Reading Women In Westoros

[jarl the climber]

Wow. You sound really excited.

It also somewhat ironic that you responded to that with post 666.

[Winter's Knight]

On a practical level I am more concerned with dealing with women on how they actually are in real life. How they are portrayed in any kind of social media whether in books, movies, TV, etc. is merely a deversion from actually having to confront the true reality that are women.

People.it'd be nice if we didn't get sidetracked into discussing the (de)merits of discussing characters from the point of view of gender-this thread exists because posters are interested in such a discussion and I'd appreciate it if this thread doesn't spend five pages discussing the validity of the topic.

If you cannot understand the validity of analysing women in fiction, I suggest you read up on it-google is your friend,

[Elder Sister]

I think it's fine for me to say, "I don't personally like Stannis/Melisandre/Littlefinger." It's only my opinion, and the reader of my post recognizes that I'm aware of the fact that it's only my opinion, and it's therefore subjective, and not really right or wrong.

When I throw something out there as fact, I think that's when people get all bent out of shape. It's not that hard to be civil and nonconfrontational. As much as I adore both Sansa and Arya, it's better for me to model my behavior on Sansa rather than Arya. :)

Regarding the role of women in literature, and your reference to Lucy and Mina Harker in Dracula, I don't really think the analysis of Lucy by the reviewer is wrong when he points out that she's flirty and flighty...I mean, she is. But other than her being female, I don't really see how her sex is relevant. There are plenty of male fictional characters from Victorian/English literature that are shallow and insipid, or just plain dumb. And Count Fosco from The Woman in White is alot of those things that we would assume are 'female' characteristics from that time period, plus he's creepy.

One of the things that I love about GRRM's characters is that no one is safe...he's kind of like the guys on Southpark...there are no sacred cows.

I don't even know if this is on-topic...just what I thought of when I read your thread topic.

[Lyanna Stark]

I wrote something about people's genre specific expectations in another thread awhile ago and it went something like this:

Readers of fantasy in general and perusers of popular culture have certain expectations on works like ASOIAF, and they include reading about stuff like warrior queens, tomboys, badass heroes with Magic Swords, etc. These characters we are used to and we understand them easier (or at least we think we do!), while more internal characters or observers, like Sansa and Cat are more difficult to appreciate since it takes more careful reading and considering to get something out of their chapters. These characters are rarely about action, but about character development and as evidenced by this forum a lot of people think they're just some boring little ladies sitting around not doing very much, i.e. there are expectations of action, of sword waving, or killing, of magic and heroism.

Apart from the fact that characters like Cat, Sansa, Arianne and Cersei are women, which means they have the specific demands on them due to being female "heroines" (I use the term loosely here) they also have genre expectations on them.

Women in fantasy tend to either be spunky, magical, damsels in distress or basically a man with a different gender tag glued on. (Somewhat subverted in some UF but then it's unfortunately often just an excuse for porn.) Unless damsels in distress who are there as an object for the hero to project his desires upon and to act as a reward for the hero when he's been sufficiently heroic, they always have one way or another to fight back with. This can be traditionally by using a sword, or by being a ninja assassin type and throw/wield knifes, or it can be by wielding magic and casting huge fireballs.

This means that Cat, Sansa, etc actually fail not once, but twice, to live up to expectations.

EDIT: Incoherency, can't seem to avoid it.

[Silverin]

I agree what is imporrtant there is no such thing as right way to be a woman.

Though I would like to add that female characters get way more hate if they want an attractive partner (Dany, Sansa), than male ones. Females are shallow and they should smarten up to learn look behind the looks. For men it is compeletly natural and there is nothing wrong with it.

Another thing I would like to add. That while QC sais that every time a girl disobey the patriarch it fails, I have to somewhat disagree that it is entirely the girls fault. For exmple in both the cases of Sansa and Arianne, neither Ned nor Doran gave their daughters the neccesity information. They both thought their daughters should just blindly follow them, and all of their order even if they don't explian them don'T tell them anything why. Let me tell you something neither girls, nor boys in general work that way.

Once I was told, that when a parent is disciplining his her children, and tells them what to do or what not, it is important to tell them why, give them enough information. Else the children (wether it is a girl or a boy) won't see why it is neccesery to follow that order, and well often won't.

Another disobeyings towards parents is Bran who disobeyed Cat and climbed on the towers (he dared to do that because when Ned saw it he didn't stop him btw) and look what happened. Or Robb disobeying to Cat, well that was surely a disaster. Though in both cases it was more like oh mom sure can say all stupid things but I know better (Cat warned Robb about Walder Frey for example).

