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Will Arya end up killing Sansa


MacHawk

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I can't not wait until they are reunited.

Uhoh, reunited you say... I remember what happened the last time Arya was almost reunited with someone in her family, I hope next time isnt a repeat :crying:

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To Ser Hippie - this post from the previous page gives you some good quotes - but no, we are not trying to draw conclusions but exploring the possibility which is, pretty much, what everone is doing with all these posts anyway

I was talking about the argument that Sansa is destined to turn evil/darker/however you want to phrase it.

Those quotes aren't really convincing for the same reasons others have said. The first is when Sansa is really upset over Lady, and she remembers Arya fondly later in the series, even dreaming of having kids that look like her, the second is an obvious joke, and Arya similarly remembers Sansa more positively when they're not, you know, being sisters.

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Uhoh, reunited you say... I remember what happened the last time Arya was almost reunited with someone in her family, I hope next time isnt a repeat :crying:

I actually think that is what will happen, because old dwarf woman spoke of Arya's grief and mentioned Cat, Robb and Sansa.

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Because Daeron, the fraudulent insurance man and the random Bolton guard wronged her family? Again, I'm not saying Arya is evil or is necessarily going to be evil, but let's not sugarcoat the fact she's killed multiple times and is training to be a professional assassin. Generally, hired killers tend to be pretty dark.

She's so gullible she made the point that LF has two personalities - Petyr (who is kind to her, gracious, and friendly) and Littlefinger, the manipulative plotter. She's hardly the airhead she was in AGOT.

And yet, she's not at all like Cersei despite it...

That's because I've asked you to clarify your argument and you haven't. Your stance is "Sansa is around LF who is a manipulative guy, therefore Sansa is clearly going to go bad", with the addendum that she's more likely to do so than Arya, who's actually killing people and being trained (willingly) as an assassin. Until you provide some textual or logical backing for your argument, I don't know how to proceed from "can you explain your actual argument".

And you're engaged in "fervent" speculation with regards to Sansa given that you're ignoring textual references and her PoV chapters because they don't fit into the "Sansa as ASOIAF's Darth Vader" theory.

What? Sansa doesn't grow or learn in King's Landing?

And in her PoV chapters she explicitly notes that LF is manipulative, not necessarily trustworthy and makes her uncomfortable because of how he acts towards her. He also tries to entice her with a major power play when she doesn't want to have power or be important, she wants family, home, safety. Why would she want to emulate him, again?

See above. Not only is "becoming more insightful and calculating" a dubious argument to make given your overall position (i.e. it means she also sees right through LF on several occasions), your second sentence is nothing more than a guess. She did want to be a proper lady w/regards to the Westerosi power structure back in GOT but where is the evidence this is even remotely a goal any more?

So an assassin who's already killed multiple people at a young age being trained by (arguably) the most fearsome of organizations among hitmen isn't a "dark path" but being "insightful and calculating" is?

Yes, except this theory doesn't have any real textual evidence. What reason do you have to argue that Sansa is going to consider sending thousands of people to die so she can become Queen of the North/Vale/Riverlands?

It was a bad analogy but it also was largely the same as your general argument (that LF is Sansa's mentor and because of that he'll corrupt her and turn her evil), and I was pointing out that the specifics are very different. I'm not sure why you're getting so upset, because I wasn't attacking you, only an idea that gets tossed around a lot. Sansa being trained by LF doesn't mean she's going to go evil as a matter of course because she's a very different type of person than those that are often in her position (Anakin, for example, was being manipulated with the threat of Padme's death, his rage over his mother's death, and his incessant desire to become more powerful, etc.).

It's sort of strange you're launching into the angry nerd ad hominem when all I've done is repeatedly ask two questions. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're some angry nerd trying to destroy your place on the forum and since, after reading your latest post, it seems like you misstated your argument (which I still disagree with, but at least now seems more like speculation rather than an unfounded conclusion), I'm not sure why you're so angry.

I've asked two major questions in response:

(1) How Sansa is "clearly" going down a dark path based on nothing but speculation while Arya hasn't and is just sort of in moral limbo?

(2) What textual evidence (not "hey this could happen") is there that Sansa is not only going to get unduly influences by LF but also act on it?

