Female characters and and Cersei's penance walk

[The Frosted King]

I dunno, but i wish they extended her walk to the Wall.

Let her traipse up the Kingsroad, seeing the kingdom her plotting and scheming has won her.

[brashcandy]

I agree the women would have felt some shame but I think some would have handled it better than others.

Brienne would have made it but it would have reenforced her feelings about herself and made even less sociable

Arriane and Asha would have taken it more in stride and been able to put it behind them later

Sansa would have reacted and felt much as Cersei.

Sansa, Margery, both Jeynes, Arianne, would all break down from the crushing social shame.

Asha, Dany, Catelyn, even Arya, wouldn't give two shits about it, its just a walk.

These statements are utterly ridiculous, sorry. No woman can emerge unscathed from something as physically humiliating and emotionally traumatic as a walk of shame. Arya's or Asha's perceived "badassness" does not make them more likely to be able to endure something like this. It could break anyone, indeed that's what it's intended to do, break the spirit of a woman, particularly a proud one like Cersei. It's not just a walk. Godsss....

[lilenadheas]

I think apart from the Red Wedding, that was the most excruciating thing for me to read in the series, and a lot of horrible things happen in ASOIAF.

Got to be honest, I did not appreciate this passage, or the possible connotations of it. Usually I'm GRRM's biggest fangirl, but not that day...

I think it would traumatize any female character.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

These statements are utterly ridiculous, sorry. No woman can emerge unscathed from something as physically humiliating and emotionally traumatic as a walk of shame.

At the turn of the century, people were convinced no woman could drive a car.

I wouldn't rule EVERYTHING out, if I were you.

[Greatjon_umber]

At the turn of the century, people were convinced no woman could drive a car.

I wouldn't rule EVERYTHING out, if I were you.

I'm sure there are some strong women out there able to handle that experience. Pretty much all the female characters I remember from the series, however, probably couldn't, with the exception of Arya because she's just too young and wouldn't understand what all the fuss was about. Though it'd never happen to Arya, who would make a child take a walk of shame? That'd be some really really really shitty parenting.

[drigoly]

i think dany would sooner let her dragons burn kings landing with every child in it before she would even consider walking naked through the streets by the order of someone else :/

[lilenadheas]

Not Arianne. She is brave and confrontational and loves men to stare her physicality.

but that's not what it was about? Cersei loved to be looked upon, and have her beauty appreciated. It was one of her only weapons/defences, and as Littlefinger says, the only one that was truly her own. It was brutally used against her, and used to break her spirit.

Women can enjoy being appreciated physically, but its a two sided coin, because many women simultaneously fear being judged by their appearance and found wanting. GRRM was tapping into a prevalent social anxiety of women, and using it to punish a woman who uses her "feminine wiles" to manoeuvre politically.

[Greatjon_umber]

i think dany would sooner let her dragons burn kings landing with every child in it before she would even consider walking naked through the streets by the order of someone else :/

Which is why I pray with every fiber of my being Dany dies somewhere on Essos. Or perhaps on the journey to Westeros, or at the very least, she loses interest and just stays in her savage lands.

[Malgarroth]

These statements are utterly ridiculous, sorry. No woman can emerge unscathed from something as physically humiliating and emotionally traumatic as a walk of shame. Arya's or Asha's perceived "badassness" does not make them more likely to be able to endure something like this. It could break anyone, indeed that's what it's intended to do, break the spirit of a woman, particularly a proud one like Cersei. It's not just a walk. Godsss....

The point there is that Arya is not proud. I honestly do believe that she would not give a shit purely for that reason.

The walk of shame is intended to bring a woman down in the eyes of those around her. Arya does not care what the people around her think of her, especially towards the end of ADWD, she is no-one, truly.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

but that's not what it was about? Cersei loved to be looked upon, and have her beauty appreciated. It was one of her only weapons/defences, and as Littlefinger says, the only one that was truly her own. It was brutally used against her, and used to break her spirit.

Well, that's one of the things about using weapons. They can be turned against you, which is why any combatives instructor will tell you that a knife fight is a dumb idea, usually.

