[Book Spoilers] Let's Be a Frey for a Day (heh, heh)

[7V3N]

The Freys of the twins. The one thing that all readers basically agree on: these guys need to suffer. But let's remove our biases.

Walder Frey has a reputation for having conditional loyalty. It was this that earned him the nickname "the late Lord Frey." He and his family are considered scum by the rest of Westeros, despite their powerful forces and their strategic location.

Walder Frey is bitter. Nobody has ever respected him. Nobody has ever wanted to wed a Frey, to host a Frey as a guest, to be known as a friend of the Freys. Nobody shows up at his weddings. He has so many children and grandchildren and he can barely marry any of them off.

Lord Walder Frey finally receives a golden opportunity when the Young Wolf Robb Stark needs to pass through the Twins to have a chance of success. He gets to name his own price. The main requirement placed is that Robb Stark must take a Frey as his wife. He can finally raise his family to a position of respect! So he joins the Young Wolf in his rebellion and sends his men South with the army.

After much fighting and many losses (though victories), things look very optimistic. This Young Wolf has been named the King in the North. A Frey shall be queen, and the Kings in the North shall have Frey blood in them. The Lannisters seem to be weakening, and have Renly (temporarily) and Stannis to deal with. The ironborn have attacked the North, but as long as the Twins and the Neck are secure, nobody can attack from the South.

Renly dies and Stannis is crushed at Blackwater, but the Young Wolf is in the West and better--he is winning. But then the worst has happened again--Lord Walder Frey has been pissed on. Robb Stark had to choose between dishonoring Jeyne and House Westerling or dishonoring Lord Walder, the Frey that was to be his wife (I expect Roslin, since she is the only attractive one), and all of House Frey. Robb chose the Westerlings, a House he had just encountered. Robb chose that his (relatively) long-standing oath to the Freys was less important than the honor of Jeyne Westerling.

At this point, Lord Walder has been downgraded from having the king's ear to having the king's piss. He reacts by seeking revenge. We all know what happens at that point: the Red Wedding.

Now, the execution of such an act was horrible, there is no doubting that. But would you not want vengeance? Repayment? Some sort of compensation for the dishonor that this king placed on you? Robb betrayed his oath to the Freys while Lord Walder sent men to fight a war he had no desire to fight in. People of his own kin sent to fight a war. But Robb says "Thanks for the men, I'll put them to good use," and moves on.

I am not supporting the Freys, but I think we need to at least empathize.

[Ser Hippie]

The Freys withdrew their support from Robb, that's fine. They could have taken up arms against him or bent the knee to Joffrey or refused the offer to atone for it by marrying Edmure to Roslin but decided to go down the mass murder route. That's the problem.

[7V3N]

The Freys withdrew their support from Robb, that's fine. They could have taken up arms against him or bent the knee to Joffrey or refused the offer to atone for it by marrying Edmure to Roslin but decided to go down the mass murder route. That's the problem.

Please read past the title and first few lines. This is not a "Was the Red Wedding right?" thread. This discusses how the Freys' desire for vengeance was not unwarranted.

ETA:

Never.

Thanks for contributing. Now stay the hell out of this thread until you want to use your brain to actually contribute to the discussion.

[Dr. Pepper]

Walder Frey is bitter. Nobody has ever respected him. Nobody has ever wanted to wed a Frey, to host a Frey as a guest, to be known as a friend of the Freys.

False. Old Walder has married his brood to houses in the Stormlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Westerlands and the Crownlands. He's not lacking in marriages for his offspring....at least not before the Red Wedding. He was bitter that he was not let in on the alliance between Tully, Stark, Arryn and Baratheon.

Now, the execution of such an act was horrible, there is no doubting that. But would you not want vengeance? Repayment? Some sort of compensation for the dishonor that this king placed on you? Robb betrayed his oath to the Freys while Lord Walder sent men to fight a war he had no desire to fight in. People of his own kin sent to fight a war. But Robb says "Thanks for the men, I'll put them to good use," and moves on.

