It's really B + L = J: Let's discuss

[JonTargStark]

It is an interesting idea, but you must remember, going to the Wall was once an honorable duty, and plus, Jon just happen to run into him by himself, being alone outside, going to the Wall, etc, and also, I really would have hard time believing someone like Martin building up the secret of his birth over five books and more than a decade to have Jon Snow being Jon Snow the bastard born of incest, which doesn't achieve nothing, in their world...

[JonTargStark]

And, it isn't exactly all that correct to say Targs and Lannister both did it. Targaryans apparently had misled belief about inbreeding between themselves would benefit their descendants and their bloodlines, but for Lannister, it was just Cersei and Jamie who did it just because out of pure sexual urges and perhaps affection for each other. Those two cases are not that similar other in terms of its backgrounds and causes, and it does not really make one to think that other family would've done that same, especially the Stark family from the North.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

I meant to say "conceived." Jon was conceived a few months into the war, which basically eliminates Benjen as a possible father.

C'mon, this can't be indisputable that he has conceived a few months into the war. After all, the war was started because Lyanna was suspected of hanky panky.

The date isn't exacly stated, regarding how close it was to the beginning or end of the rebellion. Pretty much all we know is that Eddard brought back a tyke

when he came home. Do we even know how old it was at that time?

[Jorge Danger]

My mistrust of this Benjen Stark fellow is well-documented. But I still can't quite convince myself that this might be true. Call it a hunch. Although with the dearth of definite information we've been given about Benjen's past doings, there are a great many things that we don't really have enough evidence to prove OR disprove about this guy.

[Toccs]

I remember I read somewhere on here a while back the theory that it was J+L=J as Jeor Mormont and that's why the Old Bear got sent to the Wall. I think that makes much more sense then Benjen.

[JonTargStark]

And it is more accurate to say that there WERE more scenes SHOWN to the readers between Jon and Benjen, and rightfuly so given how the story unfolded, and it doesn't necessarily mean that Jon and Benjen was closer than Benjen was to other children in Stark family, and it doesn't necessarily mean there could be incest because siblings were close when they were young, if it was the case, then lots of siblings from othe families in GoT could be suspected of incests as well!

[Dragonfish]

C'mon, this can't be indisputable that he has conceived a few months into the war. After all, the war was started because Lyanna was suspected of hanky panky.

No, the war was started because Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon, the latter of whom had charged into King's Landing because he'd heard that something happened to Lyanna. At no point is it stated that she was suspected of having done "the hanky panky."

C'mon, this can't be indisputable that he has conceived a few months into the war. After all, the war was started because Lyanna was suspected of hanky panky.

The date isn't exacly stated, regarding how close it was to the beginning or end of the rebellion. Pretty much all we know is that Eddard brought back a tyke

when he came home. Do we even know how old it was at that time?

Like I said, we do know when Jon was conceived, based on statements George has made about when Jon was born. Namely, he has said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys, which puts his birth at around the Sack of King's Landing or up to a month after, and his conception at a few months into the year-long war.

[StarkSupporter]

I think that if Benjen is going to be involved with Jon's parentage, then perhaps his mother is Ashara Dayne. Perhpas Benjen is the Stark Barristan recalls with Ashara at Harrenhal.That is a theory I have been playing around with lately.

While I am definitely a subscriber to R+L=J, I have been thinking that Benjen slept with Ashara and Ned was supper pissed and in his anger sent Benjen to the Wall. At least that is the only reason I can see for Benjen to go to the Wall after Robert's Rebellion when things had to still be shaky politically, and half of Lord Richkard's children were killed. Robb, was just born and Ned was back from the war, but why risk the family when three is better than two?

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

Everything on this site, no matter how logical they sound, it really is only a speculation and guesses.

So, just because one sounds 'better' than another theory, it doesn't necessarily make one wrong and other right. But, I guess, biggest thing against your theory is that, there was little clues and hints and hidden signs pointing to the possible secret of Jon's birth for longer than a decade of this series, and from what I can make out from Martin's interviews, that it won't be insignificant discovery, not surprising that he has been building it up for more than ten years over five books.

Also, Jon is one of the main beloved characters, if your theory is right, it would make him a bastard AND the product of incest, AND it would be very insignificant revelation in terms of the story.

In some ways it may sound like it's possible, but it doesn't necessarily make it true, and I really don't think it is the case.

You're right. This is mostly just speculation. But also keep in mind that some of these discussions aren't meant to prove anything. They are put out there more or less to see if there

is any merit to the idea, whether it is worth exploring at all. This topic is one of those. I won't even go so far as saying I believe this theory. I don't even like it al that much, to be honest with

you. Jon is my favorite character, and the Starks are my favorite family. But to me, I'd much rather have him being born in a way that gives him zero advantage in the world, no good birthright, no romantic coupling of some ubber-couple, nothing. He comes from nothing that should give him any right to put himself over even the lowest serf. Everything Jon accomplishes has to be

by him and his comrades, those who believe in what he is, not because he has a powerful daddy. To me, R+L=J is exactly the opposite of the kind of story that GRRM writes. He is not a romantic writer, he's the ultimate realist. He's not into the mushy romantic, sentimental hog-wash that is so common in this genre.

[Lordtoofat2sitAthrone]

I admit I don't really believe all of these points (especially Eddard killing his sis for honor's sake, and then adopting the kid as his own). I just think that there may be

vaguely something here that is an alternate explanation for: a) her death - maybe not Eddard but maybe someone else who was torqued off at the event. B) Eddard's vague and hazy promise to her c) Benjen being toted off conveniently to the wall.