Or let us see an example when someone follows his patriachs orders and that is why he ends up dead. that was Quentyn. He was a loyal son, too loyal, when Dany turned him down he should have left, but he didn't want to displease his father, he wanted to fulfill what he was given, and got fried.

Well I generaly think that Doran is one of the biggest idiot and Dorne would be better of withouth him. And I think both the Arianne both the Quentyn incident was mainly his fault.

[deleted01]

I don't see the problem in me not liking Sansa because she doesn't fit with my worldview. Sansa is the complete opposite of myself, and while I've stated time and time again that I appreciate and even respect her ability to remain unchanged and optimistic (for the most part) despite all her trials, I cannot understand how someone does that. I'm completely different to her, and while I acknowledge that my reaction probably would have resulted in a quick death, I'd rather "die free than live a slave".

I don't know about female stereotypes in fantasy, as I haven't read much fantasy fiction, but I take the points absolutely. In a way I suppose Sansa doesn't live up to my expectations, but I see nothing wrong with that. We are all very different, with different experiences and views, so it stands to reason that we all have different expectations as well.

As for men, I think there are plenty of stereotypes in ASOIAF. Sam is a big example (no pun intended). As for reader's reactions to him, we all (hopefully) know that chaining your child to a wall is disgusting, but if you were on the battlefield with Sam by your side, you'd see him as a liability. That doesn't occur to me when reading because I'm not in the armed forces, but I have been in situation not so dissimilar to Sansa's, and I know how I reacted. I don't know if acting like her would have made things better, but I would have hated myself for doing so. I'm just saying that disagreeing with how one character acts in a situation doesn't make you a bad person, and seeing as Sansa and Arya are almost completely opposite, it's not surprising that people usually pick one or the other.

Just my two cents (pence?) :)

[ARYa_Nym]

To borrow from The Storm Queen I think Cat can be active very much like Arya is even though she is hated. She's someone who defended herself or others when she deemed it necessary and has killed i.e. Jinglebells but the motivation for the latter is different. They are both impulsive and and can be vengeful.

Totally agree. Catelyn is also a very practical woman who has no qualms to abandon the traditional ladylike lifestyle / way of behaving when the need for it arises. When going to KL she travels like a man and often sleeps in the open. When confronted with the Mountain Clans she does not need a knight to save her but manages to kill one of her attackers herself. People often depict her as a stereotypical mother figure but to me the beauty of her character is that she is so much more.

I just disliked her personality and the whole freeing Jaimie thing.

[butterbumps!]

Regarding the role of women in literature, and your reference to Lucy and Mina Harker in Dracula, I don't really think the analysis of Lucy by the reviewer is wrong when he points out that she's flirty and flighty...I mean, she is. But other than her being female, I don't really see how her sex is relevant. There are plenty of male fictional characters from Victorian/English literature that are shallow and insipid, or just plain dumb. And Count Fosco from The Woman in White is alot of those things that we would assume are 'female' characteristics from that time period, plus he's creepy.

I don't want to speak for QC1, but what I took from the example of Lucy/ Mina was something a bit different. It's not the fact that Lucy is flighty or flirtatious that is potentially questionable, but rather the critic's tone in implicitly condemning this sort of behavior/ personality trait as less worthy than the more chaste and "good" Mina. And I think the assumption for some of us is that these implicit judgments and perceptions of female characters may stem from ingrained tropes and stereotypes throughout literature, which may influence us to summarily consider some female characters more palatable or likable based on these ingrained notions.

Some of the criticism I see against Sansa, for example, stems from the belief that she is more passive or less competent than Arya in part because of her excellence in and enjoyment of "feminine crafts." That Sansa embraces this form of femininity seems to color some perceptions that she is also "silly, an airhead, shallow, stupid, complaisant," despite textual evidence that suggests otherwise. I said this in the other thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Excellence at "feminine arts" does not come at the expense of courage, strength, wisdom or competence (see Athena and even Apollo for that matter). So many readers tend to see Arya and Sansa as polar opposites, thinking that Sansa is helpless or passive while Arya "gets things done," yet looking past the way these two characters express themselves externally, it becomes clear that the sisters are far more alike than it might initially seem. Arya is more palatable to many readers because she eschews what many modern readers believe are "pointless crafts" and because she adopts a more physical expression of defiance, yet looking past this, Arya's journey could be seen as a bit of "damsel in distress" in that during her journey prior to the Faceless Men, there are a string of protector figures who keep her safe and guide her along- she' hardly on her own "getting things done" in the way many readers suggest.

