If Westeros is as big as South America or China why are the armies so tiny?

[total1402]

Hi everybody. First post.

I was on one of the maps of the world and I realised that Westeros is actually a continent. I always assumed it was no bigger than Britain. I kinda assumed that because the biggest army is a 100,000 and thats from half of Westeros; including its most populated areas. Most others seem to only have 20,000 like the Veil of Arryn. Which doesn't make much sense. Really the battles should be closer in scale to Chinas Warring states period where some armies really did reach a million soldiers. I understand that no medieval European army ever got that big and GRR is representing the med world but thats because there wasn't a (real) Empire in Europe at the time. Because of the sheer size of Westeros its portrayel doesn't seem to match a continent sized kingdom. I mean we're told that one of the regions is entirely devastated and most of its people put to the sword. Yet this region (spoiler its where most of the fighting takes place) is as big as France and Germany put together. I mean that conflict is bloody, but thats 30 years war bloody.

[danm_999]

The answer lies in food production. Without good food production, you don't have many people to field an army, and it's impossible to field a big army because there's not enough food for them.

Yes, Westeros is very big, but size isn't everything. It's got very poor land whereas continental Europe is mostly fertile land. Westeros' fertile land makes up a much smaller percentage of its whole. Take another example; Australia is about as big as Europe, but it's only home to 22 million people, because most of it is desert.

So look at Westeros. The North makes up half of Westeros, but it's very sparsely populated, much of it is bog, and its too cold to grow many types of crops. In Europe, places the North is inspired by (Scotland, maybe Scandinavia) do not take up anywhere near the same amount of land. Similarly, there are almost no deserts in Europe, since it's generally too far North for hot deserts, too far South for cold deserts. Not so for Westeros, Dorne accounts for about a fifth of Southern land, and it's covered in desert. Similarly, the Lands of Almost Winter are cold deserts.

The other reason Westeros does not support a large population or large armies is because it's seasons are irregular. Without regular seasons, food supplies are going to be very unreliable, meaning you'll get cyclical die-offs of large swathes of the population anytime a Winter goes longer than the food stores allow. Conversely on Earth, Europe usually had a very good idea about how long Winter would last, when it would come, and how much food to set aside, meaning seasonal famine is less common. Sure, famines would occur, and sometimes a Winter would come early or arrive late, and a harvest would be ruined, but that was the exception, not the norm.

As to your point about the Chinese warring state period, apart from more arable land and regular seasons, also consider that China had much more advanced farming techniques than Westeros has, and that China has access to rice, which is a very versatile crop that can grow in a very diverse selection of soil.

[Darth Rivers]

Wrong. Both of you.

The answer is logistics.

To keep an army in the field, you must be able to supply it with food and water. You must be able to keep it together, and command it. That requires lots of effort and resources. Armies tend to lay waste to the area they are summoned, even if it is friendly - they pick the land clean for supplies. Many non-combatants also accompany armies, leading to further difficulties. That prevented huge armies, along with the fact that the feudal system does not, in fact, draft the average population. Armies were a mix of nobles and landed knights bringing with them paid retainers, militias organized by towns and free landholders, who weren't subject to feudal overlord. So the total population of Westeros, which is easily tens of millions, has no effect on the total sizes of armies.

[hombay]

It's for a number of reasons.

[LordDolorousEdd]

I think it is a mix of both the first two reply's. I really like the the mentioning about the season stuffing up food supply because that has alway seemed to me to be a huge problem.

[danm_999]

Wrong. Both of you.

The answer is logistics.

The logistical problem of keeping an army fielded with an insecure food supply was exactly my answer...

I just elucidated why there was a logistical problem.

Good food production is necessary to fielding large armies, or supporting large populations. We just worded it differently.

[Free Northman]

The only misconception here is the idea that Westeros has a low population. It does not. It has a population as large as that of the entire Medieval Europe - about 40 million.

That still gives it a low population density compared to medieval Europe - seeing as Westeros has a much large surface area than Europe - but it nevertheless has a population about 20 times as big as that of medieval England.

The armies are called small, yet the 40,000 men that can be raised on average by each of the Seven Kingdoms is about 3 times as large as the average English or French army from the Middle Ages.

Which can be interpreted as each of the Seven Kingdoms having on average roughly 3 times the population of Medieval England.