As it is, your argument seems to be "Sansa might be in a position to do a lot of evil and so she's clearly going to because of LF's influence" but there's not much reasoning for why this will happen. It's speculation unsupported by the text, which is why I've been questioning it.

You said

and

Which simply aren't supported by the text. The latter, especially, is very clearly not reflected by her PoV.

This would be whats known as us arriving at an impasse then, dude.

I haven't got the book sat in front of me and even if it was I wouldn't be flipping through it desperately looking for quotes to appease your line of questioning. And frankly I get the distinct impression that even if I did, and did so in good faith, not a word of it would bring you round to my way of seeing things and most importantly, even if you did agree with it, why would it matter? It makes absolutely no difference to me, nor should it to you.

I think you're taking this all faaaaar too seriously, man. Destroy my place on the forum? I've been here two days, and the undermining of one theory I've had is in no way destructive, as you clearly consider it to be. Which may explain why you're clinging on to this tooth and nail despite my increasingly diminished interest.

It was wrong of me to use the present tense when referring to rage and bitterness building inside Sansa, I suppose I was speculating as to the nature of the Sansa we shall read of in TWOW not the one we've met already.

Again, lambast, scrutinize and diminish what I've said as much as you like. What I'm saying/all I've been saying is I believe Sansa, who has gone through a lot of traumatic events and is currently learning at the feet of someone who is essentially a Westerosi Machiavelli is in more of a position to turn "evil" than Arya, who at worst would be a nihilistic sword-for-hire.

If you still have holes to pick or great chunks of derisive sentiment to hurl my way, then it's your problem and yours alone.

And just to be clear, I don't in any way find what you've said offensive, dude. Just that your conviction and tenacity might be better served being focused into something other than what should be a lighthearted discussion about fantasy literature...

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I haven't got the book sat in front of me and even if it was I wouldn't be flipping through it desperately looking for quotes to appease your line of questioning. And frankly I get the distinct impression that even if I did, and did so in good faith, not a word of it would bring you round to my way of seeing things and most importantly,

If you posted quotes in good faith that presented a convincing case, maybe I (and the others who disagree with you) would change their stance, you don't know. Asking for textual evidence in a discussion about a book series is not exactly asking a lot though.

even if you did agree with it, why would it matter? It makes absolutely no difference to me, nor should it to you.

Because a conversation where people present their arguments and make good points that leads to useful conversation is more interesting than people just talking past each other. That is the point of a forum.

Which may explain why you're clinging on to this tooth and nail despite my increasingly diminished interest.

If you still have holes to pick or great chunks of derisive sentiment to hurl my way, then it's your problem and yours alone.

And just to be clear, I don't in any way find what you've said offensive, dude. Just that your conviction and tenacity might be better served being focused into something other than what should be a lighthearted discussion about fantasy literature...

Yes, I'm taking it too seriously, not the one using all sorts of loaded verbiage and calling me an angry nerd. :dunno: If you think my posts are "taking it too seriously", you're not going to last long on these forums, frankly. I've been completely polite, outlined what additional information I wanted about your argument and presented my arguments without attacking you or your intelligence.

Resorting to the "you're an angry nerd" isn't going to get you far anyway, but on this forum there are tons and tons of people who enjoy writing virtual dissertations about minutiae from the books, and there's plenty of others willing to be a lot more aggressive when arguing.

In any case, if you'd simply argued:

What I'm saying/all I've been saying is I believe Sansa, who has gone through a lot of traumatic events and is currently learning at the feet of someone who is essentially a Westerosi Machiavelli is in more of a position to turn "evil" than Arya, who at worst would be a nihilistic sword-for-hire.

You've made an argument that stands up better than where you started (although I don't find it convincing anyway, obviously).

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Arya will not kill Sansa, never happen.

However, it is hard to see/guess where the Arya story arc is headed. I tend to think her list of names will come into her future acts. Likewise, the Sansa arc is becoming convoluted... with 2 books remaining its hard to see where the sisters arcs are going.

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Im finding it hard to fathom why no-one can see the distinction between someone turning evil and someone with the greatest potential to turn evil.

