Maybe R+L=J is not true?

[Dragonfish]

Yes this would be in violation of their vow and what every "explanation" ignores is that these are men not robots. Ned rides in and says "I was at the trident where your best friend died, Jamie (who's on our side now) killed your king, and your prince has run away. So why don't you just bend the knee to me here and we can avoid any unpleasantness"

They respond: "we are the KG (the baddest MoFos around), we don't run from anyone. you killed our king (who we vowed to protect), now we are going to kill you.

Jamie broke his vow, so obviously KG can do it without spontaneously bursting into flames.

This argument ignores the fact that they explicitly state they are upholding their vows. We aren't arguing the Kingsguard wouldn't have broken their oaths because they're "robots" or something, we're arguing that they wouldn't have broken their oaths because they directly state they wouldn't.

Plus I still say they could engage the North 7 and fulfill any vow they need to, the two acts do not have to be mutually exclusive.

You're right, they don't. As I've said before, they could easily have sent one of their number to Dragonstone at any time

If they did need to go to Dragonstone why would this small engagement negate that

Because the boy who is supposed to be their king is in eminent danger. I would think the Kingsguard would understand how to prioritize.

how long do you think "the battle at the ToJ" took, days? no prob over pretty quick. And I don't think those 3 guys went into any fight thinking they were going to lose.

If they didn't think they could lose, then they were stupid. Even the best warriors can lose against the worst, if the conditions are right. And in this case, they were three against seven, which is bad odds no matter how good a fighter you are.

[Ygrain]

Come on now, you're saying they'd brake their vow for one guy and not another, that's rather convenient. Ned was the right hand man.

No that is not what she's saying at all. What she's saying is that without a child there, there is no real reason for the KG to think Ned is a threat to Lyanna by herself. HOWEVER that they may not have felt the same way if it was her estranged fiance trying to get to her as opposed to her brother. And yes at that point I do think that who the man was makes a difference if what we are discussing is the possibility that it was only Lyanna in the tower and the KG were staying to protect just her. Ned would not have been a threat under those circumstances where as Robert definitely could have been (especially if Lyanna left and wasn't kidnapped), if the KG are not blindly following orders.

The potential presence of a child changes things because then your point actually works, that regardless of whether it is Ned or Robert, both pose a threat to the child and his claim to the throne, because there is no guarentee from the KG POV that Ned will protect the child or his rights.

As atpthornton says.

Or they just really want to kill Ned and his rebels

Yes this would be in violation of their vow and what every "explanation" ignores is that these are men not robots. Ned rides in and says "I was at the trident where your best friend died, Jamie (who's on our side now) killed your king, and your prince has run away. So why don't you just bend the knee to me here and we can avoid any unpleasantness"

They respond: "we are the KG (the baddest MoFos around), we don't run from anyone. you killed our king (who we vowed to protect), now we are going to kill you.

This is simply not what was happening. That whole dialogue is about duty and vows, there is never expressed any grudge towards Ned (unlike towards Jaime). This is the dialogue of men who share and understand the same codes of honour, and act out of necessity forced by those codes.

If the dialogue was done more explicitely, it might go something like this:

Ned: “You were at none of the places you were supposed to be – you were not defending the Crown Prince, you were not defending the King, you were not leading the last Targ resistance, you are not with the king now – WTF are you doing here?”

KG: “We’re KG and we have duty here. We can’t let you in. Therefore, fight is inevitable.”

Ned: “And I have to get in. Fight is inevitable.”

Jamie broke his vow, so obviously KG can do it without spontaneously bursting into flames. Plus I still say they could engage the North 7 and fulfill any vow they need to, the two acts do not have to be mutually exclusive. If they did need to go to Dragonstone why would this small engagement negate that, how long do you think "the battle at the ToJ" took, days? no prob over pretty quick. And I don't think those 3 guys went into any fight thinking they were going to lose.

If they have no KG duty at ToJ, the fight is excessive. And, above all, Ned should have encountered there two guys, not three.

