Was Arianne Martell in love with Ser Arys Oakheart?

[Dacie]

There's a world of difference between watching impassively and being asked to participate, but as much as I like Barristan, I honestly can't say for certain how he would have reacted to an order to beat Sansa.

Agree completely with this.

On topic, I think a better question might be "Did she care for him or did she only use/manipulate him?"

I would answer yes to both. She cared but she also had her own agenda. Does that make her a bitch? Nope, not in my book. She's just playing her own version of the game.

[Kittykatknits]

I think your right. After Joffrey ordered Dog to hit him, Ser Dontos beat fruit over her head then the rest of the Kingsguard bear her. Sandor did yell enough and King ordered her stripped. It only stopped after Tyrion walked in.

Oh, I know I'm right. :) I know my dog.

[butterbumps!]


I'm pretty sure the implication is that she is a bitch, not because she slept with someone she did not love, but because she slept with someone only to secure his compliance in her plot to provoke war with the Lannisters, thereby endangering him in the process.


I agree that's probably the intention, but the title is a very inelegant way of stating that. It makes the choice seem either/ or, and that an answer of not really loving him renders her a bitch specifically. Lummel's suggestion of a change is a good one.


So her vagina had some magical ensorceling powers that prevented Arys from thinking for himself? Ha. Ha.


You know, between this and the inspired explanation of Cersei's Vortex of Doom, it's becoming clear that lady-bits are ASOIAF's real WMD's.

[Lady Lea]

Off-topic, but that's actually an interesting question. Barristan served Aerys faithfully during his worst; presumably he was there when Lord Rickard was burned, and when Rhaella was raped, without ever lifting a finger to stop any of it. There's a world of difference between watching impassively and being asked to participate, but as much as I like Barristan, I honestly can't say for certain how he would have reacted to an order to beat Sansa.

that's a good point, I'd love to see more discussion on this (you guys want to make a topic?)

[Ser Arc]

I don't think its a fair to compare Sandor and Arys in regards to whether they were willing to beat Sansa. Sandor clearly had feelings for Sansa. He doesn't seem to have problems beating any other innocents (or killing the butcher's son). Sansa meant nothing to Arys, so he abused her. Therefore, he's an asshole regardless of whether he hit her lightly. A true knight would have drawn his sword against his brothers and escorted Sansa to safety.

[l3ol3o]

Actually, in many ways, I think Cersei's manipulations of men (outside her own brother) are less morally questionable than Arianne's example with Arys. They are more nakedly transparent. The Kettleblacks are under no delusions that Cersei actually loves any one of them and Cersei never bothers with that illusion. At most, she pretends she actually lusts for them. Arianne, on the other hand, actually toys with Arys' emotions.

I agree with you there too. If I was in the AsoIaF world and Cersie, the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, came on to me, red flags would be flying everywhere.

Ary's was toyed with though and for reasons that really make me mad. He swore to protect Mycella and Arianne is manipulating him to put her in danger.

[Kittykatknits]

Ser Arys was an adult and he should have known better. Those white knights swear those vows for a reason you know!

But who is ever safe when there are all those Vaginas around, just waiting to bring a good man down.

:bs:

Aerys was a big boy in full possession of his senses-if he felt that his oaths were more important than sleeping with Arianne, he could have stopped anytime-or, you know not started to begin with? She wasn't holding a sword to his neck or threatening to blackmail him.

Well, I'd thought that Cersei's vagine was The Great Other but clearly I was wrong, it has nothing on Arianne's. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Aerys was a grown man and was perfectly capable of putting on his big boy pants all by himself. He's completely responsible for his own actions.

[Ser Arc]

that's a good point, I'd love to see more discussion on this (you guys want to make a topic?)

Yes. This would be a great topic!

[Faint]

I agree that's probably the intention, but the title is a very inelegant way of stating that. It makes the choice seem either/ or, and that an answer of not really loving him renders her a bitch specifically. Lummel's suggestion of a change is a good one.

That's probably true. The word "bitch" is such an incendiary among the female population. I think it might best be said that Arianne is simply not that good of a person. Her intentions aren't even necessarily evil but she is reckless and irresponsible in a way that has terrible consequences for the people around her (even those she cares about).

[Greatjon_umber]

She, like all the other Dornish women in this story, are far too whorish for my taste. I doubt she actually had affection for the man, she simply used him and felt guilt after it lead to his death. The Dornish are probably my least favorite culture, although the Targs are right up there too. I guess they count as high valyrian or some shenanigans.

