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The Wild Wolf.


The Roaring Bear

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So you're saying it's just "boys will be boys"? This wasn't going out on an adventure, he went to the King's Court and threatened death to the crown prince.

Have you seen the movie Thor? You know at the start where the Frost Giants break into Asgard Odin kills them and then wants to asses the situation. But reckless Thor gathers his friends, and against Odin's wishes goes to Jotunhiem and confronts the Frost Giants which starts a chain of events that lead to all out war? Well that's what Brandon did, only he didn't have someone like Loki manipulating him into it.

Yeah... and I'm saying thats what the culture expected him to do. Again, you're being ethnocentric.

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Also notice that he did not go alone but had other young knights with him, and not just his own bannermen but men from the Vale etc. Showing again, how this was seen as acceptable.

No only showing that Brandon had a few equally reckless friends.

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Behaving recklessly is just his style? Threatening to kill people, let alone the king's son is just how Brandon rolls? If he had bothered to investigate, he likely would have been told that rhaegar and lyanna were in love and planning some weird targaryen polygamy and that his house was not even dishonored. So, he gets himself and his dad killed which leads to war. But, we can't criticize? This is the definition of stupidity.

"Weird Targaryen polygamy" would not dishonor House Stark, you think? Not when Lyanna was promised to the heir of House Baratheon? How do you think explaining things to Robert would have gone, anyway?

Brandon's threat to kill Rhaegar was directed at Rhaegar, who he assumed was in the Red Keep. And why not? What did Brandon know about Rhaegar's agenda? About Brandon's style, yes - that is his style. It's how he rolls. It's how many people roll, actually, knights and lords and princes, in aSoIaF. We meet several people who are blunt and disrespectful to their superiors when angered, or even when calm. For instance, Bronn is that kind of person towards Tyrion, and Tyrion himself, towards Joffrey. Usually this happens when the person in question doesn't learn that being blunt to your superiors has its consequences, which makes sense. Brandon was the heir to Winterfell and he never had any major quarrels with a King before. And we know that it's not a sign of stupidity, because Tyrion isn't stupid, and neither is Bronn.

If Brandon had been the second-born son, then probably he wouldn't have done the entire shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die thing, because he'd have been taught to answer to his elder brother. But he was the top dog in the north, and he had good reason to be pissed off.

Maybe that does make him stupid, being angry at the wrong people and showing it... perhaps he should have made an inquiry, like Tyrion promised Oberyn about Elia. He should have asked a few people around, perhaps hit up ol' Jon Con with a raven, or Arthur Dayne, if they knew whether Lyanna loved Rhaegar first. Then he should have ridden to King's Landing with a formal petition signed by the Lords of House Stark, Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, requesting that Lyanna be returned. No doubt, it would have never worked, but he might have gotten out of King's Landing alive...

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Yeah... and I'm saying thats what the culture expected him to do. Again, you're being ethnocentric.

If it was what the culture expected him to do then Hoster Tully and his father wouldn't have tried to discourage him from doing it.

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Again, they werent his peers, they were Lords with responsibility they were not a part of the youth culture. Brandon was like a Knight-errant.

My parents told me drinking till 6am when I was in college and had a midterm the next morning was a bad idea, yet my peers all did it and expected it of me as well, because it was part of the youth culture. You may say thats stupid, but I managed to drink my way to a masters degree from the third oldest English speaking University.

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Again, they werent his peers, they were Lords with responsibility they were not a part of the youth culture. Brandon was like a Knight-errant.

My parents told me drinking till 6am when I was in college and had a midterm the next morning was a bad idea, yet my peers all did it and expected it of me as well, because it was part of the youth culture. You may say thats stupid, but I managed to drink my way to a masters degree from the third oldest English speaking University.

Wow, that's all . . . completely irrelevant. A better example of your analougy would be that his parents told him not to drink and drive, but all of his mates were doing it and so that's what he did and he crashed the car, got arrested and his Dad had to pay his bail and then was unable to get to work due to lack of a car.

Brandon wasn't just "acting a fool cause he was young", he unilaterally took actions that had repercussions for the standing of his entire family and he did it directly against the advice of his Lord father.

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Its actually more relevant than your analogy. They only 'advised' against his choice, no parents in their right mind would let their son say "I'm going off to drink and drive" then just 'advise' him not to. This indicates that they did not see this as a death sentence. My analogy "I dont think you should stay up drinking all night before this midterm" is more accurate because the worst that could happen is I fail a test, I learn a lesson but I'm able to move on. No one seems to have thought Brandon would be killed for this, again indicating that it was acceptable, seen as, fine whatever, its a bad idea, but youre a little lordling, youll just get a slap on the wrist and be sent on your way.

hindsight is 20/20 sir. Again, no one seems to have thought anything so severe would occur, and the only reason why it did was because there was a mad king on the throne. It was a curve ball. Thats what I am arguing, it is easy say "well that was stupid" when you know the outcome. I'm saying you cant call someone stupid because he didnt see a monkey wrench getting thrown into his spokes.