I think that Cersei's approach to the situation differs from Arianne's, if only because Arianne does, indeed, walk around naked for a lark - see AFFC.

[lilenadheas]

It is all about agency. There is a very big difference between walking around naked of your own free will, and being forced to do so.

[MyrcellaHill]

Well, that's one of the things about using weapons. They can be turned against you, which is why any combatives instructor will tell you that a knife fight is a dumb idea, usually.

I think that Cersei's approach to the situation differs from Arianne's, if only because Arianne does, indeed, walk around naked for a lark - see AFFC.

Arianne walks around naked because she chooses too. That's a world of difference between that and being forcibly shaved, stripped and paraded through the streets so that she can be jeered at by a massive throng of angry people. I am not sure how Arianne would react in that situation but I don't think the fact the she walks around naked is proof that it would have less of an affect on her than Cersei.

[Lady Storm]

but that's not what it was about? Cersei loved to be looked upon, and have her beauty appreciated. It was one of her only weapons/defences, and as Littlefinger says, the only one that was truly her own. It was brutally used against her, and used to break her spirit.

Women can enjoy being appreciated physically, but its a two sided coin, because many women simultaneously fear being judged by their appearance and found wanting. GRRM was tapping into a prevalent social anxiety of women, and using it to punish a woman who uses her "feminine wiles" to manoeuvre politically.

While this is true for many (most?) women, it is not true for the ones who do not evaluate themselves based on their desirability. (And with this I don't mean Brianne. She is very troubled by her looks and evaluates herself partially based on it).

I think Arianne with her "Is it coz I'm a woman?" issues would have a problem with it, never mind the fact that she chooses to walk naked around.

Dany has sex in front of, what, a hundred people and is not bothered by it because it's a sign of power and love. Parading naked because you're forced to do so as a show? Not so much power and love.

Not sure about Asha - I think it'd still be a bit humiliating but not nearly so scarring as for most of the other characters.

I'm guessing the ones who wouldn't have a problem with it would be some of the wildling girls or generally women from societies where they are granted respect for being able, not being mothers and maidens (sand snakes? maby)

[brashcandy]

The point there is that Arya is not proud. I honestly do believe that she would not give a shit purely for that reason.

The walk of shame is intended to bring a woman down in the eyes of those around her. Arya does not care what the people around her think of her, especially towards the end of ADWD, she is no-one, truly.

Where did you get the idea that Arya is not proud? Kevan and the High Septon may have designed this to break Cersei's pride, but it doesn't mean that other women are exempt because they are not prideful. The walk of shame is a sexually specific form of violence against a woman- period. Any and all women would be affected - ones with excessive pride or excessive humility and all in between. I really can't believe I'm seeing the same kind of sexist nonsense regarding the ability of non traditional women like Brienne or Arya to bear up under this kind of abuse. They would be just as impacted as any other female.

[lilenadheas]

While this is true for many (most?) women, it is not true for the ones who do not evaluate themselves based on their desirability. (And with this I don't mean Brianne. She is very troubled by her looks and evaluates herself partially based on it).

I think Arianne with her "Is it coz I'm a woman?" issues would have a problem with it, never mind the fact that she chooses to walk naked around.

Dany has sex in front of, what, a hundred people and is not bothered by it because it's a sign of power and love. Parading naked because you're forced to do so as a show? Not so much power and love.

Not sure about Asha - I think it'd still be a bit humiliating but not nearly so scarring as for most of the other characters.

I'm guessing the ones who wouldn't have a problem with it would be some of the wildling girls or generally women from societies where they are granted respect for being able, not being mothers and maidens (sand snakes? maby)

Poor Brienne :bawl:

There are definitely varying degrees of humiliation, but I just found the whole thing very distasteful.

with regards to the Wilding women, I respectfully disagree. They are in a society which is less sexist, but the walk is a penance specifically assigned the female gender. If anything, surely they would get even more of a shock, realizing what they were reduced to by their gender

EDIT: Also, it is not about characters who evaluate themselves on their desirability, rather responding to how they are evaluated by others in their society, ie. based on their desirability

[Malgarroth]

Where did you get the idea that Arya is not proud? Kevan and the High Septon may have designed this to break Cersei's pride, but it doesn't mean that other women are exempt because they are not prideful. The walk of shame is a sexually specific form of violence against a woman- period. Any and all women would be affected - ones with excessive pride or excessive humility and all in between. I really can't believe I'm seeing the same kind of sexist nonsense regarding the ability of non traditional women like Brienne or Arya to bear up under this kind of abuse. They would be just as impacted as any other female.

