Tywin as a battle commander

[Chaircat Meow]

Just to clarify, I think Tywin did not lose a game of strategic chess to Robb.

He stayed at Harrenhal in order to defend KL from Stannis (who he considered the biggest threat) and maybe Renly. He didn't want to remove himself from playing for the Iron Throne by going west (like Robb). He didn't have an objection to fighting Robb in the west though. Robb and the Blackfish might have been confident they knew the land but the Westerlings in all likelihood knew it better and would be supported by their strongholds and fortresses. Robb only had 6,000 horse and no infantry, not a flexible force.

Tywin leaves to fight Robb when he hears Stannis is at SE, and likely to be there for a long time with only half of Renly's old army. The Tyrells are not on board with him but have no claimant of their own. Tywin didn't bottle his waiting game therefore, the waiting game had become irrelevant in light of this information and his actions just flowed naturally from his original plan.

Edmure may have saved him from blowing it all (or he may not) but this was only fair in a sense, seeing Mel's habit of dropping supernatural assassins from her nether regions was the only reason Tywin's calculations were awry in the first place.

Robb deserves no credit for any of this.

[David C. Hunter]

IMO, I think Tywin is a great lord, leader and politician. He is a shitty father and an overrated battle commander.

He is brilliant in the fact that his tactics are brutal and that no one else would think to do it. Burn down a city of innocents to get one man, sack a city just to prove loyalty, allow clegane to rape a murder a woman and her children just to prove loyalty, killing people at a wedding just to end a war faster. IMO, They aren't brilliant plans they are just massacres. Regardless of what Tywin said Robb was winning until the Greyjoys interfered. Tywin never beat Robb in the field and like a coward he killed him at a wedding. If it was not for the Greyjoys, the North would have won.

The battle was all but over before Tywin came and saved the day during the Battle of Blackwater.

I just don't see his brilliance in the field. He was a great Hand of the King and is probably very good with money, but I believe Robb, Stannis, Tarly and Ned are all better Commanders than Tywin

[jarl the climber]

Tywin was actually forced to stay at Harrenhal in order to stop Robb from rejoining his armies and moving towards Kings Landing from the North. When Robb moved West he eliminated this possiblity in Tywins mind because he felt that Bolton was to cautious to do something as bold as that on his own initative. Whether confronting Robb was his real intention or whether the whole movement was a feint to deceive Stannis is unclear. Probaly if he heard negotiations with the Tyrells had failed he would have gone West but being near the headwaters of the Blackwater gave him the option of a quick move to the East.

[Mulled Wino]

What happened to Little Orphan Annie? It gave me flashbacks to my childhood every time I saw it.

I guess i got restless. I dont really like this one. She might be back.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tywin was actually forced to stay at Harrenhal in order to stop Robb from rejoining his armies and moving towards Kings Landing from the North. When Robb moved West he eliminated this possiblity in Tywins mind because he felt that Bolton was to cautious to do something as bold as that on his own initative. Whether confronting Robb was his real intention or whether the whole movement was a feint to deceive Stannis is unclear. Probaly if he heard negotiations with the Tyrells had failed he would have gone West but being near the headwaters of the Blackwater gave him the option of a quick move to the East.

Not sure how Tywin would stop Robb reuniting the armies if Robb could use the Twins.

But if Robb threatened KL it would make sense to stay at Harrenhal sure.

But I think Tywin stayed at HH for a long time after Robb gave clear indications he was not going to join Bolton so Tywin remained there for other reasons, in my view because he was worried about the south and also hoped Robb might return from the west without doing too much damage and face him nearer KL.

I never considered the whole attempt to cross Tully land might be a feint to lure Stannis to KL!

[Ned's Epic Beard]

If Tywin was a good battle commander then Robb was a good politician

[Chaircat Meow]

IMO, I think Tywin is a great lord, leader and politician. He is a shitty father and an overrated battle commander.

He is brilliant in the fact that his tactics are brutal and that no one else would think to do it. Burn down a city of innocents to get one man, sack a city just to prove loyalty, allow clegane to rape a murder a woman and her children just to prove loyalty, killing people at a wedding just to end a war faster. IMO, They aren't brilliant plans they are just massacres. Regardless of what Tywin said Robb was winning until the Greyjoys interfered. Tywin never beat Robb in the field and like a coward he killed him at a wedding. If it was not for the Greyjoys, the North would have won.

The battle was all but over before Tywin came and saved the day during the Battle of Blackwater.

I just don't see his brilliance in the field. He was a great Hand of the King and is probably very good with money, but I believe Robb, Stannis, Tarly and Ned are all better Commanders than Tywin

So Tywin saves the day and changes the course of the war in a single battle but this doesn't count as evidence that he is a pretty good (i.e. as good as anyone else) battle commander? I'm not seeing the logic.

The Greyjoys don't affect the war in the south. They have no impact on Robb's campaigns until after Blackwater, which by your own admission decided the war for the lannisters so...

Tywin defeats the Reynes and Tarbecks, defeats the Tully's early in the war of the five kings by duping Edmure among other things, beats Bolton at the Green Fork and wins the most decisive battle of all outside KL.

Tarly bloodied Robert's nose once, at Ashford. Not decisive by the sounds of it. Oh, yeah, and he wins an engagement against some forces Bolton fooled into launching a suicidal raid.

Stannis defeats some wildlings and the iron fleet but loses to Tywin and attempts a pretty dumb amphibious assault on KL.

