To all the haters of post-Saltpans Arya chapters

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

Wow, you 1% of readers, you got told!

Seriously, Arya gets so little vituperation from readers, it's strange to see a post defending her...

She receives just as few accolades.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I am going to surprise Lummel here and be gentle.

No, I am not a sexist person. In fact, I am one of the card carrying feminists around here and quite pre-occupied with questions of misogyny, stereotypes, etc.

. . .

Well, this is you assuming that by people I mean men, which means that women are not people?

Readers of fantasy in general and perusers of popular culture have certain expectations on works like ASOIAF, and they include reading about stuff like warrior queens, tomboys, badass heroes with Magic Swords, etc. These characters we are used to and we understand them easier (or at least we think we do!), while more internal characters or observers, like Sansa and Cat are more difficult to appreciate since it takes more careful reading and considering to get something out of their chapters. These characters are rarely about action, but about character development and as evidenced by this forum a lot of people think they're just some boring little ladies sitting around not doing very much, i.e. there are expectations of action, of sword waving, or killing, of magic and heroism.

I wouldn't say Arya is emotionally unstable as such. Theon is emotionally unstable. Tyrion as of ADWD had touches of being emotionally unstable. Arya is treading a dangerous path, but isn't lost yet.

Okay, so Arya fans aren't warmongering troglodytes, they're troglodytes with short attention spans and poor reading skills. Well, I'm glad that's cleared up!

[Queen Cersei I]

I just don't get where you are coming from. Were you not intrigued by how Jaqen H'gar got a man's own dog to rip his throat out? Or how he changed his face? We've heard much and more about how the Faceless Men demand a king's ransom for a fee, and now we get to see it in action.

Additionally, Braavos is the most powerful of the free cities, the only slave free city, and the first to defy Valyria. What's not to love about that? It is a revolutionary city. And how cool was it to read the Cat of the Canals chapters? Awesome. Arya killing Dareon the singer from the nightswatch for talking about deserting? Cool shit. She still has Jon's back, even when she's "nobody". And the whole blindness thing? We get to see how the "magic" of the FM is really just strict training. Sure they can change their faces, but in the grand scheme of Arya's first assassination of the insurer, the face was the least important part of it. It's like having a magic trick revealed. And in this series of mystery and ambiguity, it was refreshing to have some real insight into something that seemed so magical and mysterious, and have it revealed to be merely the product of hard work and good planning.

Bratty? I see that as a big Arya complaint all the time? Compared to whom? Jon, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei, Stannis, Dany, Theon? Like they don't complain in their POVs. Arya hardly ever does, and she deals with her situation better than anyone else.

And unlike so many characters, she's actually taking the time to sit back and figure out what she needs to do to accomplish her goals. (kill her enemies she lists in prayer and reunite her pack). And she's doing something about it. Oh, I need to kill a bunch of people? Well in that case I'll go finish up my masters in assassination and get to it. She's been warging into cats in Braavos, imagine what her and Nymeria will be able to do back in Westeros. Dany who?

I bleed Arya all the way and maybe it's the booze talking but I just don't buy her chapters being boring. Her stuff in AFFC and ADwD were some of my favorite chapters in the entire series. That girl's got a real lust for life. In a world where so many just sit back and let shit happen to them and their families, Arya's got her sword drawn and shoving through a crowd to try to save her father's head from getting chopped off. And she's got a list of people to kill that were responsible for it, and she's learning how to do it with the FM. Gotta respect that.

In short: love Arya, hate the whole preteen ninja/ assassin storyline.

Of course, this is a fantasy book, and many people are bound to love it. For some it is fun, exciting, and empowering.

For me it's rather disappointing, though. First and foremost because Arya was probably the most vividly drawn female characters, and now she's going the line that I think is all too often tread in young adult novels today featuring ass kicking female heroines-- making her unbelievably strong/ heroic/ undefeatable.

Secondly, because I hate the faceless man storyline in and of itself. You noted some excellent reasons for finding this storyline compelling, and no doubt many are legitimately interested in the culture of Bravos. But for me it feels like sidtracking; a culture that could have (and should have) been left out of the books for the purposes of narrative streamlining and artistic merit, and perhaps included in some sort of extra "worldbuilding" books (like the Westeros encyclopedia that I've heard is coming out) or prequel novellas.