How is that sexist?

I'm pretty sure stating that EVERY woman would break down like a little bitch is sexist.

Brienne hates the sight of her body, she would crawl up her own ass and die during the walk of shame, it is known.

But Arya is a totally unique individual, she is strong, she is resilient, she does not give a fuck. How can such a statement be sexist?

Jesus Christ every female on this forum throws out the word "Sexist" multiple times in every sentence they type. Not everything is sexism, you ladies really need to get over yourselves. Jesus.

I wouldn't say every. (Not if you want to walk out of this thread with your head attached) but I am beginning to see a pattern emerging here.

[Lady Storm]

Where did you get the idea that Arya is not proud? Kevan and the High Septon may have designed this to break Cersei's pride, but it doesn't mean that other women are exempt because they are not prideful. The walk of shame is a sexually specific form of violence against a woman- period. Any and all women would be affected - ones with excessive pride or excessive humility and all in between. I really can't believe I'm seeing the same kind of sexist nonsense regarding the ability of non traditional women like Brienne or Arya to bear up under this kind of abuse. They would be just as impacted as any other female.

Brienne was raised in a traditional society - the fact that she doesn't fulfill her gender role does not annul that.

Arya was raise more loosely and she continued in a even more gender-neutral tone.

Imagine a guy going trough the same thing. Sure, it's humiliating, ugly and uncomfortable, but the evaluation of a naked guy is... haha funny, look at the guy, ok, let's go drink some ale. He's not being labeled as a failure for life, he didn't have his chastity burned to ground, and if he made a jest and *hung good* he might even be regarded as "cool".

A girl with a similar perspective on herself - my nakedness is not who I am - might react in the same way as the mentioned guy.

You already have a similar thing regarding public nudity, community showering etc.

Where I'm from, laws on sexual harassment aren't as strict as in let's say USA, and it's a generally more patriarchal society.

In here, 11-13 year old guys often pull each others pants down in school, as a jest. Than they laugh and push each other around and it's settled.

On the rare occasion someone does a similar thing to a girl, it ends up in shame, tears and a visit to a principal's office.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

I am not sure how Arianne would react in that situation but I don't think the fact the she walks around naked is proof that it would have less of an affect on her than Cersei.

I eat cheeseburgers every day on my own will, but this person just gave me a cheeseburger that I didn't ask for! This must be a traumatic situation.

Replace "eating cheeseburgers" with "walking around naked" and you'll understand where I am going with this.

[Malgarroth]

I'm gonna have to agree entirely with this post.

If it isn't sexism, it's misogyny. After lurking on this forum for a year or two prior to signing up, I became convinced that a cohort of neo-feminists entrenched themselves in this forum solely to show GRRM the error of his misogynistic, objectifying, sexist ways.

It seems to be the done thing around here, though, so I was a good little Knight and did not voice my concerns about this overwhelming witch-hunt of sexism that the ladies of A Forum of Ice and Fire seem to be running.

Voice from the shadows:

He's a misogynist! Burn him! BURN HIIIIIIIIIIIIIM!

Flee! We must flee!

QFMFT

Just look at any thread that criticizes Daenerys, she's like their patron saint or something.

[Lady Storm]

I eat cheeseburgers every day on my own will, but this person just gave me a cheeseburger that I didn't ask for! This must be a traumatic situation.

Replace "eating cheeseburgers" with "walking around naked" and you'll understand where I am going with this.

Not really.

I have sex of my own free will every day, but if a guy "gave me" sex I didn't want, it would be a traumatizing experience.

Replace "sex" with "walking around naked" and you'll understand where I am going with this.