As for Jaime, it might be worth noticing that his action is considered not only totally honourless but also totally unexpected. Unimaginable.

[Maxpey]

You could argue,

After the birth of Aegon and then discovering that Elia could no longer bear children, Rhaegar realized that he must have been wrong about Aegon and Aegon's siblings being the three heads. He figured if he was wrong about himself being TPTWP, he could have also been wrong about Aegon.

He does more research and discovers that prince could mean boy/girl to the Valyrians.

He later meets Lyanna, falls in love with her, and decides she could be the answer to him still fulfilling the prophecy. He marries her so that their children would still be princes and princesses, and once Lyanna became pregnant he figured that this child being a literal, "Song of Ice(Stark) and Fire(Targaryen) had to be TPTWP whether is was a boy or girl.

BOOM!!! There you go. :smug:

I don't personally believe it, and still prefer my own theory, but it is a valid argument. :cheers:

Thank you, kind Lady!

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

As far as the KG is concerned, trying to reason with you is pointless, because you are only viewing this as a stand alone situation. You will continue to provide unsupported scenarios, since we cannot present the actual vows, and you refuse to acknowledge the context clues surrounding the ToJ conversation. Everyone else is using other conversations within the text among the KG and other members involved to interpret this conversation. You believe that the KG could have been upholding their vows by attempting to kill Ned and his men, since their king had been killed. Those of us reflecting on other references to the KG within the text feel this cannot be true. You believe the KG could have attacked for vengeance, but based on other conversations in the text among the KG this is hard for others to believe. The KG oath has not been revealed in the text, probably due to the ToJ incident and GRRM not wanting to give away to much information, but there are many clues in the text that allude to its content.

You have failed to provide any factual basis for your argument, but you seem to ignore this whenever it is pointed out to you. I could easy say, maybe Rhaegar was bi-sexual, but I have no evidence supporting that theory.

Although we cannot definitively prove R+L=J, it is supported by the text.

[Maxpey]

As far as the KG is concerned, trying to reason with you is pointless, because you are only viewing this as a stand alone situation. You will continue to provide unsupported scenarios, since we cannot present the actual vows, and you refuse to acknowledge the context clues surrounding the ToJ conversation. Everyone else is using other conversations within the text among the KG and other members involved to interpret this conversation. You believe that the KG could have been upholding their vows by attempting to kill Ned and his men, since their king had been killed. Those of us reflecting on other references to the KG within the text feel this cannot be true. You believe the KG could have attacked for vengeance, but based on other conversations in the text among the KG this is hard for others to believe. The KG oath has not been revealed in the text, probably due to the ToJ incident and GRRM not wanting to give away to much information, but there are many clues in the text that allude to its content.

You have failed to provide any factual basis for your argument, but you seem to ignore this whenever it is pointed out to you. I could easy say, maybe Rhaegar was bi-sexual, but I have no evidence supporting that theory.

Although we cannot definitively prove R+L=J, it is supported by the text.

You're not responding to me, right? ^_^

[House Martell]

I saw this on another thread and had to share, posted by Buried Treasure:

What I find most significant about the way the fight went is that the kingsguard could have easily negated the numerical advantage by using defenses. They had a tower - which would have had things like walls, doors and staircases (very useful for defense!). Instead they chose to fight on open ground before the tower - which meant that some or all of them were guranteed to die, given the odds. (This is where I differ from the majority opinion on the forums as I think the reason for them making this choice was that they were seeking an honourable death in combat rather than surrendering or going into exile. I don't think they were intending to deny Ned & Co entrance to the tower as much as forcing Ned to deal with them first).

[maria underfoot]

A bit off the topic here, but regardless of whether the theory is true or not, I think that Jon will remain what he is: LC of the Night's Watch

So many people say that Jon is Azor Ahai, or TPTP or the person that will ultimately sit on the Iron Throne, but I think that none of that is EVER going to happen. I just don't see it, and cannot explain how so clever people who are so good at interpreting the smallest details think that Jon will break his vows -again!- despite his oath to himself.