More than anything else, I find that the more I find out about the Faceless man culture, the less I want to know. Again, is probably fascinating for many. However, i feel as though it is one of those organizations that would have been far better left mysterious and slightly arcane, as so much magic in GRRM's world is. Seeing behind the scenes and all the silly ceremonies struck me as tantamount to witnessing how the rabbit is shoved into the magic hat before the show. It just doesn't hold the same magic anymore, now that you know.

At any rate, one thing I reject as ridiculous--"Arya is psychotic." This is ridiculous, and cannot be farther from the truth. Even as she is working as an assassin, Arya shows every trait that is not associated with psyhopathy-- empathy for others, a desire for social justice, ability to see beyond her own needs, etc. It seems funny to me that people more often denigrate Arya for her deeds than they do Tyrion or Jaime. Arya may have made some mistakes (Daeron, for instance) but the issue is that she was clearly trying to do the right thing, and was working for issues of greater social justice. When Tyrion taunts and possibly abuses a sex slave and Jaime threatens to kill a baby and intends to go through with it, they are acting for their own selfish reasons.

And she's got a list of people to kill that were responsible for it, and she's learning how to do it with the FM. Gotta respect that.

Interesting. I think Arya has many talents and should be allowed to use her considerable courage, fierceness, and growing fighting talent. However, I think the faceless man thing is the worst thing that's ever happened to her. It seems to me they are exploiting her, consciously or unconsciously, the way that LF is exploiting Sansa. Whether or not they really believe their "religion" of death (and I think they probably do) they are shaping her and molding her into a tool that makes her give up parts of herself, just as LF is doing with Sansa.

If I had another sister, I'd want her to be like Arya.

Agreed.

[Valkyrja]

In short: love Arya, hate the whole preteen ninja/ assassin storyline.

Of course, this is a fantasy book, and many people are bound to love it. For some it is fun, exciting, and empowering.

For me it's rather disappointing, though. First and foremost because Arya was probably the most vividly drawn female characters, and now she's going the line that I think is all too often tread in young adult novels today featuring ass kicking female heroines-- making her unbelievably strong/ heroic/ undefeatable.

Secondly, because I hate the faceless man storyline in and of itself. You noted some excellent reasons for finding this storyline compelling, and no doubt many are legitimately interested in the culture of Bravos. But for me it feels like sidtracking; a culture that could have (and should have) been left out of the books for the purposes of narrative streamlining and artistic merit, and perhaps included in some sort of extra "worldbuilding" books (like the Westeros encyclopedia that I've heard is coming out) or prequel novellas.

More than anything else, I find that the more I find out about the Faceless man culture, the less I want to know. Again, is probably fascinating for many. However, i feel as though it is one of those organizations that would have been far better left mysterious and slightly arcane, as so much magic in GRRM's world is. Seeing behind the scenes and all the silly ceremonies struck me as tantamount to witnessing how the rabbit is shoved into the magic hat before the show. It just doesn't hold the same magic anymore, now that you know.

At any rate, one thing I reject as ridiculous--"Arya is psychotic." This is ridiculous, and cannot be farther from the truth. Even as she is working as an assassin, Arya shows every trait that is not associated with psyhopathy-- empathy for others, a desire for social justice, ability to see beyond her own needs, etc. It seems funny to me that people more often denigrate Arya for her deeds than they do Tyrion or Jaime. Arya may have made some mistakes (Daeron, for instance) but the issue is that she was clearly trying to do the right thing, and was working for issues of greater social justice. When Tyrion taunts and possibly abuses a sex slave and Jaime threatens to kill a baby and intends to go through with it, they are acting for their own selfish reasons.

Interesting. I think Arya has many talents and should be allowed to use her considerable courage, fierceness, and growing fighting talent. However, I think the faceless man thing is the worst thing that's ever happened to her. It seems to me they are exploiting her, consciously or unconsciously, the way that LF is exploiting Sansa. Whether or not they really believe their "religion" of death (and I think they probably do) they are shaping her and molding her into a tool that makes her give up parts of herself, just as LF is doing with Sansa.

Agreed.

Beautifully stated, Queen Cersei!!!

As for people criticizing Arya's Braavos chapters, I know that I did so recently in the "Confessions" thread. But that was basically a place to 'confess' opinions that were not popular amongst most readers.

[Queen Cersei I]

Yup. :lol: If I wanted to read about teen-age female angst I'd read frickin' Judy Blume.

