Jaime is the most honorable man in Westeros

[Buckwheat]

Cersei is just trying to absolve herself of guilt. There was no "other way" to silence Bran. Or do you really think that he would choose to keep such information from his family because a couple of strangers he heard nothing but bad things about told him to?

Lancel, Osmund and Moonboy were lies on Cersei's part, not Jaime's.

Brandon may have kept silent if they threatened him to do something horrible otherwise. Sure, that would be dishonourable as well.

There really was no way they could get out of the situation without being dishonourable, because, well, they were just caught doing something dishonourable in the first place. I can still not see what exactly is there that makes Jaime honourable in anbody's eyes.

[Direwolf Lager]

Jaime IS selfless. He got into the Kingsguard only because he wanted to do what Cersei wanted him to do, and he was nice to Tyrion despite Cersei hating him for it.

i like jaime also, but your views on him are a bit delusional

[FatCatOberyn]

Brandon may have kept silent if they threatened him to do something horrible otherwise. Sure, that would be dishonourable as well.

There really was no way they could get out of the situation without being dishonourable, because, well, they were just caught doing something dishonourable in the first place. I can still not see what exactly is there that makes Jaime honourable in anbody's eyes.

And you honestly think that would have kept Bran's mouth shut for good? He would just wait until they left before he told his father, and even if he didn't, he'd grow up and be able to ruin them with that piece of information whenever he wishes.

They were caught doing something unconventional, not dishonorable.

[Castel]

I just don't think that's the case. And even if it was, where's the justice in them both having to give up everything they have just to be with one another? Jaime already gave up on owning land just to be closer to Cersei.

He might have gotten the three kids killed. But due to his lack of caution, not morality.

True. It's not fair, which is why I struggle to decide here. But at the end of the day Jaime created a situation where kids could end up dead, even if we pretend that the only place he would ever have been caught was in Winterfell (unlikely). But whatever the case, it certainly wasn't honorable by Westerosi standards.

There's another thing to consider though, they are defrauding Tywin. His support comes with the implicit understanding that they will fulfill certain duties, they fail at those.

[Buckwheat]

And you honestly think that would have kept Bran's mouth shut for good? He would just wait until they left before he told his father, and even if he didn't, he'd grow up and be able to ruin them with that piece of information whenever he wishes.

They were caught doing something unconventional, not dishonorable.

How is having sex against his vows of celibacy and her marriage vows, committing high treason against the king, not being dishonourable?

[Castel]

And you honestly think that would have kept Bran's mouth shut for good? He would just wait until they left before he told his father, and even if he didn't, he'd grow up and be able to ruin them with that piece of information whenever he wishes.

They were caught doing something unconventional, not dishonorable.

It was hugely dishonorable, at least two vows were being broken. Something being morally okay in general =/= something being honourable in this specific case.

[FatCatOberyn]

True. It's not fair, which is why I struggle to decide here. But at the end of the day Jaime created a situation where kids could end up dead, even if we pretend that the only place he would ever have been caught was in Winterfell (unlikely). But whatever the case, it certainly wasn't honorable by Westerosi standards.

There's another thing to consider though, they are defrauding Tywin. His support comes with the implicit understanding that they will fulfill certain duties, they fail at those.

It's not like they exactly had a choice. He's their father, not their business partner.

How is having sex against his vows of celibacy and her marriage vows, committing high treason against the king, not being dishonourable?

Cersei didn't choose to get married, if she could have chosen who to marry, she would have married Jaime and he never would have taken the vows of celibacy in the first place. And since the treason against the king comes out of Cersei's vows being broken, vows she was forced into taking, I don't see it as dishonorable.

[Grimwolfe]

if cersei didnt corrupt him then jaime would have been the Barristan/Arthur Dayne of his generation

[Castel]

if cersei didnt corrupt him then jaime would have been the Barristan/Arthur Dayne of his generation

Funnily enough the thing that really fucked Jaime was totally independent of Cersei. In fact she was in Casterly Rock when it happened.

[Winter's Knight]

if cersei didnt corrupt him then jaime would have been the Barristan/Arthur Dayne of his generation

She didn't corrupt him. Their affection for each other was mutual.

[FatCatOberyn]

if cersei didnt corrupt him then jaime would have been the Barristan/Arthur Dayne of his generation

Funnily enough the thing that really fucked Jaime was totally independent of Cersei. In fact she was in Casterly Rock when it happened.

True, but he never would have joined the Kingsguard if it wasn't for Cersei. And I wouldn't say he was corrupted by her. They were both driven to desperate acts because the society they lived in frowned upon the kind of relationship they had.