What a coincidence! I'm finding hard to see how someone can keep making statements that Sansa has "the greatest potential to turn evil" with out being able to bring a single piece of evidence from the text to support this argument.

She's been through the most changes and most traumatic events, Arya was always stronger than her and now she's discovered her capacity for killing she can keep herself safe and if she chooses, honest.

They both have their own strengths. Arya is a survivor and has gone through her own horrors but that does not in any way minimize what Sansa went through either. Sansa lived in KL where she was beaten on a regular basis, spied on almost constantly, surrounded by the family that was responsible for the destuction of her own, and emotionally abused. However, she maintained her self-control and dignity, never taking down her "armor of courtesy". That speaks to a level of strength that very few adults could maintain, let alone a child left alone in KL with no one she feels she can trust.

As you've said, Sansa lies to Littlefinger and as I've said; there is an obvious increase in her intelligence and awareness which suggests that Littlefinger may even believe the dd lie of hers here and there, whereas back in Kings Landing where she was purely terrified most of the time, she was unable to lie convincingly to anyone, or at least most of her lies were seen through fairly easily.

Sansa has always been intelligent. She was very good at her studies and has always been a reader. She is incredibly good at reading people. In KL, she recognized that Loras was another kingslayer in the making, a fact that others who were supposed to be much wiser missed. In the Vale, she saw through LF's scheme with Lyn Corbray, is running the Eeyrie household by herself and best of all, LF, who many consider to be one of the smartest men in Westeros, thinks quite highly of her intelligence.

And again, same as Ser Hippie you state that as she has not bloodied her hands she must lack the capacity for evil. This just seems purely naive to me, especially in Martins world where as I said before, violence/death is an everyday part of life and indeed can still be a completely "honourable" affair.

Everyone has the capacity for evil, everyone. However, you seem to be making the case that Sansa is exceptional in this regard and more likely to turn evil than any of her siblings. Again, I ask, do you have a single piece of textual evidence to support this? I don't even need a quote, can you direct me to a scene that shows this?

Just to recap, again: I believe Sansa has the greatest capacity for misdeeds/selfishness/opportunism, not that she is in any way conducting herself in such a manner yet.

And again, you are guessing, supposing, and assuming based upon nothing found in the texts to back up your statements. It's your opinion, with no evidence to support it.

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I think that Sansa and Arya may see each other again, recognize each other (though others may not), and that Sansa may sacrifice herself to protect Arya (or perhaps another Stark). I have no textual proof, just a feeling that Sansa is doomed to fail (no wolf). That said, I think that the purpose of her development with LF is to place her in a position to save someone in her family or to set things in motion to save the family. Whoever said above that Sansa is just like Ned is absolutely correct. But instead of honor and duty being her downfall, it will be her devotion to her family. I think that she is being set up to be a sacrifice by GRRM.

And, in an attempt to end the tiresome argument, neither is any closer than the other to "the dark side." They both have potential to go either way.

OMG! Lonin's post just popped a sad thought into my head: Perhaps Arya will be assigned to kill (or decide on her own to kill) Sandor, and Sansa will intervene, causing her death. Too melodramatic?? :frown5:

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If you posted quotes in good faith that presented a convincing case, maybe I (and the others who disagree with you) would change their stance, you don't know. Asking for textual evidence in a discussion about a book series is not exactly asking a lot though.

Because a conversation where people present their arguments and make good points that leads to useful conversation is more interesting than people just talking past each other. That is the point of a forum.

Yes, I'm taking it too seriously, not the one using all sorts of loaded verbiage and calling me an angry nerd. :dunno: If you think my posts are "taking it too seriously", you're not going to last long on these forums, frankly. I've been completely polite, outlined what additional information I wanted about your argument and presented my arguments without attacking you or your intelligence.

Resorting to the "you're an angry nerd" isn't going to get you far anyway, but on this forum there are tons and tons of people who enjoy writing virtual dissertations about minutiae from the books, and there's plenty of others willing to be a lot more aggressive when arguing.

In any case, if you'd simply argued:

You've made an argument that stands up better than where you started (although I don't find it convincing anyway, obviously).

Thank you for being so forthright. Though to be clear dude, I was never calling you an angry nerd (and I'm really still not), just saying that your posts were beginning to bear the hallmarks of such.