How dare you, madam! "Are You there, God-- it's me, Margaret" was a work of rare beauty and artistic merit!

Just as one cannot compare Stephen King to Shakespeare, one cannot seriously compare any other living author, no matter how talented, with the great Judy.

It's my position that Arya is more herself as an assassin-in-training than she was as a highborn Westerosi girl being pushed into the role of a vanilla obedient baby-factory wife of some random highborn boy.

More seriously-- I agree with you that life as a common highborn wife would have been horrible for Arya, and forced her to repress many aspects of her nature. However, I also feel that in the position she is currently in, working as a faceless man, she is having to repress and deny many aspects of her basic nature as well. She is forced to put a hold on her considerable empathy; her great sense of justice (when the Kindly Man tells her the story of the ugly little girl, Arya notes--correctly, imo-- that they should have killed the horrifically abusive father instead of his abused daughter.) And yet, as a faceless man, she has to kill whom she is told to kill. And sooner or later, this will come into contrast with her deep and innate sense of justice. (Not to mention her compassion.)

As a faceless man she gets to fight with weapons and be proactive. But she also does not get to call her own shots, morally speaking (if they say kill, she must kill); she is not free to go wherever and do whatever she pleases (she is indentured to the Faceless cult as surely as she would have been to her husband under different circumstances); she is deprived of both the love and the companionship with many diverse people she's been shown to crave since the beginning of the novel. (Sure, she can make contact with others, but not in the same way as before.) All in all, I'd say the Faceless cult is just as repressive of some aspects of Arya's personality as a conventional highborn marriage would have been to others. It's simply different sides of Arya's personality that are being repressed and denied. Overall, however, I cannot see the faceless man scenario leading to true happiness, fullfillment, and inner peace any more than a staid, conventional marriage would.

The FM, on the other hand, are actively teaching her to fill the position of one of the most powerful people in their world

But here's the question: is power what she wants?

It's my position that Arya is more herself as an assassin-in-training than she was as a highborn Westerosi girl being pushed into the role of a vanilla obedient baby-factory wife of some random highborn boy.

Again, I both agree and disagree. Your statement that Arya would have been repressed and held back as a typical highborn wife is utterly true. However, I see her current situation as far less fulfilling than you do.

When we first met her, Arya was straining against conventions that bound her as a highborn girl. As noted, this role led her to be encouraged by those around her to repress areas of her basic nature. Similarly, now she is supossed to be the cold ninja warrior assassin who worships death. Though she seems somewhat less frustrated than before, I definitely see some parts of her being repressed in this situation as well.

IMO, Arya has never not been herself-- she has actually retained her basic personality with it's many great trait and human failings throughout the book. However, neither the situation she was in to begin with or the one she is in now have offered perfect freedom or true happiness. I appreciate your argument that the social repressions of her society sort of kept her from fully becoming herself before; yet I'd argue that she's in the same scenario now, only with different constraints.

Fer the love all the gods, her mother betrothed her to a brand-x Frey without the least hesitation. I really hated Catelyn at that moment. :angry:

Well, temporary anger is fair enough-- however, in the long run, can you really blame Cat? Arya's mother betrothed her for a necessary alliance, which her brother or father would have done in a moment. It was necessary to ensure what they needed; this is the way every member of every reasonably successful noble family acts. Children-- particularly daughters-- are collateral and brood mares. Personally, I don't think Cat's promising her daughter under duress holds a candle to Hoster Tully's advertising Lysa Tully's "shame" and selling her off to the nearest ancient man after forcibly aborting her fetus. Or Cersei Lannister's father selling her to Robert. All women in Westeros-- good and bad, "exceptional" and average-- get a horribly raw deal.

[Errant Bard]

But here's the question: is power what she wants?

Oh yes. She wants power and the security that comes with power. She wants power and the possibilities that comes with power. She wants to be the Ghost in Harrenhal, she wants to take no shit from noone and drink people's blood if she so desires.

Of course she would prefer to be with Jon, if she had to choose, but she still wants power.

Like with Dany's and Sansa's arcs, people prefer action before character development, hence why Dany gets so much flak for ADWD. Murdering people is certainly action, but what does it say about character development and Arya's own mental state and moral compass? If it was real life, she'd be a borderline sociopath or at least a child soldier.