[Buckwheat]

It's not like they exactly had a choice. He's their father, not their business partner.

Cersei didn't choose to get married, if she could have chosen who to marry, she would have married Jaime and he never would have taken the vows of celibacy in the first place. And since the treason against the king comes out of Cersei's vows being broken, vows she was forced into taking, I don't see it as dishonorable.

Her not choosing to get married to Robert does not change the fact that what they were doing was dishonourable. What could have happened before is not important in this matter, I think. The fact was that they were committing treason and breaking their vows, which can simply not be talked of as honourable, regardless if it was wrong, right, legal or illegal.

[Buckwheat]

True, but he never would have joined the Kingsguard if it wasn't for Cersei. And I wouldn't say he was corrupted by her. They were both driven to desperate acts because the society they lived in frowned upon the kind of relationship they had.

Funnily enough, the kind of relationship they had would be frowned upon in most societies one can think of, including our civilisation of 21th century. Just saying.

[FatCatOberyn]

Her not choosing to get married to Robert does not change the fact that what they were doing was dishonourable. What could have happened before is not important in this matter, I think. The fact was that they were committing treason and breaking their vows, which can simply not be talked of as honourable, regardless if it was wrong, right, legal or illegal.

I beg to differ. If a robber comes to me, steals my wallet, and forces me at gunpoint to swear not to shoot him in the back as he's making his escape, I don't believe I'm being dishonorable by shooting him. When there is no alternative to making an oath, I believe that nullifies the oath itself.

Funnily enough, the kind of relationship they had would be frowned upon in most societies one can think of, including our civilisation of 21th century. Just saying.

True, our own civilization is hardly free of prejudice.

[Castel]

Funnily enough, the kind of relationship they had would be frowned upon in most societies one can think of, including our civilisation of 21th century. Just saying.

And? I can say the same about Renly's relationship, it doesn't always make it right.

[Buckwheat]

I beg to differ. If a robber come to me, steals my wallet, and forces me at gunpoint to swear not to shoot him in the back as he's making his escape, I don't believe I'm being dishonorable by shooting him. When there is no alternative to making an oath, I believe that nullifies the oath itself.

True, our own civilization is hardly free of prejudice.

That was just the way their society worked. Cersei was raised to know that she would be married to some man her father would choose for her and she probably knew she had to accept it. I do not think she was threatened into it or something similar. I do not believe such circumstances nullify the oath.

If Cat chaeted on Eddard and passed her illegitimate children as the heirs to Winterfell, would she act honourably?

I did not want to point out that our civilisation was free of prejudice. I wanted to point out that incest is generally frowned upon because it is unnatural.

[Buckwheat]

And? I can say the same about Renly's relationship, it doesn't always make it right.

I do not know what you took from my comment, I was not trying to comment on the society, but on their relationship. It was brother-sister incest, which is unhealthy and most of people would be disgusted by it. The children of such union are likelier to be affected by diseases, that is why nature made people feel almost universally disgusted by it.

[FatCatOberyn]

That was just the way their society worked. Cersei was raised to know that she would be married to some man her father would choose for her and she probably knew she had to accept it. I do not think she was threatened into it or something similar. I do not believe such circumstances nullify the oath.

If Cat chaeted on Eddard and passed her illegitimate children as the heirs to Winterfell, would she act honourably?

I did not want to point out that our civilisation was free of prejudice. I wanted to point out that incest is generally frowned upon because it is unnatural.

I don't see how Cat passing her illegitimate childern as the heirs to Winterfell would have been wrong in such a situation. The system ignored her wishes by forcing her to marry a man she did not want to, so she has the right to ignore the system's laws of heredity. I think the abuse Cersei suffered at Robert's hands gives her only more right to do so.

[DurararaFTW]

Jaime killed the king, screws the queen, personally makes sure the king's heir is never born and would reflectd many times that he would gladly kill another king if ever he should find out about the last two things. And he screws the queen with a sleeping king in the room, so it's not like he's going out of his way to make sure this doesn't happen. Despite all this, he insist on staying Kingsguard. There are more honourable ways to go about this.

[Castel]

Jaime killed the king, screws the queen, personally makes sure the king's heir is never born and would reflectd many times that he would gladly kill another king if ever he should find out about the last two things. And he screws the queen with a sleeping king in the room, so it's not like he's going out of his way to make sure this doesn't happen. Despite all this, he insist on staying Kingsguard. There are more honourable ways to go about this.

I doubt there is much he can do about this lol.