If Westeros is as big as South America or China why are the armies so tiny?

[Yuri Targaryen]

I have already provided a likely explanation for the summer snows in a previous thread.

Basically the idea is that the normal annual seasons are still trying to force their way through the magical force that causes multi year winters or summers.

Put differently, the unnaturally long seasons are due to some magical force that brings for example 5 years of Winter or Summer. Martin has confirmed that this is a magical force that prevents the normal seasons from occurring.

But while this "blanket of magical Summer" holds sway over Westeros, the planet is still orbiting its sun once a year, and the normal seasons are still trying to force their way through the magic. Hence, while the magical summer might still be continuing, the normal winter has arrived, and sometimes may succeed in partly forcing itself through the magical shield, thus resulting in some summer snows in the North.

In the same way, we are told that there are "spirit summers" in the depths of a Long Winter, where the temparutures can rise so much that a full harvest can actually be grown before the cold sets in again.

This to me explains the snowfalls in Summer and the warm spells in Winter perfectly.

Therefore, the fact that snow falls in Summer should not be used as an indication of the North's latitude, as it would not make sense in the slightest.

Martin has stated that the Haunted Forest is like the area around Michigan. That has to place the North itself much further south than that.

The arctic treeline hundreds of miles north of the Wall merely confirms this.

The point is, the North is not equivalent to Scandinavia. It is the Lands beyond the Wall that are the equivalent of Scandinavia. The North is equivalent to areas to the south of Scandinavia, like Germany.

Northman, I've read your explanation elsewhere. It sounds good. However, what bothers me is the lack of any indication people get warm in the North or beyond the Wall. Germany has pretty hot summers and that doesn't seem the case in the North. I don't know, but they seem to have in a "summer summer", a colder summer than northern Scottish ones.

[Victaerys]

I have already provided a likely explanation for the summer snows in a previous thread.

Basically the idea is that the normal annual seasons are still trying to force their way through the magical force that causes multi year winters or summers.

Put differently, the unnaturally long seasons are due to some magical force that brings for example 5 years of Winter or Summer. Martin has confirmed that this is a magical force that prevents the normal seasons from occurring. But while this "blanket of magical Summer" holds sway over Westeros, the planet is still orbiting its sun once a year, and the normal seasons are still trying to force their way through the magic. Hence, while the magical summer might still be continuing, the normal winter has arrived, and sometimes may succeed in partly forcing itself through the magical shield, thus resulting in some summer snows in the North.

Or it's simply cold arctic air from the lands of Always-Winter occasionally drifting south, mixing with warmer moister air and producing short flurries of snow...

In the same way, we are told that there are "spirit summers" in the depths of a Long Winter, where the temparutures can rise so much that a full harvest can actually be grown before the cold sets in again.

This to me explains the snowfalls in Summer and the warm spells in Winter perfectly.

Maybe it does, I actually had the very same idea when I first read the books. But that doesn't change much about the effects that it would have on farming in the North.

Therefore, the fact that snow falls in Summer should not be used as an indication of the North's latitude, as it would not make sense in the slightest.

See above. It's not (well, was not, thanks to global warming) uncommon here in Central Europe to get snow late in spring. It happens because there is still a lot of cold air in the arctic, and if it makes its way down fast enough, it can bring snow. It doesn't last long, but that's not the point.

Martin has stated that the Haunted Forest is like the area around Michigan. That has to place the North itself much further south than that.

The arctic treeline hundreds of miles north of the Wall merely confirms this.

The point is, the North is not equivalent to Scandinavia. It is the Lands beyond the Wall that are the equivalent of Scandinavia. The North is equivalent to areas to the south of Scandinavia, like Germany.

You need to stop taking everything GRRM says as the word of God. Often he just uses a broad comparison which people then totally misconstrue to mean something totally different. According to the descriptions in the books, the North looks like Russia/Scandinavia mixed with Ireland/Scotland. That is, grassy plains, bogs, and dense forests. As we go north beyond the wall, the climate becomes clearly taiga-esque. Still further north, it turns into a tundra.

Scandinavia, especially in the southern part of it, fits very well as the North-analogue in real world.

[Free Northman]

Northman, I've read your explanation elsewhere. It sounds good. However, what bothers me is the lack of any indication people get warm in the North or beyond the Wall. Germany has pretty hot summers and that doesn't seem the case in the North. I don't know, but they seem to have in a "summer summer", a colder summer than northern Scottish ones.

Well, we don't know that.

Besides, even in Sweden the record temparture is 38 degrees Celsius, which is desert like weather in our world.

So it never getting warm in the North doesn't really sound likely. We just never happened to see a particularly warm day.

[Free Northman]

Or it's simply cold arctic air from the lands of Always-Winter occasionally drifting south, mixing with warmer moister air and producing short flurries of snow...

Maybe it does, I actually had the very same idea when I first read the books. But that doesn't change much about the effects that it would have on farming in the North.

See above. It's not (well, was not, thanks to global warming) uncommon here in Central Europe to get snow late in spring. It happens because there is still a lot of cold air in the arctic, and if it makes its way down fast enough, it can bring snow. It doesn't last long, but that's not the point.