I am not supporting the Freys, but I think we need to at least empathize.

I have empathy for his offspring, but not for him. He thought to sire an empire and extend his influence into as many parts of Westeros as he could. As mentioned above, he has influence via marriage to the Stormlands, the Crownlands, the Westerlands, the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. His offspring will be heirs to more houses than anyone else in Westeros. One of his sons is married to a woman from Braavos (which might be influential) and there's a septon and a maester from his offspring, so some extension in the religious and education orders of Westeros. This tells me that Old Walder wouldn't have been content to have his daughter and grandchildren be queens, kings and princesses one region on the continent. He strikes me as the type of dude who wants the empire he's sired to rule it all. I think he would have turned on Robb no matter what.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Please read past the title and first few lines. This is not a "Was the Red Wedding right?" thread. This discusses how the Freys' desire for vengeance was not unwarranted.

But the problem is that the method of vengeance was grossly disproportional to the wrong that was incurred.

[Ser Hippie]

Please read past the title and first few lines. This is not a "Was the Red Wedding right?" thread. This discusses how the Freys' desire for vengeance was not unwarranted.

And your point?

I said they were well within their rights to get back at Robb, the problem was the manner in which they did so.

[7V3N]

False. Old Walder has married his brood to houses in the Stormlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Westerlands and the Crownlands. He's not lacking in marriages for his offspring....at least not before the Red Wedding. He was bitter that he was not let in on the alliance between Tully, Stark, Arryn and Baratheon.

I have empathy for his offspring, but not for him. He thought to sire an empire and extend his influence into as many parts of Westeros as he could. As mentioned above, he has influence via marriage to the Stormlands, the Crownlands, the Westerlands, the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. His offspring will be heirs to more houses than anyone else in Westeros. One of his sons is married to a woman from Braavos (which might be influential) and there's a septon and a maester from his offspring, so some extension in the religious and education orders of Westeros. This tells me that Old Walder wouldn't have been content to have his daughter and grandchildren be queens, kings and princesses one region on the continent. He strikes me as the type of dude who wants the empire he's sired to rule it all. I think he would have turned on Robb no matter what.

Yes, he wedded them. But how are those marriages viewed? And you never see a major lord thinking of marrying a Frey. Lannisters will marry with their bannermen, as all major lord would do. But the Tully's cannot be bothered to even show up.

I seriously doubt he would have turned on Robb if he had stayed true to his vow to marry a Frey.

[Castel]

False. Old Walder has married his brood to houses in the Stormlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Westerlands and the Crownlands. He's not lacking in marriages for his offspring....at least not before the Red Wedding. He was bitter that he was not let in on the alliance between Tully, Stark, Arryn and Baratheon.

All marriages were not created equal. Compare houses Baratheon and Stark to say Connington, or Osgrey.

This tells me that Old Walder wouldn't have been content to have his daughter and grandchildren be queens, kings and princesses one region on the continent. He strikes me as the type of dude who wants the empire he's sired to rule it all. I think he would have turned on Robb no matter what.

There's an alternate explanation. Walder Frey has so many children that he doesn't need to micromanage their marriages, especially if he can't find big houses for them to marry. Marry outside Westeros has little political value, and keep in mind how having a child become a septon or maester eliminates another quarrelsome mouth and possible children you have to deal with. These could just have easily been black sheep or kids that used the freedom that comes from being in such a large family to do what they wanted.

On top of that, if it's control that Frey wanted, there was no better path than through Robb. He's not ever going to marry a Lannister, or a Tyrell and as a bannerman to Robb Stark he currently holds a lot more power than he ever would with the Lannisters. Also, it's quite a leap to jump from a passive conquest by marriage (which I still think is false) to turning on your current greatest conquest when there are literally no other viable options.

Robb fucked Walder. Walder fucked him back. As for mass murder? I laughed honestly, please compare with the scene Robb caused when he shattered Steffon's army. Mass murder is the name of the game, the fact that Robb wasn't ready (a ridiculous concept I hear about too often, that Walder didn't play fair) only speaks to the effectiveness of the plan.

