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Maybe R+L=J is not true?


House Martell

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Why would Rhaegar build the ToJ in Dorne (his wife at the time home land) and why would Doran send Troops to aid him after he's done so? Rhaegar's supposedly been "away" with Lyanna for like 9 months, I imagine word would have gotten to Doran his sister has been dishonored. What if Lyanna's suitor was one of the Kings Guard (several of whom were from Dorne) and were also at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Maybe Rhaegar interpreted the prophecy for Lyanna and KG(X) and set up the whole thing. It is a "Song of Ice and Fire", not Wolves and Dragons, maybe the "fire" represents a Sun or fallen star? And a Martell or Dayne is the father of Lyanna's baby (Jon), Which would explain Arthur Dayne being at the ToJ or Lewyn Martell fighting for Rhaegar.

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The ToJ was built in close proximity Summerhall, which was a location Rhaegar often visited, and Starfall, which was the home of his best friend and closest confidant, Ser Arthur Dayne. It makes sense that it was built there.

Doran Martell sent troops to help Rhaegar because Aerys "reminded" him he held his sister in the Red Keep. In other words, Doran sent troops because his sister was being held hostage.

Lastly, R+L=J is true.

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Arthur Dayne being at the ToJ is not really that difficult to explain. He was a member of the Kingsguard, and Rhaegar was the heir to the throne. He was simply sent to do whatever needed to be done there, like Arys was sent to protect Myrcella.

IMO the "Ice and Fire" refers to The Wall/Winter, and dragons. No need to stretch it to fit Dorne in there.

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The ToJ was built in close proximity Summerhall, which was a location Rhaegar often visited, and Starfall,

Summerhall and Starfall are no where near each other. The ToJ is said to be located at the foot of the Red Mountains in the Princes path, pretty much right between Summerhall and Starfall but close to neither.

And if his sister was tossed aside by the prince and threatened by the King why not send troops to KL or fight with Robert to free Elia?

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No, but Lyanna was, and she was Rhaegars captive/ladyfriend/mother of his future child.

Obviously there was some particular reason they needed super-duper security for her, and that kind of duty falls to the Kingsguard.

OK so Rhaegar wanted the child protected but what proof do we have that he actually sired it? Sure it's speculation but so is R+L=J, Maybe he was trying to protect his KG's honor or just wanted to keep the child a secret because of its importance (PtwP)

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Summerhall and Starfall are no where near each other. The ToJ is said to be located at the foot of the Red Mountains in the Princes path, pretty much right between Summerhall and Starfall but close to neither.

Right, what I meant was that it was in relative close proximity to both of those places.

And if his sister was tossed aside by the prince and threatened by the King why not send troops to KL or fight with Robert to free Elia?

Well, first of all, Rhaegar did not toss Elia aside. She was still his wife, and their children were still the heirs.

Second of all, Doran couldn't have thrown in with Robert, because Aerys would have killed his sister. That's the whole point of holding her hostage.

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Well, first of all, Rhaegar did not toss Elia aside. She was still his wife, and their children were still the heirs.

I call getting a new wife and having a kid with her "tossing aside" the first one. And building your new lady friend a tower in your current in-laws neighborhood is a pretty dick move if that was indeed the case.

Also do you know where the Aerys/Doran sending troops event is discussed (I don't doubt you, just want read it myself)

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OK so Rhaegar wanted the child protected but what proof do we have that he actually sired it? Sure it's speculation but so is R+L=J

What's speculation? That he wanted the child protected even though he knew it was someone else's? Of course it's speculation, and it will be until Mr. Martin writes the truth. He hasn't even confirmed that Lyanna was pregnant, so even that is speculation.

And anyway, I'm not sure I can come up with a reason why Rhaegar would assign the man who was arguably the best fighter in Westerso to protect a kid that wasn't his. It's much more likely that any child WAS his, and he had some kind of plan re: the future of Westeros that involved that child.

R+L=J is just as likely as some other theories, and more likely than others, but it's still the best theory we have to go on. All the segments fit together pretty well there, so assigning phantom children to members of the Kingsguard who already have a legit reason to be there by virtue of their position doesn't really make sense.

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I call getting a new wife and having a kid with her "tossing aside" the first one. And building your new lady friend a tower in your current in-laws neighborhood is a pretty dick move if that was indeed the case.

