What had become of Tywin if Stannis had seized King's Landing?

[E-Ro]

Why would Robb want to support Mace Tyrell against Stannis though?

He wouldnt want to, but it would strengthen his position and if he is maried to marg then in a way it is his duty to help defend his wifes house. You make some good points but I feel strongly that if kings landing would have fallen the tyrells woud not have allied with the lannisters. And if they ally with robb he wins.

[Chaircat Meow]

I thought the Florents were the only Tyrell banners to stick with Stannis when s**t hit the fan at Blackwater, because they were married to his cause. But they weren't the only ones he had. It was the infantry of Renly's army that Mace still possessed, a large but ineffective force, many of whose lords were with Stannis.

[Chaircat Meow]

He wouldnt want to, but it would strengthen his position and if he is maried to marg then in a way it is his duty to help defend his wifes house. You make some good points but I feel strongly that if kings landing would have fallen the tyrells woud not have allied with the lannisters. And if they ally with robb he wins.

If it sets him at odds with Stannis then it doesn't necessarily strengthen his position. Marriage to Marge buys him a big friend, Mace, and two significant enemies, Lord Frey and Stannis. It isn't an obvious move by any means.

Maybe I'm wrong to think so many Reach lords went with Stannis but if I'm not Mace's forces are not more powerful than those possessed by Stannis.

[E-Ro]

Why is the infantry "largely innefective"? When the enemy sees all these men marching towards them they will lose heart. Also it is a common misconception that infantry in medieval times was ineffective, it wasnt. They would all be armed armored and trained. Also stannis became his enemy the minute his bannermen crowned him king, so the only ally he loses is the freys. And without the support of Tywin they wouldnt dare do a thing to him except calling back their levies.

[The Frosted King]

Why would Robb want to support Mace Tyrell against Stannis though?

Its not supporting Mace against Stannis, its weakening the threat Stannis would be in the future.

Mace wants his grandchild on the throne.

Stannis holds the city, atop the bodies of the lannister brood.

Tywin won't make peace with those who killed his child and grandchildren.

Mace knows Stannis would hold a grudge for Storms End 15 years ago, and for backing Renly, rather than him.

Two of the great lords in the pot won't/can't ally with Stannis.

Robb holds the largest portion of the realm.

Mace knows that if he weds to Robb, and brings the Reach into the Stark kingdom, his grandchild will hold most of the realm.

And knowing that Lysa is blood to the Wolf, she'll likely bend her knee in support, once it becomes clear he's holding the best cards.

Two kingdoms become three, with the fourth(the vale) soon to follow.

Tywin could declare himself king, but he likely realizes that his position demands invasion, so rather than fight and lose, he'll bend the knee to Stark, where it means he can keep his head.

Stannis is out the question, and even if he did, Stannis likely takes his head, empties his coffers and installs some great lords second son as lord of Casterly Rock.

Robb is the only possibility, and since Joff and Cersei are dead, he can truthfully claim that Eddard Starks death wasn't his wish, and the blood fued has ended.

[The Frosted King]

If it sets him at odds with Stannis then it doesn't necessarily strengthen his position. Marriage to Marge buys him a big friend, Mace, and two significant enemies, Lord Frey and Stannis. It isn't an obvious move by any means.

Maybe I'm wrong to think so many Reach lords went with Stannis but if I'm not Mace's forces are not more powerful than those possessed by Stannis.

Frey isn't a significant enemy in the overall scheme of things.

He actually isn't significant, really at all.

Hence young Tywin speaking out against the match of his sister to Freys younger son.

Frey and Lannister married is the definition of an unequal bonding, but to the second son was inexcusable.

Freys can field maybe 4000.

The Tyrells can field 80,000, and they hold the largest fleet in the realm.

Frey would take Edmure, and shut the front door.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why is the infantry "largely innefective"? When the enemy sees all these men marching towards them they will lose heart. Also it is a common misconception that infantry in medieval times was ineffective, it wasnt. They would all be armed armored and trained.

No they wouldn't. At least not in Martin's world and I don't think at most times in the Middle Ages either, although practice obviously varied a lot throughout the centuries. Look at Ser Jorah's description of Westerosi armies to Dany in the aGoT. He points out most of Rhaegar's army at the Trident were effectively just peasants and would have no chance against the Dothraki and contrasts this with the small proportion of armoured knights.

Seriously though, although I'm sure there would be some full time men-at-arms the knights were a martial class and trained full time whereas their levies were of a wretched quality in comparison.

Ineffective is the wrong word, they're not ineffective if they are used properly, its just that the knights are the main offensive strength of the army.