You need to stop taking everything GRRM says as the word of God. Often he just uses a broad comparison which people then totally misconstrue to mean something totally different. According to the descriptions in the books, the North looks like Russia/Scandinavia mixed with Ireland/Scotland. That is, grassy plains, bogs, and dense forests. As we go north beyond the wall, the climate becomes clearly taiga-esque. Still further north, it turns into a tundra.

Scandinavia, especially in the southern part of it, fits very well as the North-analogue in real world.

Well, the Arctic treeline is about 800 miles north of the Wall, putting the Wall itself at around 50 degrees North.

Seeing as the Canada/US border is at 49 degrees North, it seems Martin was pretty spot on in his assessment.

[Free Northman]

As for the effect on crops of occassional summer snows, considering that the Summer can be 5 years long or more, and that harvests still seem to take place every year, a late summer snow as Ned referred to it would not interfere with multiple harvests being collected and stored.

So no real effect on the crop yield.

[Victaerys]

As for the effect on crops of occassional summer snows, considering that the Summer can be 5 years long or more, and that harvests still seem to take place every year, a late summer snow as Ned referred to it would not interfere with multiple harvests being collected and stored.

So no real effect on the crop yield.

Nah, losing many months worth of work in field in an afternoon wouldn't have any real effect on the crop yield. Not at all.

IF your hypothesis is correct and these snows only occur during summer-winter periods, that is after the annual harvest, that it could be tolerated. If these snowfalls occurred randomly throughout the summer period, than they'd make agriculture as we know it very difficult to practice in the North. But since it is explicitly said in the books that the North depends primarily on farming, then it's either not the case, or they've found ways to cope with it (more frost-resistant crops, greater dependence on livestock, etc.).

But we're greatly off-topic now. It's only important in regards to the size and quality of the armies North can field. I believe that North is even less populated than the rest of Westeros (which is less densely populated than medieval Europe), which means warfare must be doubly difficult there.

[Free Northman]

Nah, losing many months worth of work in field in an afternoon wouldn't have any real effect on the crop yield. Not at all.

IF your hypothesis is correct and these snows only occur during summer-winter periods, that is after the annual harvest, that it could be tolerated. If these snowfalls occurred randomly throughout the summer period, than they'd make agriculture as we know it very difficult to practice in the North. But since it is explicitly said in the books that the North depends primarily on farming, then it's either not the case, or they've found ways to cope with it (more frost-resistant crops, greater dependence on livestock, etc.).

But we're greatly off-topic now. It's only important in regards to the size and quality of the armies North can field. I believe that North is even less populated than the rest of Westeros (which is less densely populated than medieval Europe), which means warfare must be doubly difficult there.

Agree.

Medieval England had a population density of about 40 people per square mile.

Medieval Scotland about 20 people per square mile.

I put the North at about 5 people per square mile.

[Free Northman]

Agree.

Medieval England had a population density of about 40 people per square mile.

Medieval Scotland about 20 people per square mile.

I put the North at about 5 people per square mile.

To go further, if that gives the North a population of 6 million, I'd put 2 million of those in the northern half of the North (North of Winterfell) and 4 million in the southern half (south of Winterfell).

[Yuri Targaryen]

Agree.

Medieval England had a population density of about 40 people per square mile.

Medieval Scotland about 20 people per square mile.

I put the North at about 5 people per square mile.

Well, that would give 30,000,000 people in the North, at least.

And back to beyond wall's forests, I don't think we can assume the ecology is the same of our world, otherwise long winters would kill them off. Anyhow, we are not able to state they're living a "summer's winter" (if there is such thing). They could well be living a "summer summer" that happens to be cold. 10°C for the daily highest.

[Free Northman]

Well, that would give 30,000,000 in the North, at least.

And back to beyond wall's forests, I don't think we can assume the ecology is the same of our world, otherwise long winters would kill them off. Anyhow, we are not able to state they're living a "summer's winter" (if there is such thing). They could well be living a "summer summer" that happens to be cold. 10°C for the daily highest.

The North covers about 1.2 million square miles. At 5 people per square mile, that equates to 6 million people.

[Yuri Targaryen]

^^

Sorry I did the math the other way round. The imperial system kills me!

[Free Northman]

^^

Sorry I did the math the other way round. The imperial system kills me!

Don't worry, I also have to do the conversion, being used to kilometres instead of miles.

[Gannicus]

I thought this was an interesting comparison map of Europe to Westeros. Although I think they place Westeros just slightly to north of what I believe, it's close to what I envisioned.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SniTwfm5BwE/TN7cr_nFGXI/AAAAAAAAC_0/Za-Q7s9SUtk/s1600/Westeros%2B-%2BEurope%2BComparison%2BSize.jpg

[Ahendrl]

The answer lies on GRRM, he already said that when he made up the distances he didn't check any maps to see what would be Westeros' real size, he was probably thinking it'd be no bigger than UK. He miscalculated, that's all.