Also do you know where the Aerys/Doran sending troops event is discussed (I don't doubt you, just want read it myself)

Mistress =/= wife. There's just as much evidence to support Lyanna being Rhaegar's legal wife as there is that she delivered his baby and Jon is it. That is to say, there is none right now, so we have to assume the obvious. She's his mistress, and Elia is his legal wife.

Yes, I know there's a precedent for polygamy among Targaryens, but really we've been given nothing to support the theory behind a legal marriage.

I thought the ToJ was already there? I don't remember where it says he built it specifically for Lyanna?

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I call getting a new wife and having a kid with her "tossing aside" the first one.

Elia couldn't provide him any more children, so her function in the marriage was served. She would most likely retain all the rights and honors of being Rhaegar's wife, which is all the Martells could have expected.

And building your new lady friend a tower in your current in-laws neighborhood is a pretty dick move if that was indeed the case.

I don't think there's any evidence he built it for Lyanna. Also, it may very well be that Elia didn't mind Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. The Dornish were more tolerant of extramarital flings, after all, and there's nothing to say that Elia truly loved Rhaegar.

Also do you know where the Aerys/Doran sending troops event is discussed (I don't doubt you, just want read it myself)

It's in Jaime's fifth chapter:

"The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad."

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And anyway, I'm not sure I can come up with a reason why Rhaegar would assign the man who was arguably the best fighter in Westerso to protect a kid that wasn't his. It's much more likely that any child WAS his, and he had some kind of plan re: the future of Westeros that involved that child.

If Rhaegar believed the child was PtwP even if it wasn't his his he would want it protected.

I thought the ToJ was already there? I don't remember where it says he built it specifically for Lyanna?

I thought he built it (not 100% sure), either way why bring her there and throw her in your in-laws face?

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Yes, I know there's a precedent for polygamy among Targaryens, but really we've been given nothing to support the theory behind a legal marriage.

What about the Kingsguard staying at the Tower and not leaving with Viserys. If Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard then he would not be entitled to anything and th Kingsguard's duty would be with Viserys.

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What about the Kingsguard staying at the Tower and not leaving with Viserys. If Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard then he would not be entitled to anything and th Kingsguard's duty would be with Viserys.

The Kingsguard's duty was wherever Rhaegar and Aerys told them it was. Even if they had a moral problem with whatever was going on, they were still expected to obey the wishes of the King and the heir to the throne.

There's plenty of evidence of KG members going along with something they find morally reprehensible because it's their job, so it's not as though imagining Rhaegar ordering them to stay put is all that far-fetched.

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What about the Kingsguard staying at the Tower and not leaving with Viserys. If Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard then he would not be entitled to anything and th Kingsguard's duty would be with Viserys.

Right, and I'm pretty sure the Dornish laissez faire attitude about extra-marital affairs doesn't include public kidnapping and bringing a Northern lady all the way down to Dorne to keep in a "love shack".

Also Jaimie was pretty much a "hostage" of Aerys too and Tywin brought his force to KL and kicked ass.If Rhaegar had just dissed Elia and Aerys threatened her Lewyn could have done the same thing.

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The Kingsguard's duty was wherever Rhaegar and Aerys told them it was. Even if they had a moral problem with whatever was going on, they were still expected to obey the wishes of the King and the heir to the throne.

There's plenty of evidence of KG members going along with something they find morally reprehensible because it's their job, so it's not as though imagining Rhaegar ordering them to stay put is all that far-fetched.

This still doesn't explain why they stayed at the tower after Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon were dead. A Kingsguard's first duty, according to Barristan, is to guard the king. After the Sack, Viserys was supposedly their new king, and was left without Kingsguard protection. Why didn't they move to his aid? Were they expected to stay at that tower forever?

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The Kingsguard's duty was wherever Rhaegar and Aerys told them it was. Even if they had a moral problem with whatever was going on, they were still expected to obey the wishes of the King and the heir to the throne.

There's plenty of evidence of KG members going along with something they find morally reprehensible because it's their job, so it's not as though imagining Rhaegar ordering them to stay put is all that far-fetched.

The Kingsguard knew that Rhaegar and his children by Ellia as well as Aerys were all dead. At that point their duty is to protect the current King which assuming that Jon is just a bastard would be Viserys. Ned even calls them out on this and they respond "the Kingsguard does not flee". They were protecting the current King because Jon was Rhaegar's oldest surving legitmate son.

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