[Chaircat Meow]

Frey isn't a significant enemy in the overall scheme of things.

He actually isn't significant, really at all.

Hence young Tywin speaking out against the match of his sister to Freys younger son.

Frey and Lannister married is the definition of an unequal bonding, but to the second son was inexcusable.

Freys can field maybe 4000.

The Tyrells can field 80,000, and they hold the largest fleet in the realm.

Frey would take Edmure, and shut the front door.

Frey's position is very important, he is the greatest lord in the Neck and can cut Robb's kingdom in two. I'd call that significant.

As I said, my case does rest on lots of Tyrell banners being with Stannis but, as I said, Clash does say Loras only left with one fifth of Renly's cavalry. Mace's forces are divided and he only has the weaker section.

[Chaircat Meow]

Its not supporting Mace against Stannis, its weakening the threat Stannis would be in the future.

Mace wants his grandchild on the throne.

Stannis holds the city, atop the bodies of the lannister brood.

Tywin won't make peace with those who killed his child and grandchildren.

Mace knows Stannis would hold a grudge for Storms End 15 years ago, and for backing Renly, rather than him.

Two of the great lords in the pot won't/can't ally with Stannis.

Robb holds the largest portion of the realm.

Mace knows that if he weds to Robb, and brings the Reach into the Stark kingdom, his grandchild will hold most of the realm.

And knowing that Lysa is blood to the Wolf, she'll likely bend her knee in support, once it becomes clear he's holding the best cards.

Two kingdoms become three, with the fourth(the vale) soon to follow.

Tywin could declare himself king, but he likely realizes that his position demands invasion, so rather than fight and lose, he'll bend the knee to Stark, where it means he can keep his head.

Stannis is out the question, and even if he did, Stannis likely takes his head, empties his coffers and installs some great lords second son as lord of Casterly Rock.

Robb is the only possibility, and since Joff and Cersei are dead, he can truthfully claim that Eddard Starks death wasn't his wish, and the blood fued has ended.

Well again, you're really good at telling me what is in it for Mace but not for Robb and that's the part of the motivation I'm having trouble with. Robb shackling himself to the riverlands when he wants to be the King in the North is stupid enough but being compelled to defend the Reach too is beyond stupid. At this rate Robb might just as well try for the iron throne which he doesn't aspire to. For these reasons I think the alliance is pretty implausible. And it would set him at odds with Stannis as Stannis claims to be king in the Reach (and everywhere else) and I don't see why Robb would be anything but pleased that Stannis had taken KL. So I'm afraid I'm not convinced Robb would go for a Tyrell alliance.

[The Frosted King]

Because his mother would have remembered the meeting between Stannis, herself and Renly.

And then the outright shady way Renly died.

And warn her son, that a man willing to kill his brother to win the throne isn't a man to be celebrated or allied with.

And each great lord won to Robbs cause means less men for him to potentially fight?

Why wouldn't he want the great lord with the largest, best equipped army in the realm to be intimately wed to his cause?

The Riverlands is a pain to hold due to its touching so many other paramount regions without defensive geography.

Wed the Reach, and the riverlands loses a huge potential enemy, and gains a huge ally.

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

I agree that if Margery Tyrell was thrown in Robs face, he wouldn't hesitate to wed her over the Freys, especially as doing so almost guarantees the success of his rebellion. His promise to Walder means nothing more than what Rob needs to rule his realm, and we see in the third book what his respect for his promises is anyways.

[Martello]

If we assume that Stannis had won against Tywin, I don't think there is any doubt that Stannis would have had him executed as soon as possible. Stannis is well aware that Tywin and his eldest children have committed treason on multiple occasions (Tywin taking Kings Landing from Aerys, the Kingslaying, the incest, and so on), and he does not take kindly to that sort of thing. Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are toast as soon as he gets their hands on them.

I think that Stannis would also make sure that Tyrion gets Casterly Rock afterwards, because:

a) he has no evidence or reason to believe that Tyrion was involved in any of the Lannister plotting up until this point and so has clean hands;

b ) he served on the Small Council with Tyrion, so even if he doesn't like him, he has the measure of him, and Stannis is usually an excellent judge of character (Melisandre aside, maybe);

c) restoring the Rock to the Lannister with the best claim to it ensures the personal loyalty of Tyrion and the general loyalty of the Lannister bannermen;

d) it would be a massive slap in the face to Tywin, which Stannis would think was both justified and funny.

Stannis would also probably seize Sansa, and use her as a bargaining chip to negotiate with Robb. Sansa, a posthumous pardon for Ned, and an offer to marry Bran to Shireen might well be enough to persuade Robb to back down and rejoin the North to the Seven Kingdoms.