So a thread like this that seeks to analyze the women of the series must by necessity look at gender, because it seems that stereotype and reader expectation has played a large role in forming opinions about some of these characters, lauding some for casting aside typical feminine roles while others are demonized for their femininity (or even motherly instincts, sexual pleasure, etc). It's also very interesting to see how some of the characters relate to other females in the novels. Cat and Brienne's friendship is one of the things that make me like both of these characters even more- Cat does not see or treat Brienne as a freak the way other characters do. Similarly, Brienne sees and respects Cat's honor and decency, and I believe they feel affection for and affinity to each other despite being so superficially different. So I think looking past the swords and skirts starts to show a different image of the women in question- that there is far more similarity and laudable traits that many of the women share despite their expressions of their gender.

[mythsandstuff]

Perhaps when Sansa is Olenna's age, she too will be able to take delight in being snarky, but given her present situation such fun and snark/expressing her true opinions, is a long way off.

Olenna is one of my favorites. Someone in another thread (and I wish I could remember who, to give credit), mentioned that one of Sansa's most feminist qualities is her solidarity with other women (encouraging the women in the Red Keep, warning Margarey). It's fascinating to me the way that I think Margaery (and Olenna) feel sympathy for Sansa, but don't show the same kind of solidarity, in that they use her to advance their own plans. While these plans ultimately free Sansa from Joffrey, they put her at considerable risk of being accused of murder.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cat and Brienne's friendship is one of the things that make me like both of these characters even more- Cat does not see or treat Brienne as a freak the way other characters do. Similarly, Brienne sees and respects Cat's honor and decency, and I believe they feel affection for and affinity to each other despite being so superficially different. So I think looking past the swords and skirts starts to show a different image of the women in question- that there is far more similarity and laudable traits that many of the women share despite their expressions of their gender.

:agree:

They also go through some really terrible things while together. First Renly's murder and then Brienne is the first person Cat tells about her sons being dead. It actually made me really sad that UnCat and Brienne encountered each other like they did, since ASOIAF isn't exactly cluttered with female friendship and I really liked how Brienne and Cat could relate to each other despite being so superficially different.

Olenna is one of my favorites. Someone in another thread (and I wish I could remember who, to give credit), mentioned that one of Sansa's most feminist qualities is her solidarity with other women (encouraging the women in the Red Keep, warning Margarey). It's fascinating to me the way that I think Margaery (and Olenna) feel sympathy for Sansa, but don't show the same kind of solidarity, in that they use her to advance their own plans. While these plans ultimately free Sansa from Joffrey, they put her at considerable risk of being accused of murder.

That might be me, I am a big believer in sisterhood.

It's interesting that you point out that Margaery and possibly also Olenna feel sympathy with Sansa, but don't show solidarity. I'm not sure what Olenna feels since her being ok with Sansa carrying the murder weapon to Joffrey's wedding really makes me doubt both her sympathy and her solidarity. It was a pretty nasty thing to do to Sansa as she really had a lot of shite on her plate already, so to speak.

[brashcandy]

I don't see the problem in me not liking Sansa because she doesn't fit with my worldview. Sansa is the complete opposite of myself, and while I've stated time and time again that I appreciate and even respect her ability to remain unchanged and optimistic (for the most part) despite all her trials, I cannot understand how someone does that. I'm completely different to her, and while I acknowledge that my reaction probably would have resulted in a quick death, I'd rather "die free than live a slave".

No offence, but I guess you believe that it sounds all revolutionary and profound to say something like that, when in reality, "dying free" affects no one but you, and has absolutely no effect or relevance to the adverse conditions you were suffering under. All it means is that you've given up, you've allowed the system to win, and that you probably weren't smart enough to find a way to survive in it in the first place.

Just my two cents.

[brashcandy]

Olenna is one of my favorites. Someone in another thread (and I wish I could remember who, to give credit), mentioned that one of Sansa's most feminist qualities is her solidarity with other women (encouraging the women in the Red Keep, warning Margarey). It's fascinating to me the way that I think Margaery (and Olenna) feel sympathy for Sansa, but don't show the same kind of solidarity, in that they use her to advance their own plans. While these plans ultimately free Sansa from Joffrey, they put her at considerable risk of being accused of murder.

That "someone" would be the amazing Lyanna Stark :)

[Lady Storm]

(I'm not entirely sure this is the topic I should be replying to.)

We expect a lot of things from made-up stories we indulge with.

But one of the major expectations is that we wont someone we can identify ourselves with, and then we want something spectacular (not necessarily good, a meaningful, tragic death is also good) to happen to those characters.

