The Tad Williams Thread

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Any similarity between MS&T is purely at the most general and removed origins...

Don't take my word for it.

The SF Site: A Converstation With Geroge R. R. Martin

Here is one question that may be unfair but I'll ask it anyway. For those writers who don't know your work very well, which of your contemporaries do you think match your style closest.

* I don't know anybody who writes quite like me. There are other writers that readers would like if they like my work. Jack Vance... I used to strive to write like Jack but I don't think I succeeded. Tad William's fantasy series, that was very influential. It was good work. When I read his books, it was one of the things that got me to think of doing one of my own.

And Camaris and Selmy are both faithful, virtous knights that have been soiled by life. A very common fantasy archetype, they date from Arthurian legends at least.

Don't forget that both shamed knights flee to a foriegn country and disguise themselves... later to counsel the "rightful" ruler in the ways of warfare and chivalry.

And Bibinik/Syrio? Whaaaa? I don't see it beyond both being physically competent. Bibnik is if anything a bad D&D cliche come wandering in.

Besides their strangely formed grammar, both often click thier teeth and say "Just So."

[Lord Stormbringer]

There is a very large difference between being an influence and being so uncreative as to begin lifting main characters on a one for one basis. I don't doubt that MS&T did provide a major impetus towards Martin's writing of ASoIaF; he admits it after all. What I don't think, and he certainly does not say, is that he wanted to do one just like it.

There are some major differences between the series after all and the similarities are not that tight. A lot of them are pretty broad and have a lot to do with social histories. A kingdom breaks up after a king dies, happened to many hundreds of countries. Competing houses, again a common occurence. And the ancient evil awakes and we must defeat it, cliched!

Don't forget that both shamed knights flee to a foriegn country and disguise themselves... later to counsel the "rightful" ruler in the ways of warfare and chivalry.

True but the stories are all so far removed. One does so with deliberate intention, to make up for what he percieves as a shameful past. The other does it because of an accident and the teaching is done primarily by accident.

Besides their strangely formed grammar, both often click thier teeth and say "Just So."

I'll concede that. However that's at best a tiny similarity.

[davos]

I heartily recommend M, S, & T. While it is not as good as ASoIaF it is still exceptional fantasy and well worth the read despite some pacing problems.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tad Williams is great. Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn features one of the best-handled prophecy storylines in fantasy, as well as a main villain who arguably owes more to Feanor than Sauron.

Williams has also written a novella called Caliban's Hour, which re-tells Shakespeare's Tempest from the viewpoint of Caliban. It too is very good, and like M,S,&T functions as a sort of critique of an earlier literary work.

[Bastmosis]

Are you referring to Kim Stanley Robinson's? If so, I agree. I wasn't aware Tad Williams wrote a Mars trilogy :/

I was indeed ... AFAIK Kim Stanley Robinson (is Kim a woman BTW, or just a man with identity problems?) is the only person to have written a 'Mars Trilogy', which, as I have noted previously, could just have been 'Mars' the book and better for it.

[High Septon]

I agree with most others here, Williams is good, if a bit slow at times. I actually liked the ending of MS&T. It was a nice twist.

I've only read two books of Otherland, the first was really promising, but the second seemed to be more about bizarre cyber-worlds than advancement in the story.

[GreatPretender]

slight spoiler

Tad Williams MS+T can be hard going at times. He does seem to get bogged down but I think in terms of fantasy it is a good series. I dont think his worldbuilding was anything exceptional but he does put a nice spin on some fantasy cliches like the Sithi. I personally found the books hard work but at the end felt it was worth it if only for the bit at Naglimund when the Red Hand came and said "Where is the Lord of the house of a thousand nails" that bit was brilliantly written and gave me a little shiver.

[Werthead]

Williams is a pretty good author. Unlike GRRM and even RJ, however, his books come with a LOT of padding. MST could have been a lot shorter and with Otherland you could have simply cut out a third of the episodes in the network (many of which were self-contained) and shortened the series by at least one novel. War of the Flowers shows he can do a good story in a shorter space of time, so why he doesn't just do that I don't know.

I think saying Williams is a bad author is just plain daft. Compared to Goodking, Eddings or Brooks, Williams is great. In terms of writing skills I'd put him ahead of RJ as well, although his worldbuilding isn't as good. As bad as Williams' pacing is, it's not reached WoT levels as yet. I think RJ's pure storytelling and consistent invention in the earlier books outclass Williams though. Williams sometimes pauses, hatches a big grin, and seems to invite the reader to behold his genius at say, the whole idea of Otherland, whilst before he lost the plot Jordan would mention a big new idea like the Portal Stones or T'A'R, use it a couple of times, and then steamroll past it to the next idea. Martin and Erikson are both better though.

Kim Stanley Robinson is a bloke. Bit of a California hippy, but undeniably a bloke. I think 'Kim' was a popular name to give to blokes from the 1950s before it became more a woman's name (although that comes from it also being a shortened version of Kimberly). Horror writer Kim Newman is also a bloke. A quick look on Wikipedia does confirm that there are more women then men with the name though.

[Galactus]

And the ancient evil awakes and we must defeat it, cliched!

