The Manhood-Eating Goat Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 No that's not what I'm saying and I don't believe it was either Jeor or Benjen. I'm saying that if all the evidence being used is that 1) the person went to the wall for unknown reasons and 2) the person had several "fatherly" scenes with Jon, then the crackpot theory that it was Jeor is more plausible to me then the crackpot theory that it was Benjen.But Jeor being the father completely takes away the need for such secrecy. He'd have no claim to the throne and he'd not be an abomination, he'd just be another bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 But Jeor being the father completely takes away the need for such secrecy. He'd have no claim to the throne and he'd not be an abomination, he'd just be another bastard.He's not saying that Jeor's the father. He's pointing out that the same rationale used to support the idea of Benjen as the father could also be used to support Jeor as the father — that is to say, he's pointing out the fallacy of using "Benjen went to the Wall mysteriously!" as the hinge of the theory that Benjen fathered Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Manhood-Eating Goat Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Oh absolutely, but a third part of the rationale used to support the idea (which he conveniently didn't include in his post) is that explains Ned's lies about Jon's parents, while Jeor + Lyanna doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Oh absolutely, but a third part of the rationale used to support the idea (which he conveniently didn't include in his post) is that explains Ned's lies about Jon's parents, while Jeor + Lyanna doesn't.But he's not seriously arguing for Jeor being Jon's father. He's using it as an example to show why that specific reasoning for Benjen being the father is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Ye gods, people get trolled easily these days. Look, people, just because the original poster didn't say that Hodor is the father to Lyana's child it doesn't mean that we should give his theory any more credence than if he had. If we entertain any and every crackpot theory with multi-page discussion, why, our whole forum will be filled to the brim with threads and then where would w.... oh wait...Drat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinwesteros Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think it's interesting to just note which of the Starks that we know of in this series look the most alike. I think that at one point Catelyn mused that Arya and Jon [ I think she mentioned Jon by name, even though we know she hates him] have "the Stark look", whereas Sansa, Robb, and Rickon look much more like her. I'm not sure whom Bran is supposed to resemble the most, but my guess would be the Starks, not the Tulleys. So, I see Jon, Arya, Benjen, and Lyanna as all looking very similar. I'm not implying the Benjen and Lyanna parentage thing, not at all, but it sparked for me my fascination with the Starks and their lineage, and I wonder if, and who, former Starks might be who did not have that same look. Their line is so strong, and so conjoined with magic and deep, "ancient" history, I would just love to see a genogram that delves back at least 5 - 10 generations. Also to see a very brief summary of how things went thousands of years ago with the Night King and on down to Ned. :idea:Anyway, I've enjoyed the "let's discuss" part of this thread. But not so much when people start attacking or name-calling. [Tried to post this yesterday but kept getting kicked off the site. :frown5: ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babeldygob Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 1. Benjen is mysteriously sent to the Wall during Robert's Rebellion, or possibly soon after it is over. No explanation is really made for the reasons.Answer to that is 3rd sons often go to the Nights Watch, as they are not the heir.There must bemore to it than that. I definitely believe there's a reason Benjen was sent to the Wall. What that reason is, I cannot say. I doubt Benjen and Lyanna were a couple though, there's a big age-difference there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 There must bemore to it than that. I definitely believe there's a reason Benjen was sent to the Wall. What that reason is, I cannot say. I doubt Benjen and Lyanna were a couple though, there's a big age-difference there.Not everyone is sent to the wall. Some people volunteer like Jon.The Starks are shown to hold the Night's Watch in high regard as an honorable pursuit. Ned welcomes Yorren and treats him with honor, and Yorren is heard many times complaining about how "back in the day a black brother was treated better".Aemon Targaryen went to the wall of his own choice, I've always assumed that honorable men like Benjen and even Jeor were there by choice. The Night's Watch is really the only place in the world where you can not judge a man by the company he keeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Wasnt That Bad Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 OK, I'm now reasonably convinced that B + L = J did not happen, and I'm glad to be convinced of this, too. This is just too creepy of an event to happen in the Stark family. I could sense the disgust from some folks. You are right, it just doesn't match at all with what the Starks are, even though we know little about Lyanna and Benjen.We know that Jon has Starkian blook in him. It's been remarked repeatedly how he just looks like a Stark, unlike some of the Stark children. But I still think its possible Benjen provides the blood. There's not a lot of evidence to support, otherwise there would be a lot of people saying this. But there is enough circumstantial stuff for it to be plausible. Chiefly, that the only Stark Benjen appears to have any interest in is Jon (at least thats the only important conversation Benjen has in the series). Benjen goes to the Wall without any real explanation. Is this a transgression that has not yet been revealed? Or is it just business-as-usual for the Stark family? Either could be equally true. Jon is also pushed to join the Nights Watch, and does so. But if Benjen is Jon's true father, then who might the mother be? I don't know. That's a poser. Maybe