The only Stark child Benjen spends any quality time with is Jon, by the way, if I recall correctly. There are no significant scenes of him talking to Arya, say, or Bran, but I could be mistaken. So one could argue that at least Jon could be Benjen's favorite.

Something to chew on. You won't read anything from me such as "this is the most obvious truth! How could any sane human being disagree with my theory!!" At least not with this theory. Maybe you could convince me that this is just "barking up the wrong tree".

I'm sorry, at least from initial read, is that you believe in this theory, craziness. I think there is something that drove Benjen to the wall that may be related to Lyanna and Rhaegar, however. I don't feel that there were any plans before Brandon and Rickard's untimely death to ship him off. He may not have had much to do in the North, but I'm sure there was someone he could have married, maybe a Frey girl, someone of the Vale or the Riverlands.

There is so much poetry for lack of a better word that comes from the revelation that R+L=J. That Jon's song is truly the song of Ice and Fire. It would absolutely redefine Jon as a character and his importance going forward. Your idea, not so much.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

No, the war was started because Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon, the latter of whom had charged into King's Landing because he'd heard that something happened to Lyanna. At no point is it stated that she was suspected of having done "the hanky panky."

Like I said, we do know when Jon was conceived, based on statements George has made about when Jon was born. Namely, he has said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys, which puts his birth at around the Sack of King's Landing or up to a month after, and his conception at a few months into the year-long war.

I don't know what George has said or not said. I'm only using the knowledge of what I've read in the books (and from HBO's Game of Thrones, which is pretty damn awesome), and even at that, my recollection of all relevant dates is hazy to say the least. Let's just say that it is still possible that Benjen can be the father of Jon. I do know there is nothing written along the lines of "during the rebellion it is an indisputable fact that no Stark family members ever came in contact with Lyanna Stark".

And I do believe that Brandon Stark, along with Robert Baratheon, think that there was indeed some "hanky panky" going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. They believe she was kidnapped.

Well, if true, why do you think he kidnapped her? He had a hankering for her direwolf earrings?

[Kevan Lannister]

Fair play OP, if this was revealed it would be the greatest shock of all!

And those are good reasons!

[Dragonfish]

I don't know what George has said or not said. I'm only using the knowledge of what I've read in the books (and from HBO's Game of Thrones, which is pretty damn awesome), and even at that, my recollection of all relevant dates is hazy to say the least. Let's just say that it is still possible that Benjen can be the father of Jon. I do know there is nothing written along the lines of "during the rebellion it is an indisputable fact that no Stark family members ever came in contact with Lyanna Stark".

It's about as close to an indisputable fact as you can get. It would make absolutely no sense for Lyanna, who was in the hands of the Targaryens, to have had a liaison with Benjen, who was in Winterfell during the war, without anyone knowing about it.

And I do believe that Brandon Stark, along with Robert Baratheon, think that there was indeed some "hanky panky" going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. They believe she was kidnapped.

Well, if true, why do you think he kidnapped her? He had a hankering for her direwolf earrings?

No, I think Lyanna and Rhaegar had sex, I just don't think we know for sure if their having sex was what led to Brandon charging into King's Landing.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think that if Benjen is going to be involved with Jon's parentage, then perhaps his mother is Ashara Dayne. Perhpas Benjen is the Stark Barristan recalls with Ashara at Harrenhal.That is a theory I have been playing around with lately.

While I am definitely a subscriber to R+L=J, I have been thinking that Benjen slept with Ashara and Ned was supper pissed and in his anger sent Benjen to the Wall. At least that is the only reason I can see for Benjen to go to the Wall after Robert's Rebellion when things had to still be shaky politically, and half of Lord Richkard's children were killed. Robb, was just born and Ned was back from the war, but why risk the family when three is better than two?

Barriston said that a man dishonored her not a child. Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal. Benjen is younger than her.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

My mistrust of this Benjen Stark fellow is well-documented. But I still can't quite convince myself that this might be true. Call it a hunch. Although with the dearth of definite information we've been given about Benjen's past doings, there are a great many things that we don't really have enough evidence to prove OR disprove about this guy.

Good point. We are in extreme "hunch" mode here. It's possible that more of Benjen's background will be revealed in the upcoming books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dragonfish has said all that needs to be said. This idea is crackpot and was crackpot the first time it was mentioned, and every successive time. Timeline-wise, it's not possible.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

And it is more accurate to say that there WERE more scenes SHOWN to the readers between Jon and Benjen, and rightfuly so given how the story unfolded, and it doesn't necessarily mean that Jon and Benjen was closer than Benjen was to other children in Stark family, and it doesn't necessarily mean there could be incest because siblings were close when they were young, if it was the case, then lots of siblings from othe families in GoT could be suspected of incests as well!

Absolutely true. I agree on all of your points. We only "see" a portion of Benjen's visit. But still, the only important conversation he has is with Jon, no? Just saying...

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

Barriston said that a man dishonored her not a child. Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal. Benjen is younger than her.

Wow, I didn't know Lyanna (and Benjen) were so young. Still, age is significantly less of an issue regarding sex in this world. Hell, Sansa was married off as soon as she had her first period. These are different times than our modern world, or haven't you noticed?

[The Wood of the Morning]

what's so terribly shocking that the Starks may try the same

Everything :ack:

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

Dragonfish has said all that needs to be said. This idea is crackpot and was crackpot the first time it was mentioned, and every successive time. Timeline-wise, it's not possible.

Don't get too excited Apple. It probably is just a crackpot idea...but still you can't prove that Benjen could not have snuck into wherever Lyanna was staying, even during the war. There have been many examples, either written in the series or talked about, of people being able to do just that (sneaking in and out of enemy held terrritory).