The armies are small, because you can only raise about 1% of your population as an army, during that period. And considering the massive distances involved, the logistics of moving and supporting such an army on lengthy campaigns probably decreases that ratio even further.

But the armies are very large compared to the real Middle Ages. Remember that this is a European based setting, not the densely populated Chinese based society with its much higher population and army sizes.

[gougef]

Wrong. Both of you.

The answer is logistics.

Isn't that what UPS is for? :dunno:

[LordDolorousEdd]

Also the 20,000 armies are ones raised quickly when banners are called.

I am fairly sure the lannisters where later able to rally a second host of equal size which robb quickly smashed.

[KC_Accidental]

Some historians theorise that the Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae was 1,000,000 strong but the common argument against that is the logistics of supplying and maintaining an army that size. So as others have pointed out supply and demand is a huge factor in having a huge army.

[total1402]

True, Westeros like the Veil n the North n Martell are quite barren. But regions like the Tyrell lands which are meant to be very fertile could still support a huge number of landed knights, much bigger than France n Germany combined. Plus not all knights are landed, you have hedge knights and I think the Freys are mentioned as using peasant soldiers to boost their numbers. I wouldn't say the logistics of early modern armies were that bad. Its not just the royal army its all the bannermen who come with it. I mean, if an island like Tarth is nearly as big as Ireland that kinda puts it into perspective. Some of the Bannermen should have the manpower of most real-world medieval states. I don't think late medieval, early renaissance logistics were that bad. You have men like Petyre Baelish who can bounce funds around which was crucial in rulers getting really big armies during the Early Modern Period. Plus I don't think they've mentioned the impracticalities of raising large armies, my impression from the books is that they were using everyone they could get. When the Septon with Brienne talks about broken men, its very much implied that the bulk of the armies are just well-armed peasant militia or possibly small farmers (yeomen). Issues like money and grain never really came into it unless they were besieging somewhere like Riverrun.

Also China didn't actually make major use of rice during the warring states period. They devloped that when they colonised the sub-tropical South during the Song Dynasty (middle ages) until then China had a lot less people and grew grain like Europeans. In fact if you compare Imperial Rome to Imperial China they actually had very similar standing armies; before you count vassal n conscripts. About 250,000 each. Which in fairness, is actually very close to Westeros armies, if you consider feudal troops to be roughly equivalent to standing armies.

Stark-20,000

Veil-20,000

Riverlands-20,000

Lannister-40,000

Tyrell and Beratheon-100,000

Martell-50,000

So at least, oh, 250,000 soldiers would you believe it. :cool4:

How many people do you think have died in the Riverlands if they're as big as portrayed.

[Ser Flowers]

The only misconception here is the idea that Westeros has a low population. It does not. It has a population as large as that of the entire Medieval Europe - about 40 million.

That still gives it a low population density compared to medieval Europe - seeing as Westeros has a much large surface area than Europe - but it nevertheless has a population about 20 times as big as that of medieval England.

The armies are called small, yet the 40,000 men that can be raised on average by each of the Seven Kingdoms is about 3 times as large as the average English or French army from the Middle Ages.

Which can be interpreted as each of the Seven Kingdoms having on average roughly 3 times the population of Medieval England.

The armies are small, because you can only raise about 1% of your population as an army, during that period. And considering the massive distances involved, the logistics of moving and supporting such an army on lengthy campaigns probably decreases that ratio even further.

But the armies are very large compared to the real Middle Ages. Remember that this is a European based setting, not the densely populated Chinese based society with its much higher population and army sizes.

I would like to point out that this may be the population during the beginning of AGoT but you have to remember it has been summer for around 10 years at this time. When winter finally comes, half of the population will die from starvation or exposure.

[Lady of Shalott]

I would like to point out that this may be the population during the beginning of AGoT but you have to remember it has been summer for around 10 years at this time. When winter finally comes, half of the population will die from starvation or exposure.

Not to mention the plague greyscale.

[Free Northman]

Not to mention the plague greyscale.

Indeed. I expect massive depopulation to occur in the near future. As I said before, the South needs to gets its equivalent scourge when the Others and Winter hit the North.

And I believe that population leveler will be the plague brought by Connington and his armies.

50% of the South's population to be gone by the end of all of this, is my estimate.

[total1402]

Indeed. I expect massive depopulation to occur in the near future. As I said before, the South needs to gets its equivalent scourge when the Others and Winter hit the North.

