[Book Spoilers] Let's Be a Frey for a Day (heh, heh)

[Silver Spearwife]

Have you missed where Tywin's sister Genna is married to Emmon Frey and Devan is to be married to a Frey and Lancel is married to a Frey?

Thank you! Damn, I knew I couldn't be the only person who remembered that Frey had his hands deep in the Lannisters' bloodline (might wanna cross Lancel off the list, though).

But revenge was warranted. That is my point.

The thing is that...I don't disagree with that, and I don't know anyone who does. What Robb did was wrong. A proper response would have been for him to lose the Freys. Given how crucial the location of the Twins is, that could have lost Robb the war. That would have been his own damn fault.

But one of the most infamous massacres in Westerosi history? That just may be a little much.

The problem with this is that there's really little argument to be made. Walder Frey was right to feel insulted. The end. Without some standard to judge the degree of ferocity he should have reacted with...we have nothing to discuss.

To clarify, you're suggesting that as there is no quantifiable scale to measure qualitative aspects such as "revenge" or "ferocity" with, that therefore they cannot be gauged at all. Meaning that no form of revenge can be considered disproportionate by any means, as it is entirely subject to interpretation and a discussion cannot be concluded with a finite result.

Honestly, I mean this sincerely, is that what you were getting at? That's how it sounded to me.

[RoamingRonin]

Walder Frey was a manipulative bastard. His children and relatives were already married to many prestigious Houses -- it's his own fault for having such a large, constantly growing brood. When a normal lord has more than two sons, the third grows up knowing he won't receive as much as his older brothers unless they die early. Walder's children didn't die, they multiplied and they all expected SOMETHING. The Red Wedding was a HUGE overreaction. The Freys could have declared for the Lannisters and cut the North off from the twins, simple as that. I don't sympathize with the Freys.

[Castel]

To clarify, you're suggesting that as there is no quantifiable scale to measure qualitative aspects such as "revenge" or "ferocity" with, that therefore they cannot be gauged at all. Meaning that no form of revenge can be considered disproportionate by any means, as it is entirely subject to interpretation and a discussion cannot be concluded with a finite result.

Honestly, I mean this sincerely, is that what you were getting at? That's how it sounded to me.

No, I'm saying that without the RW at one end, we really have little to discuss since the various levels of "acceptable" revenge are all generally compared to that.

It's an empty discussion without the RW. Walder Frey was insulted, that's not up for debate, his methods are.

[i know oh oh oh]

I strongly disagree with some of the premises of this post. The Ironborn attacks on the North and the Lannister victory at Blackwater (combined with the new Tyrell alliance) were much bigger blows to Robb's cause than you give them credit for. I'm fairly certain that Frey - and Bolton for that matter - meant to drop Robb well before they heard he had married Jeyne. Besides, the very terms of his wedding pact (with the marriage taking place after the fighting, which contrasts with the Arryn/Stark/Tully alliance where the weddings were held before heading off to war) indicate that Walder Frey probably wanted to give himself some leeway to get out of the kitchen as soon as he couldn't stand the heat, so to speak. I don't buy this idea that he was genuinely loyal to the Starks up until the moment he was betrayed. Robb gave him an excuse to withdraw his support, and then Tywin seized to occasion and gave him the opportunity to exact his revenge.

As for the marriages, several people have already pointed out that the sheer volume of his brood is the main issue. He would have found no problem getting matches if he'd had, say, five children or fewer. But he keeps reproducing like it's going out of style and then gets all indignant when high lords don't want to marry their offspring to people who are, like, 74th in the line of succession. No shit, dude.

[Dr. Pepper]

Those Freys are all laughed at. Emmon Frey is not even respected by his wife and is basically labeled a pussy in front of others by Jaime.

Emmon would be laughed at whether he was a Frey or a Lannister or a Tyrell. He's not laughed at because he's a Frey. He's laughed at because he's a foolish oaf. It's like Harys Swyft isn't mocked because he's a Swyft. He's mocked because of his coughing.