[Howling Mad]

The issue is that WF accepted Robb's terms for compsenation for being slighted and then renegged on Robb with the RW. Had WF kept his word and accepted the marriage of his daughter to Edmure and let by gones be by gones WF's repuation and standing throughout Westeros would have been greatly improved. However, WF cements his reputation as a small man unworthy of any honor or respect by literally backstabbing Robb. WF had many options before him and the RW may have been the most emotionally satisfying to the old loon but it will doom his house, name, and heirs for enternity.

[7V3N]

And your point?

I said they were well within their rights to get back at Robb, the problem was the manner in which they did so.

Like I said, please leave out the whole "but the Red Wedding...." thing. Sorry for the hostility, but I find it annoying when I explicitly point out how I want to avoid something, and multiple people immediately hit home on it. Then there is some idiot who comes up with the brilliant response "Never." Sorry (I do mean that).

But revenge was warranted. That is my point. Robb was foolish to expect the Freys to accept being pissed on again, this time worse than ever. They were a major part of his army. Losing them was (IMO) too great of a loss to accept, given the state of the North and the Lannisters' ability to focus on Robb's Rebellion (huh).

[Dr. Pepper]

Yes, he wedded them. But how are those marriages viewed? And you never see a major lord thinking of marrying a Frey. Lannisters will marry with their bannermen, as all major lord would do. But the Tully's cannot be bothered to even show up.

I seriously doubt he would have turned on Robb if he had stayed true to his vow to marry a Frey.

Have you missed where Tywin's sister Genna is married to Emmon Frey and Devan is to be married to a Frey and Lancel is married to a Frey? There are also all of those lordly houses in the Stormlands, the Crownlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands married to a Frey. Let's not forget that Lord Bolton married a Frey and Manderly has betrothed his grandaughter to a Frey. I'm assuming the marriages are viewed well considering he never lacked in marriage offers for his offspring. If you look closely at the family tree, you'll see that there's a method. When one of his wives was from the Vale, her children were mostly married to other houses in the Vale. Riverlands wife - Riverlands marriages for offspring.

The issues here is that before Robert's Rebellion, it was not common for the major houses to marry outside their bannermen. When it happened, it was to other major houses, not to the bannermen of another region. When the Baratheons, Starks, Arryns and Tullys were making their marriage alliances, it was a unique experience. These are the major houses. Why would a non-major house like the Freys be included in this alliance? As far as Hoster not attending his last marriage. For fuck's sake, the name was married eight times. He snubbed his liege lord by not answering to their call for Robert's Rebellion and then snubbed him again for not coming to their aid when the Lannisters attacked. Why would Hoster be inclined to attend the 8th marriage for a man like that? Not to mention Hoster was bed-ridden when marriage number eight came around.

[Castel]

Have you missed where Tywin's sister Genna is married to Emmon Frey and Devan is to be married to a Frey and Lancel is married to a Frey? There are also all of those lordly houses in the Stormlands, the Crownlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands married to a Frey. Let's not forget that Lord Bolton married a Frey and Manderly has betrothed his grandaughter to a Frey. I'm assuming the marriages are viewed well considering he never lacked in marriage offers for his offspring. If you look closely at the family tree, you'll see that there's a method. When one of his wives was from the Vale, her children were mostly married to other houses in the Vale. Riverlands wife - Riverlands marriages for offspring.

You mean Manderly that had to make sure that his son wasn't killed and Bolton that was part of the set-up. Those marriages happened because of , not despite Walder Frey's attitude.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Like I said, please leave out the whole "but the Red Wedding...." thing. Sorry for the hostility, but I find it annoying when I explicitly point out how I want to avoid something, and multiple people immediately hit home on it. Then there is some idiot who comes up with the brilliant response "Never." Sorry (I do mean that).

But revenge was warranted. That is my point. Robb was foolish to expect the Freys to accept being pissed on again, this time worse than ever. They were a major part of his army. Losing them was (IMO) too great of a loss to accept, given the state of the North and the Lannisters' ability to focus on Robb's Rebellion (huh).