The identification is usually not about who we are, but who we want to be. We choose a character with traits that are somewhat similar to the ones we have, but are the best version of it.

Now this is a point I sometimes find problematic while reading ASOIAF, although I can't (and probably never will) distinguish is it my "fault" or GRRM's.

When I read about female characters like Dany, Sansa, Cat, Arya and Cersei, I tend to understand and sympathize with them, and often feel the need to respond to people criticizing them with "What would you have them do?"

I see how an abused and ignored women who loves her children can get paranoid. I see how a girl with too much power and too little guidance can make terrible decisions while just discovering her sexuality. I see how a kidnapped, tortured, scared girl can take a "Blend in, be careful attitude" and refuse to do something "heroic". And while I understand them and see how I could become them, I don't want to be them.

And then we have characters like LF, Varys and possibly Tyrion or Jon Snow. Now them I want to be. I want to use my cunning to become the grey eminence behind things without repercussions. I want to be the misunderstood, smart guy who gets out of every possible worst-case scenario because people like me or believe me to be competent enough to go on. The only possible female counterpart I see here is Olenna, and we don't really know that much about her and don't get to follow her story, so we don't get to become her (in our fantasies).

It might be me. Maybe it's my preoccupation with wit and sarcasm and success and power and a heroic tale makes me want to be the cool guy.

But what I do see as problematic is that women are portrayed "realistically", with their flaws and up-sides and elaborated upon, and men have their "too cool for school" heroes.

I cannot decide who's the loosing side here: women who are striped of a (certain type) hero, or men who seem to be operating on a much more heroic (and thus, less realistic) character base.

[Ser Flowers]

I am not trying to single you out specifically, Ser Flowers, but I have seen this sentiment, or some variation of it, crop up in similar discussions on the Forum. I absolutely understand what you are saying, and I support your right to discuss the series without a focus on gender issues.

But, seeing as this thread is marked as "Reading Women in Westeros", do you not think it possible that some other posters may actually be very interested in a discussion with just such a focus? Do we not have a right to our discussion, as well?

No I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and yes this thread is obviously made to talk about the women characters in the story. I wholeheartedly support this discussion, I was just stating I hate it when some random troll gets on and starts ranting about GRRM being a sexist and what not.

[deleted01]

No offence, but I guess you believe that it sounds all revolutionary and profound to say something like that, when in reality, "dying free" affects no one but you, and has absolutely no effect or relevance to the adverse conditions you were suffering under. All it means is that you've given up, you've allowed the system to win, and that you probably weren't smart enough to find a way to survive in it in the first place.

Just my two cents.

No I don't, there's no need to be condescending about it either. I was expressing that I would genuinely rather fight and die than accept, or appear to accept, conditions like that. It goes against everything I believe in to give people the satisfaction. As for the last part, you're probably right - like I said, I'm not sure if my way or Sansa's way is better, but it's an explanation as to why I don't understand or relate to Sansa, that's all.

[Elder Sister]

I don't want to speak for QC1, but what I took from the example of Lucy/ Mina was something a bit different. It's not the fact that Lucy is flighty or flirtatious that is potentially questionable, but rather the critic's tone in implicitly condemning this sort of behavior/ personality trait as less worthy than the more chaste and "good" Mina. And I think the assumption for some of us is that these implicit judgments and perceptions of female characters may stem from ingrained tropes and stereotypes throughout literature, which may influence us to summarily consider some female characters more palatable or likable based on these ingrained notions.

Some of the criticism I see against Sansa, for example, stems from the belief that she is more passive or less competent than Arya in part because of her excellence in and enjoyment of "feminine crafts." That Sansa embraces this form of femininity seems to color some perceptions that she is also "silly, an airhead, shallow, stupid, complaisant," despite textual evidence that suggests otherwise. I said this in the other thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Excellence at "feminine arts" does not come at the expense of courage, strength, wisdom or competence (see Athena and even Apollo for that matter). So many readers tend to see Arya and Sansa as polar opposites, thinking that Sansa is helpless or passive while Arya "gets things done," yet looking past the way these two characters express themselves externally, it becomes clear that the sisters are far more alike than it might initially seem. Arya is more palatable to many readers because she eschews what many modern readers believe are "pointless crafts" and because she adopts a more physical expression of defiance, yet looking past this, Arya's journey could be seen as a bit of "damsel in distress" in that during her journey prior to the Faceless Men, there are a string of protector figures who keep her safe and guide her along- she' hardly on her own "getting things done" in the way many readers suggest.