You do realize this is what appears to be happening in ASOIAF as well, right?

Though one similarity is that in both cases the "Evil" takes the form of cold.

MS&T is good, solid fantasy. Sometimes exceptional, often dragging, but worth the read. As many other series the minor characters are very much more fascinating than the main ones.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

There is a very large difference between being an influence and being so uncreative as to begin lifting main characters on a one for one basis. . .

Oh, I agree. I wouldn't dare say that Martin's work is derivative of Williams. Just that Martin includes a plethora of specific and small similarities to Williams (and many others besides Williams), which under much scrutiny, appear to be unmistakable tributes, a tip of the hat, if you will, from one author to another.

I think that, by including these little clues, Martin is jokingly saying to us: "Did you read that book? Did you like that part? So did I."

[Calibandar]

True. Same way he does with Jack Vance I think.

Speaking of Vance, now that's an author I have trouble getting into. It's his style really, it just seems too breezy and lightweight to me. I read a bit of Lyonesse and it seemed as if he was writing in summary form, when actually he wasn't supposed to be. It felt.....distant.

[Ser Illin' Pain]

You do realize this is what appears to be happening in ASOIAF as well, right?

Though one similarity is that in both cases the "Evil" takes the form of cold.

MS&T is good, solid fantasy. Sometimes exceptional, often dragging, but worth the read. As many other series the minor characters are very much more fascinating than the main ones.

But the "ancient evil awakes and we must defeat it" theme was with us from the prologue of AGoT. And I dare say its a theme essential to any fantasy series. Without that plot all you have is a bunch of medieval characters and some fantastical beings running around trying to kill each other. While that's cool for a bit, it doesn't become epic until the big showdown with some supernatural force.

[Wouter]

True. Same way he does with Jack Vance I think.

Speaking of Vance, now that's an author I have trouble getting into. It's his style really, it just seems too breezy and lightweight to me. I read a bit of Lyonesse and it seemed as if he was writing in summary form, when actually he wasn't supposed to be. It felt.....distant.

I had the same feeling with the Lyonesse trilogy. A great plot and all that, but indeed it seemed so distant compared to other works. We were told what happened to the characters, but we never got the feeling to "be" the character, as one can in GRRM's books (or even Jordan's and Williams').

M,S&T is a pretty good series imo, allthough a bit too slow/tedious at parts.

[Werthead]

I love Vance. Very clever plotting and frequently hilarious (moreso in Dying Earth than in Lyonesse though). His use of language and wordplay is ahead of any other writer I've ever read. He also achieves the impossible by getting you to root for the amoral anti-hero in Eyes of the Overworld and Cugel's Saga (Dying Earth 2 & 3). That said he's not really an epic, serious writer like Williams or GRRM. I think he's particularly not fond of warfare scenes, preferring to describe wars from an on-high, remote position. He's much better with characters. But his writing skills easily equal GRRM's, it's just that they're aimed in a different direction.

[Reposado]

il give him a solid recomendation although i feel shadowmarch is a notch below his previous work. he was my second favorite after martin until a few years ago. ms&t is pretty far back in my memory although i remember liking it a lot.

otherland is very good,

especially the way he ties the sam charcter into patroclus, who ive always felt was a the original model for all the sams.(ie.gamgee, tarly)

[Seventh Pup]

Perhaps I am in the minority but I actually like the pace of Williams books. They are tapestry writing done right. As opposed to Jordan who does it very, very wrong. MST is by far my favorite, it was the first and only series since LotR that when I finished it I had separation pains. (I know I'll have those for ASOIaF too). Williams writing is very evolved, and very detailed, but very engaging at the same time. His plots are believable, and his characters wonderful. To anyone who enjoys Martin I would strongly recommend Williams. (And if you like Sci Fi I recommend the Otherland series which is also amazing).

[needle]

Only read Otherland, the first one. it was ..okay, but no desire to read more. Lack of any memorable characters puts me off. And the cyver stuff is done better by others IMO.

[Pellegrina]

On the recommendation of sundry board members, I'm currently giving Memory, Sorrow and Thorn a chance, but I'm finding The Dragonbone Chair really difficult to get into. The names seem to have little rhyme or reason to them, there's a lot of infodumping, Simon seems designed to irritate anyone over the age of 14, the writing is flabby and uneven, and he seems to be just making things up for the sake of it, rather than telling a story. Agreed, GRRM is a hard act to follow, but I don't ordinarily mind slow plots so I'm wondering how long to give the book before deciding it and I aren't going to get along... Advice anyone?

[Maltaran]

The Dragonbone Chair does start off slow. Once Simon meets Binabik, it picks up in pace. If you're still struggling after then, you should probably give up. Williams has a problem with slow starts generally, Otherland is the same.

[Pellegrina]

The Dragonbone Chair does start off slow. Once Simon meets Binabik, it picks up in pace. If you're still struggling after then, you should probably give up. Williams has a problem with slow starts generally, Otherland is the same.

Thanks for the tip!

*riffles through book*

*wails* But that's not for another 230 pages of redundant and tautologous adjectives and adverbs!