For one, Jon may well be dead, or may be resurrected as unJon, or warg into Ghost, or become a shadow serving Melisandre or whatever.

If he lives, he'll be as committed to his vows as he was when he refused Stannis. He turned down Stannis's offer, even though the thought of Winterfell appealed to him, because he knew he'd never feel like he deserved the honor, he'd never really belong, being a bastard and all.

Do you think anything will change if he finds out he's a Targaryen? He'd still be a bastard, and it's been PROVEN that his bastard birth makes him feel unworthy of ruling. (not to mention that Jon Targaryen soundes as weird and unnatural as Jon Stark does). He refuses to rule Winterfell, even though there are no living male relatives, simply because he's a bastard. What makes King Jon's fans think that he'll accept to rule the WHOLE realm, when there is a living relative? Won't he feel the same way he felt about Winterfell? Won't the thought of Ghost put him off opting for the throne? And his oaths, which he's vowed to never break again? Will his brothers release him just like that? And what about his "honor"?

So many questions. The way I see it, and i have Jon's thoughts and actions to back me up, he'll never leave the night's watch. And I see no reason why he should. He and Dany incorporate the "perfect teen heroes", pretty and young, and "rightful" and oh-so honorable. Martin has proved that he likes the unconventional routes. I don't think that Jon's been through so far as a bastard and a man of the Night's Watch, only to become the King and live happily ever after. Those two things mark him, he cannot just make them disappear.

I'm not questioning R+J, cause I'm pretty convinced it's true. I'm saying that it ultimately won't matter in Jon's story.

[Budj]

If he is Dayne's son (however doubtful) it definitely adds way more meaning to "as the red star bleeds"

[Dragonfish]

He turned down Stannis's offer, even though the thought of Winterfell appealed to him, because he knew he'd never feel like he deserved the honor, he'd never really belong, being a bastard and all.

That wasn't the only reason. Stannis was asking him to renounce his belief in the old gods and burn the weirwoods. Ghost's return reminded him of his commitments, both to the Night's Watch and to his gods. Presumably, accepting the Iron Throne would not come with a requirement to renounce his gods (though this is not to say that I believe he will truly sit the Iron Throne).

Do you think anything will change if he finds out he's a Targaryen? He'd still be a bastard

Not necessarily. A lot of people on these boards believe Rhaegar and Lyanna married, which would make Jon legitimate. And if Aegon turns out to be fake, as I believe, then that'd make Jon the heir to the Iron Throne.

So many people say that Jon is Azor Ahai, or TPTP or the person that will ultimately sit on the Iron Throne, but I think that none of that is EVER going to happen. I just don't see it, and cannot explain how so clever people who are so good at interpreting the smallest details think that Jon will break his vows -again!- despite his oath to himself.

Well, first of all, the bolded portion is a little patronizing, and is especially uncalled for given that your own (mis)understanding of the details of the story basically invalidates your argument.

Second of all, you claim here that you don't think Jon will be AA/PWWP or king, but your argument only addresses whether or not he will be king. Do you have any reasons why you don't think he will be AA/PWWP?

[The guy from the Vale]

We'll see how Jon values his vows after being stabbed repeatedly.

Also, according to at least one theory, Azor Ahai must be the LC of the Night's Watch. That's because if Lightbringer is the sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn, the fire that burns against the cold, Azor Ahai can only wield it by commanding the crows.

[maria underfoot]

That wasn't the only reason. Stannis was asking him to renounce his belief in the old gods and burn the weirwoods. Ghost's return reminded him of his commitments, both to the Night's Watch and to his gods. Presumably, accepting the Iron Throne would not come with a requirement to renounce his gods (though this is not to say that I believe he will truly sit the Iron Throne).

Not necessarily. A lot of people on these boards believe Rhaegar and Lyanna married, which would make Jon legitimate. And if Aegon turns out to be fake, as I believe, then that'd make Jon the heir to the Iron Throne.