So a thread like this that seeks to analyze the women of the series must by necessity look at gender, because it seems that stereotype and reader expectation has played a large role in forming opinions about some of these characters, lauding some for casting aside typical feminine roles while others are demonized for their femininity (or even motherly instincts, sexual pleasure, etc). It's also very interesting to see how some of the characters relate to other females in the novels. Cat and Brienne's friendship is one of the things that make me like both of these characters even more- Cat does not see or treat Brienne as a freak the way other characters do. Similarly, Brienne sees and respects Cat's honor and decency, and I believe they feel affection for and affinity to each other despite being so superficially different. So I think looking past the swords and skirts starts to show a different image of the women in question- that there is far more similarity and laudable traits that many of the women share despite their expressions of their gender.

I think you and I are saying the same thing, but I did a poor job of expressing myself. Sorry. :) I agree with everything you wrote, although I don't really see that people are 'hating' on Sansa because she's a girl, necessarily, or because she's more into the 'feminine' arts, unlike Arya.

To me, the biggest reason that Sansa is vilified at times is the perception that she is weak, or has taken the easier route. Much like Sam is not a favorite. Don't misunderstand me; that's not MY perception of Sansa at all, but it seems that it's human nature to kick those who show/exhibit weakness.

I dunno - I'm not nearly as bright as some of you are. In any case, it's an interesting topic. :)

[mythsandstuff]

I don't see the problem in me not liking Sansa because she doesn't fit with my worldview.

I'm struggling with my feelings about Cersei right now, and I think part of it is that, while theoretically, my worldview thinks it's important that women be villains too, my expectation is that they not be too villainous, and the extremity of Cersei's villainy makes me feel like the character is written unfairly. Clearly, this is something I need to think through more, because I'm not sure if that's a fair expectation. My point is: I think being open to the ways our expectations might limit our perceptions of characters is a good thing, and makes for deeper, more thoughtful reading. I'm not saying it's for everyone, just that I get a lot out of ruminating on why, exactly, I don't like certain characters, what that says about the characters, and what it might say about me.

[deleted01]

I'm struggling with my feelings about Cersei right now, and I think part of it is that, while theoretically, my worldview thinks it's important that women be villains too, my expectation is that they not be too villainous, and the extremity of Cersei's villainy makes me feel like the character is written unfairly. Clearly, this is something I need to think through more, because I'm not sure if that's a fair expectation. My point is: I think being open to the ways our expectations might limit our perceptions of characters is a good thing, and makes for deeper, more thoughtful reading. I'm not saying it's for everyone, just that I get a lot out of ruminating on why, exactly, I don't like certain characters, what that says about the characters, and what it might say about me.

I'm not gonna touch the subject of Cersei, because that only leads to trouble, but yes, I think you're absolutely right. My way isn't necessarily the right way, it's just the only way I know, and so it affects how I see and relate to different characters. What I do think is wrong is that people are constantly judged for their interpretations and opinions on characters. For the most part, we don't know what anyone else here has been through, and of course our experiences are going to affect how we view fictional characters, which is something that people really shouldn't be judged on.

[brashcandy]

It might be me. Maybe it's my preoccupation with wit and sarcasm and success and power and a heroic tale makes me want to be the cool guy.

But what I do see as problematic is that women are portrayed "realistically", with their flaws and up-sides and elaborated upon, and men have their "too cool for school" heroes.

I cannot decide who's the loosing side here: women who are striped of a (certain type) hero, or men who seem to be operating on a much more heroic (and thus, less realistic) character base.

The way I see it is that people can like the stories they like, and identify with what attracts them the most. But the underlying point to all of this is a misunderstanding of what constitutes a hero/heroine. The "too cool for school" variety is all well and good, but there's also heroism and courage in having quiet dignity and a soft word to offer in place of a strong arm. These qualities don't make someone less heroic, and in some respects, they actually make them more so. I think Martin's text is filled with women and men who do not possess traditionally heroic or "smart-ass" qualities, but nonetheless manage to do some really great things. I wish there was more appreciation to go around for all of them.

[Lyanna Stark]

And then we have characters like LF, Varys and possibly Tyrion or Jon Snow. Now them I want to be.

Hah, owh. Confession: I identify the most with Jaime Lannister, personally, and I have been thinking why oh why for *ages*.

Apparently I wish to be a maimed approaching middle age man with only a vague purpose in life and a strange tendency towards monogamy. I have problems relating to my children, I want to boink my sister and crush on an unattractive woman. I used to be great at stuff but now I am sort of a joke. Oh and I like having attitude problems.

So you know, what gives? Time to see the therapist? :crying:

EDIT: And he's not even female! Woe.