someone has a similar theory and has an idea who the mother might be can fill in the blanks there. But to me, R + L = J is just backwards thinking regarding how GRRM writes his novels. That is the sentimental, romantic type of fantasy tripe that is rife in this genre, and really has little room in ASOIAF (thank God). The Jon I hope emerges is one who accomplishes everything on his own. Without any stinking birthrights. Without any sense of being entitled to be who he is. Do you really want this to end up as "Oh, he was really a Rockefeller. That's why he was such a powerful and successful leader!" I don't. I want him to be the nobody bastard who changes the world, but does it only on his own merits, and on those who believe in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 But to me, R + L = J is just backwards thinking regarding how GRRM writes his novels. That is the sentimental, romantic type of fantasy tripe that is rife in this genre, and really has little room in ASOIAF (thank God). The Jon I hope emerges is one who accomplishes everything on his own. Without any stinking birthrights. Without any sense of being entitled to be who he is. Do you really want this to end up as "Oh, he was really a Rockefeller. That's why he was such a powerful and successful leader!" I don't.I think Westeros.org did a pretty good rebuttal of this sentiment, so I'm going to copy it here:"Common objections to the “Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon” theory and brief responses to them:[...]'It’s cliche': The response to this is that the basic idea is certainly cliche, but how it plays out is a complete mystery. If Martin turns it on his head by revealing that, yes, Jon is the “rightful heir” but that Jon is not going to become ruler (through death, politics, or choice), that adds another layer of complication and complexity to the story without playing out in a cliche manner. Jon could even end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms and it could be approached in a manner that rises above the underlying cliche. In the end, we simply do not know. What we do know is that the author often subverts fantasy tropes and cliches."I want him to be the nobody bastard who changes the world, but does it only on his own merits, and on those who believe in him.Well, this seems pretty cliche as well, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenlyWasNotGay Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 OK, I'm now reasonably convinced that B + L = J did not happen, and I'm glad to be convinced of this, too. This is just too creepy of an event to happen in the Stark family. I could sense the disgust from some folks. You are right, it just doesn't match at all with what the Starks are, even though we know little about Lyanna and Benjen.We know that Jon has Starkian blook in him. It's been remarked repeatedly how he just looks like a Stark, unlike some of the Stark children. But I still think its possible Benjen provides the blood. There's not a lot of evidence to support, otherwise there would be a lot of people saying this. But there is enough circumstantial stuff for it to be plausible. Chiefly, that the only Stark Benjen appears to have any interest in is Jon (at least thats the only important conversation Benjen has in the series). Benjen goes to the Wall without any real explanation. Is this a transgression that has not yet been revealed? Or is it just business-as-usual for the Stark family? Either could be equally true. Jon is also pushed to join the Nights Watch, and does so.But if Benjen is Jon's true father, then who might the mother be? I don't know. That's a poser. Maybe someone has a similar theory and has an idea who the mother might be can fill in the blanks there.But to me, R + L = J is just backwards thinking regarding how GRRM writes his novels. That is the sentimental, romantic type of fantasy tripe that is rife in this genre, and really has little room in ASOIAF (thank God). The Jon I hope emerges is one who accomplishes everything on his own. Without any stinking birthrights. Without any sense of being entitled to be who he is. Do you really want this to end up as "Oh, he was really a Rockefeller. That's why he was such a powerful and successful leader!" I don't. I want him to be the nobody bastard who changes the world, but does it only on his own merits, and on those who believe in him.You think that R + L = J is just backwards thinking... but you were latching onto Benjen sneaking into Lyanna's unknown whereabouts during the war and banging her and then bouncing. Ned somehow finding out and sending him to the wall. Lul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 There must bemore to it than that. I definitely believe there's a reason Benjen was sent to the Wall. What that reason is, I cannot say. I doubt Benjen and Lyanna were a couple though, there's a big age-difference there.Why must there be some dark reason that Benjen was sent to the wall? We know that the North, and the Starks in particular, hold the order of the Night's Watch in high regard. We know that Jon chose to go to the Night's Watch. Why couldn't Benjen have simply chosen it? Why couldn't it be as simple as Benjen being a third son and taken out of the main line of succession since his older brother already has heirs and so he chooses to become a black brother instead of castellan for Winterfell? Why can't it be just continuing the tradition of having a Stark on the wall? The Starks don't have many cadet houses in the same way that the Lannisters do. The cadet Karstark house is a thousand years old and the other cadet branch, the Greystarks, are extinct. Second, third and fourth sons had to go somewhere. It think it would be a huge leap to assume that there were never any second or third living sons in a thousand years. We can assume that these spare sons were married to other houses and took on the name of their wives house or that they went to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 GRRM said that we'll learn why Benjen joined. I think it might have been guilt. Maybe he helped Lyanna get away. [Why did Benjen join the Night's Watch?]Good question. One day you will get an answer. But it will not be today.http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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