[...] they want to read about characters killing shit, burning cities, waving swords around and gaining leet magical abilities.

It's true, but I know I like the Arya chapters precisely because Arya is turning into a psychopath. Because I think Martin will actually subvert the archetype sightly in making her really morally bankrupt. A "princess with a heart of gold" thing which would gloss over the moral implications of revenge and murder would be more typical, but I trust and hope Martin isn't going that way.

It's something we have argued to death back before ADWD. Some people (who fled the board in shame, when ADWD proved them wrong) even argued that Arya was so much of a "pure" avenger (batman style, I guess), that she did not kill Dareon. Heh.

I know I have a thing for female characters who get some traditionally male power/characteristics, and that often overlaps with tomboys. I like reading that, it's like a guilty pleasure, but it would make Arya uninteresting to reduce her to that. The main draw of her character isn't linked with her sex (though her being female does put it in sharper relief. A boy learning to be an assassin would make even less people bat an eye) but with her moral arc, and this could have happened with any kid. (Bran with Hodor and Meera is creepy, I trust Arya and bran could have been swapped with no harm done to the story)

[Nymeria's]

Arya is a major player. You can hate her all you want, but I wouldn't put it past to her to raise an army, on her own, of FM to demolish Westeros. She might even commandeer one of Dany's dragons too. I think she has two more years until she looks like Lyanna Stark and then someone is going to have to tell Jon who his mother is before he falls in love with her. Arya looking like Lyanna Stark is important. I don't know how yet but I'm sure we will find out--and then we'll have to call her the Queen of Love and Beauty and no longer Horseface :laugh:

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya is a major player. You can hate her all you want, but I wouldn't put it past to her to raise an army, on her own, of FM to demolish Westeros. She might even commandeer one of Dany's dragons too. I think she has two more years until she looks like Lyanna Stark and then someone is going to have to tell Jon who his mother is before he falls in love with her. Arya looking like Lyanna Stark is important. I don't know how yet but I'm sure we will find out--and then we'll have to call her the Queen of Love and Beauty and no longer Horseface :laugh:

I used to think that she had just turned 12 but Artemis did the calculations and Arya might almost be 13. Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal. Arya may not have her face for an extended period of time though.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

How dare you, madam! "Are You there, God-- it's me, Margaret" was a work of rare beauty and artistic merit!

Which is exactly why I said I'd read Judy Blume if I wanted to read about female teen-age angst. However, as a person old enough to be the grandmother of a 13-year-old, (not that I am) I just don't give a rat's ass about Sansa's "character development."

More seriously-- I agree with you that life as a common highborn wife would have been horrible for Arya, and forced her to repress many aspects of her nature. However, I also feel that in the position she is currently in, working as a faceless man, she is having to repress and deny many aspects of her basic nature as well. She is forced to put a hold on her considerable empathy; her great sense of justice (when the Kindly Man tells her the story of the ugly little girl, Arya notes--correctly, imo-- that they should have killed the horrifically abusive father instead of his abused daughter.) And yet, as a faceless man, she has to kill whom she is told to kill. And sooner or later, this will come into contrast with her deep and innate sense of justice. (Not to mention her compassion.)

Here's what I see: Arya rejecting the education, behavior, clothing and future of a Westerosi lady, but Arya embracing the education, behavior and clothing (including a magically applied face) of a Faceless Man. The Kindly Old Man offers her many opportunities to leave the House of Black and White, but she refuses. IIRC, when the KOM tells her that she's to go to Izembaro to begin her apprenticeship she runs to get her belongings. She accepts the constraints of being a FM, at least outwardly. In Braavos Arya is doing what she wants and chooses to do. IMO any woman of that world who has the freedom and opportunity to do so is better off than a Queen.

As for her future as a Faceless Man – I think it's been clear since she arrived at the House of Black and White that she's got her own plans that she actively pursues. Whether her plans come to fruition is the dilemma faced by all of the characters in ASOIAF.

But here's the question: is power what she wants?

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

I think the answer is "yes," or at the very least, she wants an important and challenging position in life. I'd say being a FM fulfills those requirements. (And really, shame on Ned for even suggesting that she could marry a King when in reality she'd be lucky to get a lord or an heir.)