Impassioned, yes. Belligerent, maybe. But I wasn't being pejorative so much as challenging.

Anyway, whilst I'm still not sure that a lot of people here would agree with your sentiment regarding "lasting on the[se] forums" I appreciate and respect that clearly you've been here long enough to cultivate a certain way of challenging someones views that I am not accustomed to.

Next time I'll have something to quote ;) haha

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I dont have the books with me right now, but as far as i remember, Arya saw Sansa smiling just before Joffrey gave the order of beheading Ned Stark. And after that, Yoren told Arya not to look. Did she or didnt she see sansa pleading for her father's life? I think there is some significancy about the way Martin wrote that chapter and your answer lay within that little info.

Unfortunately, i dont remember, so i know i'm not helping :)

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No. Maybe you could make a case if she'd chucked Needle into the drink, but she didn't, and she still has wolf dreams (dreams of her pack), and she stills says the names at night. No way Arya kills Sansa, for so many reasons. Absolutely nothing to suggest that it would happen either.

Whoever says Arya is "amoral" because she's killed people - that doesn't make her "amoral". Arya clearly has morals, I'd say that after Jon snow, she's the most "moral' of her siblings - she has a pretty clear picture of what is right and wrong in her world and she acts on it. And she might be an assassin in training, but how is that different from any knight or brother or the night's watch or maester? All of them do a job, and beacause of it, people die.

I don't think either Sansa or Arya are headed for any kind of darkside. They've both come through some terrible experiences that made them tougher and more mature.

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No. When it comes down to it, Arya cannot suppress who she is - Arya Stark. As much as she hated Sansa for the Joffery incident, that was forgiven way long ago. If there is one strong feature all of the Starks have, it's duty and reverence to the family.

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I don't see Arya killing her sister, because even if Arya and Sansa fought and disliked one another, they were still sisters, the still loved one another and part of the same pack. For those who go off thinking of Arya and the Hounds conversation, the sisters never did anything to one another that was truly horrible intentionally, unlike the Hound whose brother did that knowing that he was ruining his brothers life.

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I like how Arya-Sansa relationship reflects Cat-Lysa in a way.

Cat and Lysa were "close" as kids, Cat was more or less mother to Lysa they always played together they had private language, yet it ended badly.

Arya and Sansa were barely able to be civil to each other, but never really hated each other.

I wonder if with Arya's knowledge of glamours we will see another sisters mess with LF head (he confused Lysa and Cat when he was drunk) Sansa may get her personal evil twin on her disposal, would be funny if we could seen Sansa teaching Arya how to pretend to be her.

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The Kindly Man said countless times that the FM do not kill someone they know. That's why all the sailors and whatnot gave Arya their names, so she'd know them. Why people still think Arya will kill someone she knows is a mystery to me.

I do not think Arya will hold to any "Faceless man code" as she has retained her independent will throughout her training. My original post was meant to stir a discssion about the future Sansa/Arya relationship which is what really fascinates me - the roles they may end up playing. But on the evidence given in various quotes and insights throughout the debate on this topic I would not rule out the possibility that Sansa may indeed head down a dubious path with LF that may bring her into conflict with Aryas' mission. I did not mean that Arya would be on a mission given to her by the Kindly man but she may end up in the service of a Dany although more likely Jon Snow.

To date we have been given some interesting pro arguments that could (and I say 'coulc') bring about the scenario that Arya may be faced with the choice of sticking her sister.

1. The insight of the Hound when he said to her that she also had a wish to kill her sibling

2. the reader who remembered the prophesy of the dwarf witch who was suddenly terrified of Arya and mentioned Robb, Catelyn and Sansa in the same sentence of foreboding

3. Arya was the catalyst for the death of Sansas' wolf (foreboding)

But, having made an argument for the possibility, I do not hold to this outcome as a given at all. I think, however that too many readers are just reacting out of horror at the thought but really, if you are, perhaps you should go back to Tolkien and leave GRRM alone. His twists are not always predictable or likeable.

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Wasn't there a Tolken story that had the hero impregnate his long lost sister who had amnesia and when he found out who she was, he committed suicide by slaying a dragon? And when she found out, she drowned herself?

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