[E-Ro]

No they wouldn't. At least not in Martin's world and I don't think at most times in the Middle Ages either, although practice obviously varied a lot throughout the centuries. Look at Ser Jorah's description of Westerosi armies to Dany in the aGoT. He points out most of Rhaegar's army at the Trident were effectively just peasants and would have no chance against the Dothraki and contrasts this with the small proportion of armoured knights.

Seriously though, although I'm sure there would be some full time men-at-arms the knights were a martial class and trained full time whereas their levies were of a wretched quality in comparison.

Ineffective is the wrong word, they're not ineffective if they are used properly, its just that the knights are the main offensive strength of the army.

These books are based on the war of the roses and hundred years war, the infantry are profesional for the most part especially in westeros were the winters are long, they wouldnt risk taking people from their farms. If they just rounded up peasents the armies would be far larger. The peasents in the armies would be equiped by their lord and given at least some training. They woudnt just throw them into combat, how would that even work? See the description of tywins army in agot from tyrions pov.

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

I dont see hard Stannis sharing any love whatsoever for any Lannisters, Tyrion included. For that matter I dont see Tyrion surviving Blackwater in the event of a Lannister defeat. Remember that it was Tyrion who's battle plans had essentially crippled the Barratheon navy. I think its wishful thinking on out part to imagine that Stannis (a character we all want to like) would have spared Tyrion (a character we all like).

[Chaircat Meow]

Because his mother would have remembered the meeting between Stannis, herself and Renly.

And then the outright shady way Renly died.

And warn her son, that a man willing to kill his brother to win the throne isn't a man to be celebrated or allied with.

And each great lord won to Robbs cause means less men for him to potentially fight?

Why wouldn't he want the great lord with the largest, best equipped army in the realm to be intimately wed to his cause?

The Riverlands is a pain to hold due to its touching so many other paramount regions without defensive geography.

Wed the Reach, and the riverlands loses a huge potential enemy, and gains a huge ally.

I think Loras might well remember the outright shady way Renly died, as someone else has already mentioned. He isn't going to allow his sister to marry the man whose mother killed Renly.

I doubt Robb would cut Stannis out from his list of allies because Cat says she saw a shadow shaped like Stannis. Come on, Robb only listens to her half of the time at best, he wouldn't listen to her about this.

I think Robb does feel some sense of loyalty to Stannis because of Ned's support for and friendship with Robert and I don't see him throwing Stannis under the bus for Marge too readily.

As I've said, I'm assuming that if Stannis does take KL and kills Joff he does so possessing at least half if not more of Mace's own cavalry and a good number of his lords. If Renly took all the horse he had from the Reach and the Stormlands (and he clearly had Tarly and Rowan with him, as they are mentioned leaving) and only one fifth desert Stannis, assuming the horse split down 2:3 (Stormlords:Reach, as seems reasonable) Stannis has double the number of knights Mace has.

Also with KL taken Stannis' prestige has grown and his influence in the Reach will be greater. I just don't see Mace as the great kingmaker you do. Yes, his support was crucial but only because Tywin was backing him up and because they took Stannis by surprise. Renly's ghost shows that the loyalty of a lot of Stannis' men was to the hugely popular Renly, not their liege lord.

I don't see the North, the Riverlands and the Reach all stuck together as very sustainable because they would have enemies on all sides and Robb will have to defend Riverrun from Tywin and help Mace deal with Stannis. He's just multiplying enemies as well as friends when he wants to disengage from the war. I'm not saying he wouldn't ally with Mace mind you, just that I don't think its that obvious a move to make.

[Chaircat Meow]

These books are based on the war of the roses and hundred years war, the infantry are profesional for the most part especially in westeros were the winters are long, they wouldnt risk taking people from their farms. If they just rounded up peasents the armies would be far larger. The peasents in the armies would be equiped by their lord and given at least some training. They woudnt just throw them into combat, how would that even work? See the description of tywins army in agot from tyrions pov.

I think we must be using the word professional in different senses. The foot in the hundred years wars and certainly the Wars of the Roses were not professional. They were a hodgepodge of quickly levied men, mercenaries and some permanent retainers. Seriously, no society since Roman times to the seventeenth century keeps large professional forces in any sort of sense I would recognize, not in Europe anyway. If you want to talk Byzantium, maybe.

I wasn't suggesting the foot wouldn't have weapons or anything. But plate armour is really expensive and most of the foot would be poorly equipped compared to the horse and they wouldn't have been in training all their lives like the knights. Many would just be peasants most of the time. Think about how many professional soldiers House Stark has most of time, two hundred by the looks of it (from GoT) and they were the greatest of the Northern houses.