Apologies, but I don't think you can talk about Walder Frey and revenge but say that the Red Wedding is off-limits in terms of discussion.

[Dr. Pepper]

All marriages were not created equal. Compare houses Baratheon and Stark to say Connington, or Osgrey.

Baratheon and Stark are major houses while Connington and Osgrey aren't. Traditionally, major houses married within their own regions. Major house marriages outside of regions were to other major houses. The Great Houses are Lannister, Baratheon, Martell, Stark, Tully, Arryn, (previously) Targaryen, and Tyrell (I think). House Frey is not a great house.

There's an alternate explanation. Walder Frey has so many children that he doesn't need to micromanage their marriages, especially if he can't find big houses for them to marry. Marry outside Westeros has little political value, and keep in mind how having a child become a septon or maester eliminates another quarrelsome mouth and possible children you have to deal with. These could just have easily been black sheep or kids that used the freedom that comes from being in such a large family to do what they wanted.

On top of that, if it's control that Frey wanted, there was no better path than through Robb. He's not ever going to marry a Lannister, or a Tyrell and as a bannerman to Robb Stark he currently holds a lot more power than he ever would with the Lannisters. Also, it's quite a leap to jump from a passive conquest by marriage (which I still think is false) to turning on your current greatest conquest when there are literally no other viable options.

The Lannisters have wed the Freys. The thing is, as mentioned above, traditionally great houses do not wed with sworn houses to other great houses. The alliance of many great houses corresponding with Robert's Rebellion was unique and there's no reason for Frey to have been included with it. There's also an obvious method to Lord Frey's marriages. The children of a vale wife tend to be married to houses in the Vale. Riverlands wife children to houses in the Riverlands. Old Walder wasn't just sitting around letting his kids marry whomever. It's obvious he had a method with his choosing. And since traditionally great houses marry their bannermen, his offspring will eventually be married to the Great Houses.

The kids who became Septons and Maesters weren't even living at the Twins. They were in other established houses that their brother was heir to.

Marriages outside of Westeros can have political significance depending on who the person is. If Betharios was just some lowly merchant's daughter, probably no political significance. If she's the daughter of, say, whomever controls the Iron Bank....there's significance.

The fact that Lord Frey kept marrying, kept having offspring, and kept making marriages for his offspring indicates that he wasn't just a virile man who enjoyed the fairer sex. If that was the case, he'd just have a slew of paramours (which he apparently did considering he had plenty of bastards). To me, all of these marriages and offspring and subsequent marriages (especially all of those to actual heirs) makes it clear that Old Walder isn't just looking for the best deal with a major house to come along and then declare he's finally put Frey on the map. To me, it's clear that he's looking to spread his influence to every possible region of Westeros and Robb was a stepping stone and was disposable if other options came available (which they did).

You mean Manderly that had to make sure that his son wasn't killed and Bolton that was part of the set-up. Those marriages happened because of , not despite Walder Frey's attitude.

I was replying to a specific comment that said no other lords married the Freys. I also qualified that with a remark that obviously the views of these marriages changed after the Red Wedding.

[beetlequeen]

Apologies, but I don't think you can talk about Walder Frey and revenge but say that the Red Wedding is off-limits in terms of discussion.

Agreed. You can duck around it all you want but the RW is the elephant in the room of this whole topic. You can discount it all you want but it's still there.

[houseHB]

If I was a Frey for a day, I would betray my house and set up a marriage proposal between one of Walder Frey's daughters and lead the Frey's into a Lady Stoneheart trap.

[7V3N]

Have you missed where Tywin's sister Genna is married to Emmon Frey and Devan is to be married to a Frey and Lancel is married to a Frey? There are also all of those lordly houses in the Stormlands, the Crownlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands married to a Frey. Let's not forget that Lord Bolton married a Frey and Manderly has betrothed his grandaughter to a Frey. I'm assuming the marriages are viewed well considering he never lacked in marriage offers for his offspring. If you look closely at the family tree, you'll see that there's a method. When one of his wives was from the Vale, her children were mostly married to other houses in the Vale. Riverlands wife - Riverlands marriages for offspring.