Well, temporary anger is fair enough-- however, in the long run, can you really blame Cat? Arya's mother betrothed her for a necessary alliance, which her brother or father would have done in a moment. It was necessary to ensure what they needed; this is the way every member of every reasonably successful noble family acts. Children-- particularly daughters-- are collateral and brood mares. Personally, I don't think Cat's promising her daughter under duress holds a candle to Hoster Tully's advertising Lysa Tully's "shame" and selling her off to the nearest ancient man after forcibly aborting her fetus. Or Cersei Lannister's father selling her to Robert. All women in Westeros-- good and bad, "exceptional" and average-- get a horribly raw deal.

*le sigh* Yes, I understand how the system works. My point is that the system stinks, as you acknowledge. Whenever someone states (or lectures) that the arranged marriage is a necessary fact of Westerosi life, all I can do is point to the examples you gave and others and repeat my mantra: look how well that worked out. Yeah, Cat got her son and army over the bridge, she also made a pact with a man who was obviously without honor and earned herself, her son and many others a knife in the back. Even I, a totally unspoiled first time reader of asoiaf could tell that making matches with Waldar Frey was going to result in a disaster, although I had no idea how bad it would be. So good going, Cat. <_<

[kephv]

Wow, you 1% of readers, you got told!

Seriously, Arya gets so little vituperation from readers, it's strange to see a post defending her...

The pointy end for all her foes! :fencing:

It's true, but I know I like the Arya chapters precisely because Arya is turning into a psychopath. Because I think Martin will actually subvert the archetype sightly in making her really morally bankrupt. A "princess with a heart of gold" thing which would gloss over the moral implications of revenge and murder would be more typical, but I trust and hope Martin isn't going that way.

I completely agree. Her spiral into depravity has always been one of the most interesting things about her character -- that and her mental state as she goes further into it. If she wants to climb to the top of her list, she's going to have to do it over piles of corpses -- innocent and not alike.

It's something we have argued to death back before ADWD. Some people (who fled the board in shame, when ADWD proved them wrong) even argued that Arya was so much of a "pure" avenger (batman style, I guess), that she did not kill Dareon. Heh.

I've come across a few of those old posts and can't understand the position. There's really no way that would've made sense, at all. That kill was really a turning point for her -- not because the others were completely fine, but because she really can't pull the whole self defence card there. Sure she claims it's because he deserted, but I think that's only an excuse she uses to justify it to herself and to the Kindly Man. If it's looked at more closely though, I think it becomes clear she killed him for reasons of pure spite and to advance herself in the group of killers she's with.

I used to think that she had just turned 12 but Artemis did the calculations and Arya might almost be 13. Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal. Arya may not have her face for an extended period of time though.

I think 13 is pushing it. Where's this post at, by the way?

Here's what I see: Arya rejecting the education, behavior, clothing and future of a Westerosi lady, but Arya embracing the education, behavior and clothing (including a magically applied face) of a Faceless Man. The Kindly Old Man offers her many opportunities to leave the House of Black and White, but she refuses. IIRC, when the KOM tells her that she's to go to Izembaro to begin her apprenticeship she runs to get her belongings. She accepts the constraints of being a FM, at least outwardly. In Braavos Arya is doing what she wants and chooses to do. IMO any woman of that world who has the freedom and opportunity to do so is better off than a Queen.

I agree. I think it just goes to show how much she wants power. She's willing to repress her personality and suffer the training to get what she's after. She may not like it, but of course, there's no opportunities like the one she has anywhere else in the world, so she's sticking with it.

[Woman of War]

By Queen Cersei:

At any rate, one thing I reject as ridiculous--"Arya is psychotic." This is ridiculous, and cannot be farther from the truth. Even as she is working as an assassin, Arya shows every trait that is not associated with psyhopathy-- empathy for others, a desire for social justice, ability to see beyond her own needs, etc.

By Errand Bard:

It's true, but I know I like the Arya chapters precisely because Arya is turning into a psychopath. Because I think Martin will actually subvert the archetype sightly in making her really morally bankrupt. A "princess with a heart of gold" thing which would gloss over the moral implications of revenge and murder would be more typical, but I trust and hope Martin isn't going that way.

You are both right imo

No, Arya is certainly not sociopathic so far, she has an intense interest in others, not only in relation to herself, not only what they do to her or how they see her, she does so far not instrumentalize people, she is genuinely interested in them as persons. Her empathy is not numbed yet. Not yet.