I'm pretty sure Martin does say most of the foot would usually be taking in the harvest actually, in numerous places although I have to concede I can't give you references off hand (I don't have the books with me).

As for Tywin's infantry, GrrM has a thing for old Tywin and says his foot were uniquely well trained and disciplined. They are a testament to the personality of their lord which suggests Mace's boys are probably complete dogshit if you will pardon the expression.

[E-Ro]

You dont seem to understand that stannis is already Robbs enemy. Stannis wants all the seven kingdoms he will not settle for less untill he is completly crushed or dead. Robb loses nothing by marrying marg and gains a huge army. Dorne will do nothing, neither will the vale, this leaves the north, reach, and riverlands against stannises small army at kings landing, and tywins beaten and demoralised army of about 16 to 20 thousand depending on the casulties they have taken. If the reach joins robb he wins no ifs ands or buts. Tywin is practically finnished all they have to do is for the reach to march on tywin and catch him between northmen and reachmen, then starve stannis out of kings landing. the city was already running short on food.

[E-Ro]

Taken from wikepedia:

The Wars of the Roses were fought primarily by the great magnates of the landed aristocracy. These were the royal dukes, marquesses and earls who were relatively few in number; and a greater number of barons, knights and landed gentry.^[6] Besides the huge estates they controlled, many enhanced their wealth by investment in trade and expanded their influence through political marriage alliances.^[5] They were supported by armies of feudal retainers and tenants, sometimes with the aid of foreign mercenaries; this practice of controlling large numbers of paid men-at-arms was known as "maintenance". Besides the size of his private army, a nobleman's prestige was measured by his "affinity" (i.e., those bound by contract to serve him).^[5] The retainer who became a member of an affinity wore the nobleman's "livery" (a uniform and badge) and accompany him on military campaigns; in return, the nobleman would pay him a pension, provide protection and grant rewards such as land or a lucrative office.^[5] This unofficial system of "livery and maintenance" largely came about through the decline of feudalism in the wake of the Hundred Years War to be replaced by what some historians call "bastard feudalism" whereby the retainer did not serve the nobleman as a feudal vassal but as a liveried retainer under contract or indenture.^[5]

Most armies fought entirely on foot.^{[citation needed]} In several cases, the magnates dismounted and fought among the common foot-soldiers, to inspire them and to dispel the notion that in the case of defeat they might be ransomed while the common soldiers, being of little value, faced death. It was often claimed, however, that the nobles faced greater risks than the ordinary soldiers. The Burgundian observer Philippe de Commines reported that once Edward IV had seen that victory was certain on the battlefield, he would call out that the fleeing common soldiers were to be spared but no mercy was to be shown to the lords.

So yes the soldiers would be professional. see also Bastard feudalism.

[Chaircat Meow]

You dont seem to understand that stannis is already Robbs enemy. Stannis wants all the seven kingdoms he will not settle for less untill he is completly crushed or dead. Robb loses nothing by marrying marg and gains a huge army. Dorne will do nothing, neither will the vale, this leaves the north, reach, and riverlands against stannises small army at kings landing, and tywins beaten and demoralised army of about 16 to 20 thousand depending on the casulties they have taken. If the reach joins robb he wins no ifs ands or buts. Tywin is practically finnished all they have to do is for the reach to march on tywin and catch him between northmen and reachmen, then starve stannis out of kings landing. the city was already running short on food.

He comes into direct conflict with Stannis when he still has to deal with Tywin at a time when Stannis has removed the very king Robb was, at least in part, fighting against. Had Stannis won over all of the south hostilities with the northern kingdom may have not been far away but I'm not sure either Robb or Stannis see themselves as in a state of war with each other during CoK.

Also, I'm really not convinced either Robb or Cat think too much about how to secure their new realm in the long run. Robb basically stumbled into being a king and doesn't seem able to think in a broad strategic way, although Cat is better at this.

But like I said, the short term still does matter. With Tywin on his hands Robb doesn't need more enemies and problems on his hands right away.

I can only repeat that I don't agree Stannis's forces are small or insignificant and since I think he possesses half if not more of Mace's banners should he move rapidly into the Reach after seizing KL, Mace, unless he acknowledges Robb as a king awful fast, may have to fold and bend the knee to Stannis.

Tywin's army is about the size of Robb's as I recall, if not larger.

[E-Ro]

Here is another link http://www.wars-of-the-roses.com/content/soldiers_and_warfare_during_the_wars_of_the_roses.htm Its interesting stuff.