There are other Freys that people think are fools but that's bound to happen in a group of 100+. There are plenty of Freys people don't consider fools.

The marriages may take place, but it is partly a dishonor. Nobody wants to marry a Frey. Well, except Edmure for a few hours.

It's not a dishonor. Tywin wasn't upset that Genna married a Frey. He was upset that the only daughter of Tytos did not marry a first son. If it was such a dishonor for other houses to marry a Frey, other houses wouldn't marry them. I can understand Lord Frey's own sworn houses marrying, because they kinda have to, but what about all those houses in all the other regions marrying Freys? It's not like Old W is marrying his brood only to third, fourth or fifth sons and daughters. He's marrying them to heirs or spares, to first daughters or only daughters also outside his own sworn bannermen. People want to marry the Freys because they obviously have something to offer, which is basically how all noble marriages are arranged. Lord Freys claim that he can't get marriages for his kids and grandkids is false, because he clearly can considering the family tree indicates they are married. And anyway, if he was so worried, he'd stop marrying and having trueborn kids.

We do not know if Hoster ever showed the Freys respect. Walder Frey (take it with a grain of salt) seems to think not. I know in the show Walder says he didn't show up to the wedding before either. Did he go to any of them?

I don't remember what was said in the show, but in the books Old W says Hoster did not go to the seventh or eighth marriage. Lady Catelyn recalls spending time at the Twins when she was young, so obviously Hoster went there on occasions that were more than just quick meetings. Cat does think about how Hoster's health had been going down in recent years which seems like one of the most reasonable excuses for him to have missed the weddings. Another reasonable excuse is that enough is enough. How many times does a man need to marry when he's clearly got enough spares to his heir? If I were Hoster, I would see Lord Frey's numerous marriages as a threat against Riverrun. I wouldn't have gone either.

Now, Walder wanted to marry a daughter to Edmure. The way Cat's meeting reads makes it seem that Walder approached Hoster about this some time after Robert's Rebellion (Edmure is something like ten years younger than Cat). Hoster refused, obviously. What reasons did Hoster have to approve such a betrothal when Old W has proven that he is untrustworthy? He doesn't show up, he makes all of these marriage alliances all over the continent.....

Walder's conversation with Cat also discusses a 'slight' he felt when Jon Arryn wouldn't foster some of his kids since Sweetrobin was supposed to go to Dragonstone. Walder specifically wanted an exchange of wards and since Jon Arryn had no son to exchange since he'd already settled a deal with Stannis, he had to refuse. Walder makes it seem like Arryn slighted him somehow when it appears that wasn't the case at all.

The entire chapter where Cat is talking to Lord Frey reads like it was all planned and acted by the Freys present. He had his brood lined up and some of them were shouting out little admonishments to Old Walder. He doesn't strike me as the type of man who would have stayed alive if he let his brood tell him what to do all the time so clearly it was all previously set up how they would present themselves. There's also another time when there was obvious acting - though I hate to bring it up since it seems like you don't want this thread to go in that direction but it must be mention - the Red Wedding.

There is a give and take. Robb knew that he needed to earn the respect of his bannermen (although the method of doing so is different for Northern culture). It seems to me nobody bothered to try to earn the respect of the Freys, which is just another way of disrespecting them. Like saying, "I don't give a fuck what you think about me."

But respect is earned. Old Walder didn't bother to earn his respect from a house he was sworn to. There are two instances that Walder doesn't bother to answer his lord's call : Robert's Rebellion and the Lannister attack on Riverrun. That's how he got the Late Lord Frey name. There's no indication that he had a different, insulting nickname before Robert's Rebellion. If he didn't answer the summons, I'm assuming he also didn't attend Cat and Lysa's weddings and then there he is complaining that Hoster didn't attend his seventh and eighth weddings.

I've really been focusing a lot on the Freys in my random rereads of sections because I don't think Old Walder is just interested in marrying up. The more I study all of the marriages he's made for his offspring, the more it becomes apparent to me that there's some ulterior plan. Some plan like making an empire of the Freys. He started with the Riverlands and pushed into the Vale and then started making headway in the Crownlands and the Westerlands and later the Stormlands and now he's going up into the North. I'm not saying it's a good plan he has, just sharing what I've concluded.