Well, first of all, the bolded portion is a little patronizing, and is especially uncalled for given that your own (mis)understanding of the details of the story basically invalidates your argument.

Second of all, you claim here that you don't think Jon will be AA/PWWP or king, but your argument only addresses whether or not he will be king. Do you have any reasons why you don't think he will be AA/PWWP?

Apologies, I really did sound hostile....I seem to have taken out on this topic all of my annoyance at random stuff of my everyday life..

I'll paraphrase: I don't think that Jon will ever be King for the reasons mentioned. I also think that, while he could eventually prove to be AA, he won't *really* act on it, if it involves breaking his vows, for the same reasons.

If being AA doesn't involve Jon leaving the NW - and that is, if he survives-, I see Jon as spending his years on the Wall and accomplishing achievements more important than those of every king or queen in the realm: saving the people from the ultimate danger, the Others. He undoubtedly has an important part to play, even if it doesn't involve his becoming a King or forging a magic sword.

Anyway, that's all speculation, considering the fact that nothing has been confirmed and that for all we know Jon might be lying dead in some frozen cell on the Wall.

Sorry again for the aggressiveness and have a nice day/night/afternoon or whatever it is where you're living ;)

[Dragonfish]

I'll paraphrase: I don't think that Jon will ever be King for the reasons mentioned.

I didn't really take issue with most of your post, since a lot of it was just opinion that isn't contradicted by anything in the text. But I do take issue with the sentence I've quoted above. Your argument that Jon cannot be king is based on flawed assumptions. You claim that he would reject the throne because he wouldn't have a right to it, but this argument is based on the idea that Jon is truly a bastard, which I have shown is not necessarily true. Furthermore, the idea that Jon would stick to his Night's Watch oaths, even after the other Night's Watch members tried to assassinate him, doesn't really strike me as plausible. Don't get me wrong, it's possible that Jon will never be king; I just don't think the argument you've presented provides a convincing case for it.

[maria underfoot]

I didn't really take issue with most of your post, since a lot of it was just opinion that isn't contradicted by anything in the text. But I do take issue with the sentence I've quoted above. Your argument that Jon cannot be king is based on flawed assumptions. You claim that he would reject the throne because he wouldn't have a right to it, but this argument is based on the idea that Jon is truly a bastard, which I have shown is not necessarily true. Furthermore, the idea that Jon would stick to his Night's Watch oaths, even after the other Night's Watch members tried to assassinate him, doesn't really strike me as plausible. Don't get me wrong, it's possible that Jon will never be king; I just don't think the argument you've presented provides a convincing case for it.

I don't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, even if it did happen, would ever be recognized. First of all, I've heard everyone saying that it was known for Targaryens to take many wives and that kind of staff, but at the time it wouldn't have been acceptable for Rheager to marry two women and consider the child of his second wife a trueborn son. Besides, there's nobody to testify that a marriage actually took place (Howland may know what happened at the TOJ but he won't really come out in the world shouting "Rhaegar married Lyanna, he didn't just sleep with her") Point is there's actually no evidence to persuade Jon that he is not a bastard, especially with Dany and Aegon (fake or not) making their appearance, so he is bound to have all the misgivings and doubts he experienced when considering Winterfell. (BTW, you stated before that another reason for his refusing Stannis was the whole religion issue, but it is clear that what he ultimately made the decision when he remembered that Ghost was different from the other direwolves, thus that he himself was different, a Snow, not a Stark. That was the breaking point).

I agree that he won't exactly forgive his brothers, but on the verge of a possible attack from wights in Hardrome, they'll all probably reunite and sort of mend their relationship, in which case he'll realise what role he's chosen to play

[Dragonfish]

First of all, I've heard everyone saying that it was known for Targaryens to take many wives and that kind of staff, but at the time it wouldn't have been acceptable for Rheager to marry two women and consider the child of his second wife a trueborn son.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that it wouldn't have been acceptable. Or rather, I think it's unreasonable to assume that no one would have accepted it. Certainly some would have objected, but others would probably have recognized it, if only so they could get into Rhaegar's good graces. A similar dynamic might play out in Jon's story: though his parentage may not be absolutely provable, those with an interest to see him put on the throne will back him.