[Winter's Knight]

Typical response. You criticize a strong female character on this board and are labeled a sexist.

No honey, what makes you-and the OP- sexist is that you both use a gendered insult to describe a strong female character.

[Lord Martin]

Arienne is selfish, self-centered and a manipulator. So in other words she's just like most other people in Westeros. Whether that makes her a "bitch" or not, is not for me to decide.

She's also incredibly immature and naive about the way the world works. She think's she's worldly, but she really isn't. She can't keep secrets, has no mind for strategy, hates history and its lessons and thinks of the world as if its a fairly tale. In that regard, she's sort of what Sansa might have grown up to be (perhaps minus the promiscuity). But we get to see her learn some harsh lessons in the desert.

When Arys dies, Arienne is upset, very upset. I don't know if she loved Ser Oakheart, but she was upset by his death to the point that I never considered her evil or cruel. She also has a lot of concern for her friends and co-conspirators after they get busted by Areo Hotah. She also learned that she should not have trusted Dark Star.

To me being a "bitch" has a connotation, if not denotation, of malice and/or cruelty. IMO, Cersei is the better candidate. She physically assaults people, lies to them, orders countless deaths, orders/allows others to torture on her behalf and uses her sexuality to manipulate others. But thats just my opinion, I do love to hate on Cersei.

[Lady Lea]

As to your last point, All I'm saying as using sex as a weapon to deceive someone into getting what you want is wrong. I think even feminists can agree on that. Do disagree that both Cersie and Arianne do this?

Oh no, I def agree that they do this.

Is it wrong, though? Well, you think it is. I think it's not. Might be unpleasant, if you get the shit end of the bargain, but it's the game of thrones, and they use whatever weapon they've got.

In real life, though........ another matter

[Lady Lea]

She, like all the other Dornish women in this story, are far too whorish for my taste. I doubt she actually had affection for the man, she simply used him and felt guilt after it lead to his death. The Dornish are probably my least favorite culture, although the Targs are right up there too. I guess they count as high valyrian or some shenanigans.

whoa, whorish??

[Lady Lea]

Actually, in many ways, I think Cersei's manipulations of men (outside her own brother) are less morally questionable than Arianne's example with Arys. They are more nakedly transparent. The Kettleblacks are under no delusions that Cersei actually loves any one of them and Cersei never bothers with that illusion. At most, she pretends she actually lusts for them. Arianne, on the other hand, actually toys with Arys' emotions.

This is interesting, actually. I was always under the impression that even though Cersei did have feelings for Jaime, she manipulated the shit out of him (there was that part where she wanted him to join the Kingsguard, remember?). Did I read it wrong?

[Kittykatknits]

She, like all the other Dornish women in this story, are far too whorish for my taste. I doubt she actually had affection for the man, she simply used him and felt guilt after it lead to his death. The Dornish are probably my least favorite culture, although the Targs are right up there too. I guess they count as high valyrian or some shenanigans.

Whorish?!? So, I guess you prefer your women chaste and pure? Just wow...

[Greatjon_umber]

whoa, whorish??

Pretty sure that's the word I used. Although rather I used it correctly is another story. I was trying to imply she spread her legs to get what she wanted. That's what the book lead me to believe, kind of like how a woman in a brothel will do the same for monetary gain, she just did it with different goals in mind. And for that reason, I can't say I'm a fan of her, or the Dornish in general.

[Ser Arc]

No honey, what makes you-and the OP- sexist is that you both use a gendered insult to describe a strong female character.

Arianne is not a strong female character. She's assertive, but she's not strong.

Edit: Lord Martin describes exactly why Arianne is not a strong character.

[Winter's Knight]

Arianne is not a strong female character. She's assertive, but she's not strong.

Debateable-but I was replying to his/her remark and not really making a judgement call on Arianne.

[Tony Soprano]

I think she did have some small feelings of affection for him, but she didn't love him. Yes, I agree that she was using him for her own agenda, but that doesn't make her a bitch or whatever in my books.

She was playing the game. If you don't know how to play it, you'll most likely end up dead.

Aerys was a grown man and he broke his vows. It's not like Arianne's lady parts have magic powers. He wanted to be with her, so he's also responsible for whatever happened between them. Arianne saw a weak man who she could use and she used him.

If Aerys was so innocent and Arianne was the cruel bitch manipulator who uses her looks to charm whoever she likes, why didn't it work with Balon Swann?