[danm_999]

But respect is earned. Old Walder didn't bother to earn his respect from a house he was sworn to. There are two instances that Walder doesn't bother to answer his lord's call : Robert's Rebellion and the Lannister attack on Riverrun. That's how he got the Late Lord Frey name. There's no indication that he had a different, insulting nickname before Robert's Rebellion. If he didn't answer the summons, I'm assuming he also didn't attend Cat and Lysa's weddings and then there he is complaining that Hoster didn't attend his seventh and eighth weddings.

He also reveals he's hosted three different Kings at the Twins, and Cat in her POV reveals she and her family visited the Twins when she was young.

So it appears all the snubbing occured after Robert's Rebellion, when Frey showed up after the Battle for the Trident was over and assured Robert and Hoster he had intended to fight for them all along.

[Dr. Pepper]

I accidentally stumbled across a reason why Hoster (or a representative since we find out later that he is bed ridden) did not go to Lord Walder's wedding to his eighth wife, Lady Joyeuse. When Catelyn captures Tyrion at the Crossroads in, there is a group of Freys there and Cat asks how Lord Frey fares. They reply that he take his 8th wife on his 90th nameday. Later when Cat is in the Eyrie, they receive word that Riverrun is under attack by the Lannnisters. Edmure (who I presume would have been the representative at the Frey wedding since Hoster obviously couldn't go) was charged with gathering forces to meet the Lannisters. He was defeated and taken hostage by Jaime. Jaime then besieged Riverrun. So obviously they couldn't be at the wedding and Lord Walder is using that as a 'slight' to get what he wanted from Cat when she went to negotiate.

No idea if Edmure attended the 7th wedding in Hoster's place.

[Lummel]

...But respect is earned. Old Walder didn't bother to earn his respect from a house he was sworn to. There are two instances that Walder doesn't bother to answer his lord's call : Robert's Rebellion and the Lannister attack on Riverrun. That's how he got the Late Lord Frey name. There's no indication that he had a different, insulting nickname before Robert's Rebellion. If he didn't answer the summons, I'm assuming he also didn't attend Cat and Lysa's weddings and then there he is complaining that Hoster didn't attend his seventh and eighth weddings...

I think Walder Frey's caution here has long roots. In The Mystery Knight we see how his sister was married to Lord Butterworth who had his castle demolished and nine tenths of his wealth confiscated for supporting a Blackfyre pretender. Walder Frey was present at the marriage and his brother-in-laws punishment though but a snot nosed brat at the time. So he learnt early that taking sides is extremely risky.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think Walder Frey's caution here has long roots. In The Mystery Knight we see how his sister was married to Lord Butterworth who had his castle demolished and nine tenths of his wealth confiscated for supporting a Blackfyre pretender. Walder Frey was present at the marriage and his brother-in-laws punishment though but a snot nosed brat at the time. So he learnt early that taking sides is extremely risky.

I clearly need to finish reading the Dunk and Egg tales. I just can't get into them for some reason. :(

[Lummel]

I clearly need to finish reading the Dunk and Egg tales. I just can't get into them for some reason. :(

Oh that's terrible :crying: !

Yeah, the thing is there are more and more overlaps, between the Dunk and Egg stories and ASOIAF. It's getting to the stage where you can't read the one without the other.

[Independent George]

But then what does everyone believe would have been an appropriate response? I am sorry this thread is more argumentative. That was not my intention. I want this to be constructive and thought-provoking.

At some point enough is enough. Robb's actions were a huge insult to the Freys. I would have demanded that Robb's firstborn child is to marry a Frey, along with Edmure, then matches with some Northern lords such as Karstark and Umber, and a lord's heir to be fostered at the Twins. I would not have reacted with violence, but my demand would be high. I would want to make sure it never happens again and that my family will finally be respected. If Robb rejected my terms, I would tell him that he broke his oath and therefore our alliance and I would pull from his war and begin treating with the Lannisters since they were the best option for security.