And yes, Arya may turn into a sociopath, deeply scarred by the horrible things that were done to her. And those she did herself. Yes, she made conscious descisions to kill, not only those who "deserve it" but as well those who happened to be in the way, like the guard at Harrenhall. And I am intensely interested in that development.

I have no interest in absolving her or making lame excuses for her here in this forum should she truly develop more sociopathic traits, because not evaluating the full spectrum of your favorite characters for the sake of "whitewashing" is always stupid. I am invested in her character and I will follow her wherever she goes.

And I hate the idea that Arya might only be interesting because she is a "tomboy" and offers action, that she only draws readers who are unable to deal with oh sooo complicated and sophisticated introspective female characters. And I have to seriously defend Cat here, she doesn' t need to be reduced to whatever "feminity". Her character is gripping, so close to life, full of antagonisms, errors and bravery, she lashes out, she makes serious mistakes etc., so rich as character. A mother and her own kind of warrior.

Arya here is in fact a character that has a lot of links to what happens in our RL world of today. She is a field study of how child soldiers everywhere in the world are instrumentalized by warlords, how they get brainwashed, how they are made to lose themselves, to function as killers for whatever ideology. And none of those children comes out of those experiences unharmed, if fact it would be highly unrealistic if Martin wrote it that way. She cannot simply reunite with her remaining siblings and take up life where it has been interrupted. We might soon see how she will react to sexual agression. She will be seriously damaged, will need a long process of support and healing if she survives at all. And she will certainly not settle down as Lady of whatever castle, smiling for whatever husband's guests. She'd simply explode after a time if she were so foolish to try that.

I loved Arya's Braavos chapters, I liked the small things at the harbour and even her time being blind.

[savethedirewolves]

By Queen Cersei:

By Errand Bard:

You are both right imo

No, Arya is certainly not sociopathic so far, she has an intense interest in others, not only in relation to herself, not only what they do to her or how they see her, she does so far not instrumentalize people, she is genuinely interested in them as persons. Her empathy is not numbed yet. Not yet.

And yes, Arya may turn into a sociopath, deeply scarred by the horrible things that were done to her. And those she did herself. Yes, she made conscious descisions to kill, not only those who "deserve it" but as well those who happened to be in the way, like the guard at Harrenhall. And I am intensely interested in that development.

I have no interest in absolving her or making lame excuses for her here in this forum should she truly develop more sociopathic traits, because not evaluating the full spectrum of your favorite characters for the sake of "whitewashing" is always stupid. I am invested in her character and I will follow her wherever she goes.

And I hate the idea that Arya might only be interesting because she is a "tomboy" and offers action, that she only draws readers who are unable to deal with oh sooo complicated and sophisticated introspective female characters. And I have to seriously defend Cat here, she doesn' t need to be reduced to whatever "feminity". Her character is gripping, so close to life, full of antagonisms, errors and bravery, she lashes out, she makes serious mistakes etc., so rich as character. A mother and her own kind of warrior.

Arya here is in fact a character that has a lot of links to what happens in our RL world of today. She is a field study of how child soldiers everywhere in the world are instrumentalized by warlords, how they get brainwashed, how they are made to lose themselves, to function as killers for whatever ideology. And none of those children comes out of those experiences unharmed, if fact it would be highly unrealistic if Martin wrote it that way. She cannot simply reunite with her remaining siblings and take up life where it has been interrupted. We might soon see how she will react to sexual agression. She will be seriously damaged, will need a long process of support and healing if she survives at all. And she will certainly not settle down as Lady of whatever castle, smiling for whatever husband's guests. She'd simply explode after a time if she were so foolish to try that.

I loved Arya's Braavos chapters, I liked the small things at the harbour and even her time being blind.

I completely agree with you, on both Cat and Arya. I've been struggling with this line of thought and couldn't put it into words :P. Well said!

[ARYa_Nym]

I think 13 is pushing it. Where's this post at, by the way?

She didn't post the data.

Oh and I believe she is 12 nearing 13 as of calculating the moon turns in Braavos...

Edit: There was a line where she was asked if she was hungry and she said yes but not for food. I think she does want knowledge and power.

I think she is very determined to learn the FM' ways even if she has to do things that she doesn't like. She noted at one point that she'd rather sew than learn languages in AFFC but by ADWD we learn that she's gotten much better.