Besides, there's nobody to testify that a marriage actually took place

How do you know this?

Point is there's actually no evidence to persuade Jon that he is not a bastard

I'm certain that if Jon hears it from Howland Reed, who he knows to be a close friend of Ned's, then he'll eventually come to believe it.

(BTW, you stated before that another reason for his refusing Stannis was the whole religion issue, but it is clear that what he ultimately made the decision when he remembered that Ghost was different from the other direwolves, thus that he himself was different, a Snow, not a Stark. That was the breaking point).

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean his thought process will be the same if he's faced with claiming the Iron Throne, because it may very well be that he really is the heir to the Targaryen dynasty. Again, I'm not saying that he will actually claim the throne, I just don't think your particular argument against the idea is very convincing.

ETA: Oh, and I just re-read the scene, and it's clear that Ghost's reminding Jon of the weirwood trees, and by extension, the old gods, also played a major factor in his decision process.

[Mladen]

I have to repeat one more time. For me, this is not completetly true. R+ L = J + A.

[Dragonfish]

I have to repeat one more time. For me, this is not completetly true. R+ L = J + A.

Again, it's not possible. The timeline doesn't work.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

You're not responding to me, right? ^_^

Of course not! :P I was speaking in general about arguing the point of the KG with House Martell.

I saw this on another thread and had to share, posted by Buried Treasure:

Buried Treasure made good points, as always. I could also use her post to support my viewpoint, so thank you for posting it.

I don't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, even if it did happen, would ever be recognized. First of all, I've heard everyone saying that it was known for Targaryens to take many wives and that kind of staff, but at the time it wouldn't have been acceptable for Rheager to marry two women and consider the child of his second wife a trueborn son. Besides, there's nobody to testify that a marriage actually took place (Howland may know what happened at the TOJ but he won't really come out in the world shouting "Rhaegar married Lyanna, he didn't just sleep with her") Point is there's actually no evidence to persuade Jon that he is not a bastard, especially with Dany and Aegon (fake or not) making their appearance, so he is bound to have all the misgivings and doubts he experienced when considering Winterfell. (BTW, you stated before that another reason for his refusing Stannis was the whole religion issue, but it is clear that what he ultimately made the decision when he remembered that Ghost was different from the other direwolves, thus that he himself was different, a Snow, not a Stark. That was the breaking point).

I agree that he won't exactly forgive his brothers, but on the verge of a possible attack from wights in Hardrome, they'll all probably reunite and sort of mend their relationship, in which case he'll realise what role he's chosen to play

I personally believe Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a weirwood, and Bran will see it. He will then relay it to Jon.

[Swordsaint]

Jon has to be Rhaegar's child. Ned being as honorable as he is, would have at least told Cat if things were otherwise. Because either way he's breaking a promise. I'm sure he would rather tell Lyanna's secret then be seen as un-faithful. And at the same time save Jon some of Cat's ridicule. Other wise next time I watch Ned's head get lopped off I'll laugh because he's just "that" stupid.

Edited: for more clarification.

[ledlevee]

I personally believe Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a weirwood, and Bran will see it. He will then relay it to Jon.

Another possibility is Bran could hear Ned praying about it in front of a weirwood. I think that may be more likely, since Rhaegar and Lyanna were probably married at or near the Tower of Joy, where there are no weirwoods I know of.

[nQthing]

I know everyone is set on "the seed is strong" so jon can't be a targ because he doesn't have targ features and has more stark features than the other stark children. But the targ silver hair and purple eye feature doesn't make you a targ. There has been some characters in passing that have the targ look but isn't a targ (jorahs whore), and some characters without the targ look and is a targ (daeron)