or going nowhere. I just really liked them and didn't understand why some people found them to be boring. I wanted to defend the Braavos chapters. Obviously, a 12 year old FM in training that can warg into wolves and cats doesn't need my help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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