[kephv]

She didn't post the data.

http://asoiaf.wester...f/page__st__400

Okay. I think I see what she's talking about. But I think a lot of the things in her Cat of the Canals chapter can be grouped together. How many, it's hard to say, but I don't think quite so many months have passed, as her Blind Girl chapter in Dance can really only be a certain number of months ahead of the Jon chapter in which the ship with the Hardhome slaves is first mentioned.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, so Arya fans aren't warmongering troglodytes, they're troglodytes with short attention spans and poor reading skills. Well, I'm glad that's cleared up!

Martyr mentality + use of too much hyerpbole = trolling.

In general, action oriented characters are easier for people to like since they run around and "do stuff", while observers, character who suffers, have limited agency or in general are dedicated more to character development as opposed to action are less well liked. May I remind you here of all the Cat and Sansa hate and all the Dany hate post ADWD?

If you feel this is wrong, please post your argument for why this type of characters are in fact better liked. I would very much like to see it.

[kephv]

Martyr mentality + use of too much hyerpbole = trolling.

In general, action oriented characters are easier for people to like since they run around and "do stuff", while observers, character who suffers, have limited agency or in general are dedicated more to character development as opposed to action are less well liked. May I remind you here of all the Cat and Sansa hate and all the Dany hate post ADWD?

If you feel this is wrong, please post your argument for why this type of characters are in fact better liked. I would very much like to see it.

Pretty much all the Cat and Dany hate I see has nothing to do with the lack of action in the arcs but generally in the decisions they make. Cat is constantly blamed for starting the war and Dany post Dance has people convinced she's a monster and would be a terrible ruler.

[Lyanna Stark]

Pretty much all the Cat and Dany hate I see has nothing to do with the lack of action in the arcs but generally in the decisions they make. Cat is constantly blamed for starting the war and Dany post Dance has people convinced she's a monster and would be a terrible ruler.

Which is partly my point. People cannot understand their decisions and predicaments since they are missing a lot of their character development (i.e. the boring bits inbetween where little to no action takes place). The stuff they end up doing people don't understand, or feel it's the wrong thing.

[ARYa_Nym]

In general, action oriented characters are easier for people to like since they run around and "do stuff", while observers, character who suffers, have limited agency or in general are dedicated more to character development as opposed to action are less well liked. May I remind you here of all the Cat and Sansa hate and all the Dany hate post ADWD?

If you feel this is wrong, please post your argument for why this type of characters are in fact better liked. I would very much like to see it.

I think that Arya hasn't done much especially in terms of the bigger plot which is why there have been complaints that she's irrelevant now. Dany made more plot relevant actions in ADWD than Arya did in AFFC/ADWD. Arya was mainly an observer then. The only active things she did was killing two nobodies. Dany rode Drogon for the first time which is a big accomplishment and Dorne was probably made into her enemy. She wasn't there when Quentyn got burned but there were complaints about how she treated him in her court.

[kephv]

I still think the complaints are mainly to do with general character dislike -- even characters like Brienne, for instance, who did see a lot of action, still received a lot of hate -- but I do agree that people tend to harp too much on the lack of action in the series of late.

Personally, I loved Arya's, Sansa's, and Sam's chapters in Feast, even though they weren't action packed. Dany's chapters in Dance were more problematic for me, not because of the lack of action (I liked seeing her development as a ruler), but because it felt like it lacked a satisfying conclusion. It really felt like she was just coming to a turning point in her last chapter when it abruptly ended -- but then that's one of my main complaints about Dance in general for a lot of the characters.

[keelhaul]

Which is partly my point. People cannot understand their decisions and predicaments since they are missing a lot of their character development (i.e. the boring bits inbetween where little to no action takes place). The stuff they end up doing people don't understand, or feel it's the wrong thing.

I strongly disagree with you here. Although I absolutely understand why Theon did the stuff he did, that really doesn't make him more likeable to me. I feel he did absolutely horrible things and when I evaluate my feelings towards him it's the actual deeds that matter. There are several ways to rationalize every choice anyone makes but as an observer, it's completely on you to evaluate whether you accept a rationalization. For the horribly stupid stuff Cat did I can accept no rationalization whatsoever. I understand her point and it's still horribly stupid and shortsighted. So to clarify: understanding a rationalization is not the same as accepting one.

A more correct statement on 'people' would be to say that it is usually hard to distinguish between empathy, pity and liking. It's absolutely possible to dislike a person but be able to empathize with her/him.