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If it was what the culture expected him to do then Hoster Tully and his father wouldn't have tried to discourage him from doing it.

First of all, you can't compare the Tullys to the Starks. Even amongst the prominent Houses there's a pecking order. Maybe I need to re-read those parts, but I don't remember anyone cautoniong him. Secondly, the Tullys may react differently because that's their personality, as we saw when the Mountain was ravaging the Riverlands and Hoster Tully had the aggrieved go to King's Landing and petition the King.

But to think that you can dishonor a major House and get away with it is unrealistic. Maybe if that House was weak, but the Starks are not. So again, if it had been any other major House whose daughter had been kidnapped, they would've went to King's Landing and demanded her return. I can't tell you what language would'be been used, but I doubt it would've been, "Can you pretty-please return our daughter?"

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Its actually more relevant than your analogy. They only 'advised' against his choice, no parents in their right mind would let their son say "I'm going off to drink and drive" then just 'advise' him not to. This indicates that they did not see this as a death sentence. My analogy "I dont think you should stay up drinking all night before this midterm" is more accurate because the worst that could happen is I fail a test, I learn a lesson but I'm able to move on. No one seems to have thought Brandon would be killed for this, again indicating that it was acceptable, seen as, fine whatever, its a bad idea, but youre a little lordling, youll just get a slap on the wrist and be sent on your way.

hindsight is 20/20 sir. Again, no one seems to have thought anything so severe would occur, and the only reason why it did was because there was a mad king on the throne. It was a curve ball. Thats what I am arguing, it is easy say "well that was stupid" when you know the outcome. I'm saying you cant call someone stupid because he didnt see a monkey wrench getting thrown into his spokes.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see any basis for your argument in the text.

You say that Brandon was culturally expected to do it, and yet everyone around him tried to stop him from doing it. Then you say it was the "youth culture" and yet if that was the case surely young Robert Baratheon would have been right there beside him.

It's not hindsight to say that what Brandon did was reckless, because everybody else knew it was a reckless thing to do beforehand and that's why they actively tried to stop him.

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When Ned sends a force to bring Gregor Clegane to justice, Varys or Petyr feel it is a mistake to not put Loras in this group. They feel that being a Tyrell, his family gives him a certain amount of protection..Brandon likely thought the same, he is heir to half the kingdom, they gotta mind him to a certain degree. Problem is that Gregor and Aerys are way to ridiculously insane to care about stuff like that.

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Well we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see any basis for your argument in the text.

You say that Brandon was culturally expected to do it, and yet everyone around him tried to stop him from doing it. Then you say it was the "youth culture" and yet if that was the case surely young Robert Baratheon would have been right there beside him.

It's not hindsight to say that what Brandon did was reckless, because everybody else knew it was a reckless thing to do beforehand and that's why they actively tried to stop him.

Fair enough, we have pretty much just been repeating ourselves.

I will comment on the bolded part above though, and this, more so than anything else is complete speculation, but I would imagine that Robert didnt go with Brandon because it was Brandon's responsibility. Yes, others went with him, but it may have been out of place for his younger brothers friends to tag along (even though said younger brothers friend was betrothed to the girl in question). Or, and what I believe the more likely reason, but again complete speculation: Jon Arryn had a hunch things werent going to play out well, and so he prevented Ned and Robert from leaving the Vale.

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In such a situation - what else could Brandon do? Remember the Straks all think at this point that Lyanna has been kidnapped and being raped by the son of a man the realm knows to be mad. Should they have sent a negotiation team and waited for ravens to fly to and from king's Landing while Lyanna was being raped? Should Brandon have listened to Hoster Tully and give Rhaegar all the time he needed with Lyanna? Would anybody in his situation? Brandon saw the fastest way to free his sister was to challenge Rhaegar to a duel and thats what he did - There was nothing stupid about it. The only stupid person I see in this whole situation is Rhaegar - did he really expect he could abduct the only daughter of the Starks without there being any consequences? BTW I dont believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar - No woman in the world could ever be able to love a man whose father just killed her father and brother

Note: I am a huge Stark loyalist and completely hate the targs so I could be a little biased

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When Ned sends a force to bring Gregor Clegane to justice, Varys or Petyr feel it is a mistake to not put Loras in this group. They feel that being a Tyrell, his family gives him a certain amount of protection..Brandon likely thought the same, he is heir to half the kingdom, they gotta mind him to a certain degree. Problem is that Gregor and Aerys are way to ridiculously insane to care about stuff like that.

I think this a far better way to analyze the situation then just saying that Brandon was an idiot. Brandon was after all heir to nearly half of Aerys's kingdom (i.e The North) and found his House being disrespected in a major way. He probably thought that would give him leverage. He didnt count on Aerys being a pshycopath.

A little apart from the topic, I find it odd that nobody blames Rhaegar the least bit on these forums. I think what he did was truely foolish even if Lyanna went willingly.