The issues here is that before Robert's Rebellion, it was not common for the major houses to marry outside their bannermen. When it happened, it was to other major houses, not to the bannermen of another region. When the Baratheons, Starks, Arryns and Tullys were making their marriage alliances, it was a unique experience. These are the major houses. Why would a non-major house like the Freys be included in this alliance? As far as Hoster not attending his last marriage. For fuck's sake, the name was married eight times. He snubbed his liege lord by not answering to their call for Robert's Rebellion and then snubbed him again for not coming to their aid when the Lannisters attacked. Why would Hoster be inclined to attend the 8th marriage for a man like that? Not to mention Hoster was bed-ridden when marriage number eight came around.

Those Freys are all laughed at. Emmon Frey is not even respected by his wife and is basically labeled a pussy in front of others by Jaime. The marriages may take place, but it is partly a dishonor. Nobody wants to marry a Frey. Well, except Edmure for a few hours.

We do not know if Hoster ever showed the Freys respect. Walder Frey (take it with a grain of salt) seems to think not. I know in the show Walder says he didn't show up to the wedding before either. Did he go to any of them? There is a give and take. Robb knew that he needed to earn the respect of his bannermen (although the method of doing so is different for Northern culture). It seems to me nobody bothered to try to earn the respect of the Freys, which is just another way of disrespecting them. Like saying, "I don't give a fuck what you think about me."

Apologies, but I don't think you can talk about Walder Frey and revenge but say that the Red Wedding is off-limits in terms of discussion.

No. I want to it to be paused basically right after the Freys leave Riverrun. At that point, Walder was correct in wanting revenge. Revenge. A general term. The Red Wedding is a specific (and exceptionally brutal) act of revenge. I am not defending the Red Wedding. I am defending a desire for revenge. Did Walder take it too far? Certainly. But was there revenge that we could say, "Yeah, Robb deserved it." Certainly.

[Castel]

I want to deal with other posts in this thread but I think that I'll wait till I wake up.

No. I want to it to be paused basically right after the Freys leave Riverrun. At that point, Walder was correct in wanting revenge. Revenge. A general term. The Red Wedding is a specific (and exceptionally brutal) act of revenge. I am not defending the Red Wedding. I am defending a desire for revenge. Did Walder take it too far? Certainly. But was there revenge that we could say, "Yeah, Robb deserved it." Certainly.

The problem with this is that there's really little argument to be made. Walder Frey was right to feel insulted. The end. Without some standard to judge the degree of ferocity he should have reacted with...we have nothing to discuss.

[Kernest]

I think Walder Frey could have gotten much more out of Robb if he had just rescined his support until Robb promises to marry his yet unconveiced son to a Frey, gives him and his boys tracts of land all across Robbs kingdom and lets throw in freedom from taxes for generations to come. Instead Walder chose revenge.

Now you could say he decided that Robb is not going to win anymore and switched sides because of that, but then why do it in that fashion? He could have just called his troops home and tell Robb to storm the bridge or bugger off and not declare for Joffrey until the royal army is at his gates. I don't really think the honorable king Robb would have deemed Walder to be an oathbreaker for that, after all he screwed up first.

[7V3N]

But then what does everyone believe would have been an appropriate response? I am sorry this thread is more argumentative. That was not my intention. I want this to be constructive and thought-provoking.

At some point enough is enough. Robb's actions were a huge insult to the Freys. I would have demanded that Robb's firstborn child is to marry a Frey, along with Edmure, then matches with some Northern lords such as Karstark and Umber, and a lord's heir to be fostered at the Twins. I would not have reacted with violence, but my demand would be high. I would want to make sure it never happens again and that my family will finally be respected. If Robb rejected my terms, I would tell him that he broke his oath and therefore our alliance and I would pull from his war and begin treating with the Lannisters since they were the best option for security.