And I believe that population leveler will be the plague brought by Connington and his armies.

50% of the South's population to be gone by the end of all of this, is my estimate.

OMG you're right. The Gods do not like people who insult the Targarians do they!

Jamie has the hand which killed one cut off

Rob gets killed

Ned gets killed

Gregor Clegane killed

The Young Pretender brings the plague for daring to take the throne.

Many pretenders in general

Do you think the prophecy of 'wake from stone' has some relevence to the plague?

I was referring to pre crazy Westeros. You know, when the dead weren't rising and stone lepors taking their vengence on those without the disease.

[Gannicus]

Is that what GRRM said, China and South America?

My vision of Westeros is a continent similar to an elongated Europe.

The Wall : Northern Scandinavia

Winterfell: Oslo/Northern UK

The Kneck: Denmarkish

Riverlands : Amsterdamish

Kingslanding/Casterly Rock : Munich/Paris

Highgarden : Southern France/Tuscany

Dorne: Southern Spain/North Africa

[Free Northman]

Is that what GRRM said, China and South America?

My vision of Westeros is a continent similar to an elongated Europe.

The Wall : Northern Scandinavia

Winterfell: Oslo/Northern UK

The Kneck: Denmarkish

Riverlands : Amsterdamish

Kingslanding/Casterly Rock : Munich/Paris

Highgarden : Southern France/Tuscany

Dorne: Southern Spain/North Africa

You place Westeros too far to the North.

The Wall is more or less on equivalent latitude to the border between the United States and Canada. Kind of where the Great Lakes are.

Meaning it is approximately on the 50th degree northern latitude, running through European countries like Germany, Austria, and the Czech Republic.

The North is therefore equivalent to the Northern United States and Germany, not to Scandinavia and Canada. Scandinavia and Canada are in fact the equivalent of the Lands beyond the Wall, which are not Arctic as depicted in the TV series, but are in fact covered by the dense Haunted Forest for as far as 600-800 miles north of the Wall.

The Riverlands are equivalent to southern England, the Reach to southern France and southern Italy, and Dorne is equivalent to North Africa (and a bit of Spain).

Overall, you need to move your locations south by about 600 miles or so.

[total1402]

Is that what GRRM said, China and South America?

My vision of Westeros is a continent similar to an elongated Europe.

The Wall : Northern Scandinavia

Winterfell: Oslo/Northern UK

The Kneck: Denmarkish

Riverlands : Amsterdamish

Kingslanding/Casterly Rock : Munich/Paris

Highgarden : Southern France/Tuscany

Dorne: Southern Spain/North Africa

In terms of size, Westeros is closer to China or South America; it also has much more unbroken land mass for farming like China. The amount of arable land which could be farmed should mean a huge number of knights. Especially when you consider that even a dry Southern European/Near Asian Kingdom like Byzantium ( Eastern Roman Empire depending on your opinion) could get 70,000 men (I think) to fight the Turks at Manzikert. That was just from Greece, Bulgaria, Asia Minor and Armenia. Very big for a medieval kingdom but actually very small compared to Westeros.

Actually is there a Constantinople in this series? Volantis, seemed to be having a new Rome vibe I suppose. Braavos is so obviously Venice its not even funny. I wonder if the ex-slave city might attack Volantis with its fleet gone? They did oversee the signing of that treaty. Plus it would parrallel the 1204 4th Crusade where Venice KO'd the Roman Empire.

[Seadog]

I would say that 20,000 men, some mounted, all well armed is actually a pretty large force in a medieval context.

[Free Northman]

In terms of size, Westeros is closer to China or South America; it also has much more unbroken land mass for farming like China. The amount of arable land which could be farmed should mean a huge number of knights. Especially when you consider that even a dry Southern European/Near Asian Kingdom like Byzantium ( Eastern Roman Empire depending on your opinion) could get 70,000 men (I think) to fight the Turks at Manzikert.

The consensus seems to be that Martin was speaking loosely, and that Westeros is in fact the approximate LENGTH of South America, but on average less than half its width - Westeros is seldom more than 1000 miles wide - roughly the distance between King's Landing and Casterly Rock - while South America is much wider than that for much of it's length.

So Westeros probably has about half the surface area of South America or slightly less, but it is still about as big as the entire Europe. VERY big, compared to Britain, which people have mistaken it for due to its rough shape.