I wouldn't have accepted any marriage to the Starks, as Robb has proven untrustworthy. Besides which, after Robb is captured and his host destroyed by the Lannister forces, his claim to the North becomes worthless.

I would have accepted Edmure's marriage as compensation for Robb breaking his pact, but still refused to allow Robb's host to cross. I would have sent a Raven to King's Landing as soon as my scouts reported their approach, then refused entry to Robb and Edmure. At this point, Robb is trapped between the Twins and the combine Lannister/Tyrell army, in a hopeless position.

The endgame is the same as the Red Wedding, but with much less blowback.

[Trinket2]

I don't have a problem with the Freys and I don't want them to die. They made an agreement with Robb, they gave him passage and their men, and he broke that agreement, and for a rather poor reason. In Westeros oathbreaking has consequences. Revenge was perfectly warranted.

[David Selig]

Those Freys are all laughed at. Emmon Frey is not even respected by his wife and is basically labeled a pussy in front of others by Jaime. The marriages may take place, but it is partly a dishonor. Nobody wants to marry a Frey. Well, except Edmure for a few hours.

This is ridiculous. Have you looked at the Frey's family tree? They're related through marriage to half the noble Houses in Westeros, including many of the most prestigious and powerful ones. Lannister, Royce, Bolton, Whent, Vance, Blackwood, Waynwood...

Sure, not all of his children got a great match, but given their number, it's hardly surprising. Overall, Lord Frey and his descendants have done very well in terms of arranging good marriages, given that Frey is not a Great House.

[ServantOnIce]

Okay I will be a Frey for a day . . . .

I wake up have me ale and stale bread . .. . then go visit the privy

I put on my gray clothes and my blue shirt with the twins on them . .

We fall out and listen to Ser Hosteen Frey and he yells at us for some wrong . .

We go about the place on patrol . . I am in the woods . . I see something maybe a wolf feeding on a corpse . . maybe the corpse has gold . . hmm

I see it is it a Red Wedding corpse? Naw it is winter now .. those things are gone . . hmm nothing . .

I go back to my horse I hear wait .. . unconscious . . .

Huh why is there a rope about my neck . . . why I am on my horse who are these people

Lem: High Ho, High Ho . .. how are you doing my little Frey?

Me: Wait you are the outlaws, let me go or I will gut you like a fish

Person in hood: You mean like a Trout? A Tully????

Me: No, I wasn't there . . I was out on a mission . .

Dude in Hounds Helmet: What mission???? To kill more of your liege lords? To slay more wolves and trouts? To kill your friends and fellows?

Me: No, No . . I am just a soldier a cousin of the Freys . . I am a Frey but we are a huge family like ..

Person in Hood: Hang Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Me: No . . horse . . ghghhhghgghhghghhghgh (death)

Lem: Search him for gold ..or stags ... let's go . . one less Frey to worry about

Person in Hood: Vengeance one Frey at a time . .

[The Drunkard]

I don't have a problem with the Freys and I don't want them to die. They made an agreement with Robb, they gave him passage and their men, and he broke that agreement, and for a rather poor reason. In Westeros oathbreaking has consequences. Revenge was perfectly warranted.

Well, not on the scale they did. Robb broke his end of the agreement, so they could've broken theirs by retracting their troops and closing off the Twins. It'd be justifiable for them to bleed the Starks a little. But the Red Wedding? The event where they murdered people left right and centre, the event where people who had nothing to do with Robb's screw up were shot in the face, the event where Northerners were burnt alive under massive tents they thought were friendly?

Bit far.

It's like if James punched Dave's dad in the face on the other side of the river. Dave wants to go and help his dad, so he tries to get across the river via my bridge. I ask for one dollar and he promises to give it to me after he helps his dad. He gets across, helps his dad, then gives his dollar to someone else. I, in retaliation, pull out my gun and kill him and his father.