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I am in the camp of Brandon Fans. His decision in hindsight can be called foolish, but in his eyes his sister was kidnapped and he went to King's Landing to declare trial by combat with the person responsible. As an older brother I can relate. If I thought my sister was kidnapped I would do what I thought was needed. I think he was advised against it because the other Lords knew at this point Areys was unstable, not that trial by combat was not an acceptable form of handling the situation.

Also everyone jumps to the "Rheagar is wonderful" POV's and ignore the possibility that he was just a loon who believed too much in prophecies. Or that Robert was telling the truth and he kidnapped and raped Lyanna (not likely but there are two versions out there and the truth is probably in the middle). However, when it comes to Brandon a vast majority seem to gravitate towards the he was a "big dumb jock" POV's and ignore the other with a "Well those are biased attitude". I tend to think he was a hot headed, more passionate Ned which would be the middle ground between the Lady Dustin POV's where he is a jerk, and Ned's hero worship.

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Also everyone jumps to the "Rheagar is wonderful" POV's and ignore the possibility that he was just a loon who believed too much in prophecies. Or that Robert was telling the truth and he kidnapped and raped Lyanna (not likely but there are two versions out there and the truth is probably in the middle). However, when it comes to Brandon a vast majority seem to gravitate towards the he was a "big dumb jock" POV's and ignore the other with a "Well those are biased attitude". I tend to think he was a hot headed, more passionate Ned which would be the middle ground between the Lady Dustin POV's where he is a jerk, and Ned's hero worship.

Just to clarify, I do not think that Rhaegar was "wonderful". In my mind Rhaegar and Lyanna share the vast majority of blame for the tragic events that transpired due to their eloping.

But that does not make Brandon's actions any less foolsh. Brandon was sepcifcally counceld against going to King's Laniding and none of his own family or even Lyanna's betrothed went with him. His actions were foolish from the start and this is not hindsight because everyone else saw it beforehand.

It is a chain of stupid descions, Rhaegar and Lyanna acted stupidly, which caused Brandon to act stupidly which caused Aerys to react stupidly and thus The War of the Usurper.

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In such a situation - what else could Brandon do? Remember the Straks all think at this point that Lyanna has been kidnapped and being raped by the son of a man the realm knows to be mad. Should they have sent a negotiation team and waited for ravens to fly to and from king's Landing while Lyanna was being raped? Should Brandon have listened to Hoster Tully and give Rhaegar all the time he needed with Lyanna? Would anybody in his situation? Brandon saw the fastest way to free his sister was to challenge Rhaegar to a duel and thats what he did - There was nothing stupid about it. The only stupid person I see in this whole situation is Rhaegar - did he really expect he could abduct the only daughter of the Starks without there being any consequences? BTW I dont believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar - No woman in the world could ever be able to love a man whose father just killed her father and brother

Note: I am a huge Stark loyalist and completely hate the targs so I could be a little biased

I fully agree with this. What Rhaegar did in stealing Lyanna is essentially an act of war. Do people expect the Starks to just sit back and go ok, steal our daughters. The only way to prevent war at this point is to ask for the trial by combat and it's essentially Brandon's duty to do this. Could Brandon have done it a little more tactfully? Sure I guess so, but he didn't know that Rhaegar wasn't there and he didn't know the fragile paranoid state of mind and epic madness of the Mad King. His decision to demand trial by combat was the right decision, its either that or war.

What is more interesting is to think about is what if Lyanna did go willingly like people like to theorize. If that is the case she is essentially equally to blame for the whole war as Rhaegar. As running away with her supposive lover would foreseeably cause what exactly did happen, war. She would have known Brandon would come after her. The least she could have done was told someone so that he wouldn't, which maybe she did? (Benjen). I think it does work well with the whole Rickard Stark southern ambitions theories too. What if he actually partial orchestrated the whole thing and wanted Rhaegar/Lyanna to happen for an excuse to start a war? Hence the odd advice given by Hoster to Brandon to do nothing and wait, cause is that really an option? Brandon wasn't in on the scheme, and the Lords (Jon Aryn, Hoster Tully, and Rickard Stark) overestimated their ability to keep him in check.

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He always sounded like a super hot headed, cocky, awesome warrior, who was also a dickhead. So I definitely would have liked him and wish we knew more about him.

:agree: Except I wouldn't have liked him. He sounds a little like the Old Jaime, and I never liked him.

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The only stupid person I see in this whole situation is Rhaegar - did he really expect he could abduct the only daughter of the Starks without there being any consequences? BTW I dont believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar - No woman in the world could ever be able to love a man whose father just killed her father and brother

Note: I am a huge Stark loyalist and completely hate the targs so I could be a little biased

Stark bias aside, what I find mind-boggling is that Rhaegar would actually have the audicity to kidnap/run-off with the daughter of one of the most powerful houses in Westeros. For a guy who everyone calls a gentleman and all-around great guy, that is a pretty provocative act.

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