[Little Miss Sunshine]

Emmon would be laughed at whether he was a Frey or a Lannister or a Tyrell. He's not laughed at because he's a Frey. He's laughed at because he's a foolish oaf. It's like Harys Swyft isn't mocked because he's a Swyft. He's mocked because of his coughing.

Don't you mean Gyles Rosby? :) But yes, you're right in all that you wrote :)

In relation to the OP - yes, they were slighted. Yes, they had every right to seek some form of payback (like someone said before about ensuring Robb's heir would have to forcefully marry a Frey and yada yada). The way they chose to get that payback? IMO it was entirely too much considering the slight they suffered.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But then what does everyone believe would have been an appropriate response? I am sorry this thread is more argumentative. That was not my intention. I want this to be constructive and thought-provoking.

I believe that if the Freys had rejected Robb's offer of a marriage to Edmure and had publicly gone to the Lannisters' side in protest, no reasonable person would have blamed them. But that's not what they did. I also don't think any reasonable person would say that they didn't have a legitimate grievance, a grievance that they could have acted on proportionately to the wrong that Robb did them.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what we're discussing or arguing over here. Are you honestly expecting people to say that the Freys weren't wronged, or that they weren't entitled to some payback? Because I don't see anyone arguing that. And asking what you think would have been "appropriate" when we KNOW what they ACTUALLY ended up doing is a little in the vein of talking about the quality of barn doors when the horses are running loose.

<snip>

Excellent points. A serious marriage pact would have been sealed before Robb ever crossed the river, and I'm surprised Catelyn and/or Robb didn't insist on it. Frey was undoubtedly going to turn on Robb at some point anyway, when the tide started turning, and Robb just gave him an excuse. So while Robb wronged the Freys, yes, can we please put to rest the idea that Walder Frey was some hard-done-by victim in all of this? He was just pissed because Robb slighted him before he could slight Robb.

[Howling Mad]

Its clear that the OP is fishing for an answer or answers he/she is not going to get. Robb wronged WF. WF accepted Robb's terms for reconciliation. WF then literally backstabbed Robb. What part of these proceedings is still unclear?

[Castel]

Its clear that the OP is fishing for an answer or answers he/she is not going to get. Robb wronged WF. WF accepted Robb's terms for reconciliation. WF then literally backstabbed Robb. What part of these proceedings is still unclear?

All that remains is a discussion about whether Walder Frey was going to betray Robb anyway, and that's pretty much a personal opinion thing I think.

As for the marriage I assumed that Frey was being his usual proud self. He wanted a large wedding that everyone, including his liege lord would be forced to attend. Which they simply didn't have time for. I don't know if it's done in Westeros but his best option would have been a sort of delayed marriage, with it being consummated and the ceremony happening later on. But like I said, if I was Robb, and I already had my wife, I wouldn't want to hang around the Twins.

[7V3N]

Ok, so a lot of good points made. It seems there is a middle ground for the Frey marriages. Many seem unwanted, but there are a few to some powerful Houses, and more with Houses a bit lower or near the station of the Freys.

I think saying "the Freys would have crossed Robb anyway" is silly. It seems to me that Walder Frey wanted power for his House, and few things would give his House more power than a king in the line, controlling the Riverlands and the North. The Freys in the Twins would have the ear of the North and all of the Riverlands. WF would not shy away from betrayal, but I do not see a reason he would have without Robb's betrayal to him.

Its clear that the OP is fishing for an answer or answers he/she is not going to get. Robb wronged WF. WF accepted Robb's terms for reconciliation. WF then literally backstabbed Robb. What part of these proceedings is still unclear?

Answers? No answers, just a discussion. There is no one truth here my dear Plato. I am here to discuss, not argue. I make my points, they are debated. I am not fishing for answers. I am trying to open the forums eyes to a new perspective that we oft not take--the one of a Frey. Some people agree with what I say, others do not. It is called an opinion and we are all entitled to our own. I have said, the Freys were not right with what they did. But they should have been pissed and should have wanted revenge.