Ned won the battle of the bells (although we don't know exactly who was in command) and we don't know many details either, such as the size of the armies and so on. Taking Tyrell's surrender doesn't count.

Robb wins one battle against totally untrained levies commanded by an imbecile and one important victory over an overconfident general, who had to split his army into three due to the nature of the terrain and even then only due to his mommy taking advantage of an erratic old man.

Seriously, if you want to say Tywin is overrated what about this lot?

[jarl the climber]

Not sure how Tywin would stop Robb reuniting the armies if Robb could use the Twins.

But if Robb threatened KL it would make sense to stay at Harrenhal sure.

But I think Tywin stayed at HH for a long time after Robb gave clear indications he was not going to join Bolton so Tywin remained there for other reasons, in my view because he was worried about the south and also hoped Robb might return from the west without doing too much damage and face him nearer KL.

I never considered the whole attempt to cross Tully land might be a feint to lure Stannis to KL!

THe only thing that gave me this idea was someone and I can't remember who said it but it was something to the effect that Tywin attacked Stannis when he thought he was a thousand leagues away. Tywin also held the South side of the Ruby Ford and Bolton was North of this on the other side of the River, it doesn't make sense for Robb to rejoin his army North of the Trident and march against Tywin at the Ruby Ford as that would give Tywin a favorable posistion to defend from. If Robb could have met up with Bolton at Harrenhal he would be South of the Trident which is the last major natural obstacle between him and Kings Landing.

[Chaircat Meow]

Ah, I didn't realize an assault on HH wasn't advisable coming down the east side of the Green Fork.

Well I suppose staying at HH puts you in a position to stop a juncture at Riverrun if Robb just told Bolton to cross by the Twins. I'm not sure what the point was his army staying up there as Moat Cailin can defend itself and Tywin wasn't going to invade the north.

[Ragnorak]

Just to clarify, I think Tywin did not lose a game of strategic chess to Robb.

He stayed at Harrenhal in order to defend KL from Stannis (who he considered the biggest threat) and maybe Renly. He didn't want to remove himself from playing for the Iron Throne by going west (like Robb). He didn't have an objection to fighting Robb in the west though. Robb and the Blackfish might have been confident they knew the land but the Westerlings in all likelihood knew it better and would be supported by their strongholds and fortresses. Robb only had 6,000 horse and no infantry, not a flexible force.

Tywin leaves to fight Robb when he hears Stannis is at SE, and likely to be there for a long time with only half of Renly's old army. The Tyrells are not on board with him but have no claimant of their own. Tywin didn't bottle his waiting game therefore, the waiting game had become irrelevant in light of this information and his actions just flowed naturally from his original plan.

Edmure may have saved him from blowing it all (or he may not) but this was only fair in a sense, seeing Mel's habit of dropping supernatural assassins from her nether regions was the only reason Tywin's calculations were awry in the first place.

Robb deserves no credit for any of this.

How did Tywin not lose that game of chess? Tywin wanted to stay at Harrenhall. He was well supplied and in striking distance of both Robb and Stannis. Robb attacked him in his own backyard forcing him to leave the security of Harrenhall and leave KL open to attack by Stannis who Robb would be fine with taking KL. Tywin thought the west was secure but Robb bypassed the defending castle and used mountain passes. Robb made a chess move that forced Tywin to react in a way that Robb wanted and predicted and Tywin did not want or predict.

Tywin had to defend the Westerlands the same way Robb had to return to the North when the Iron Islands invaded. If Stannis is the dangerous how does a seige of SE make KL safe? It isn't like Stannis is the one being kept inside, he can leave whenever he wants. Plus the castellan's concern over the fate of a single bastard child was the only reason SE wasn't joining Stannis who is actually the rightful heir to SE. Hardly a guarantee Stannis will be unable to march on KL.

[Chaircat Meow]

How did Tywin not lose that game of chess? Tywin wanted to stay at Harrenhall. He was well supplied and in striking distance of both Robb and Stannis. Robb attacked him in his own backyard forcing him to leave the security of Harrenhall and leave KL open to attack by Stannis who Robb would be fine with taking KL. Tywin thought the west was secure but Robb bypassed the defending castle and used mountain passes. Robb made a chess move that forced Tywin to react in a way that Robb wanted and predicted and Tywin did not want or predict.

Tywin had to defend the Westerlands the same way Robb had to return to the North when the Iron Islands invaded. If Stannis is the dangerous how does a seige of SE make KL safe? It isn't like Stannis is the one being kept inside, he can leave whenever he wants. Plus the castellan's concern over the fate of a single bastard child was the only reason SE wasn't joining Stannis who is actually the rightful heir to SE. Hardly a guarantee Stannis will be unable to march on KL.

In a nutshell because Robb does not force Tywin to come west, rather other circumstances, unrelated to Robb, mean that a march to the west is now not contradictory to the strategy Tywin was pursuing from the get go.

Tywin wants to stay at HH because it is the best place to be to keep his options open as to how he will respond to the multiple threats Joffrey faced. He was always going to leave it at some point, saving in the very unlikely event both Stannis and Robb came to attack him there at different times.

Robb's victories in the west give Tywin an additional reason to leave HH yes, although the situation was not that dissimilar after the end of GoT. Tywin would still want to confront Robb eventually and re--open his communications and supply routes to the west, to raise more levies if necessary and so on.

I'm sure its explicitly said (I can't recall by who, probably Tyrion) that Stannis is a cautious methodical commander who will not leave a major fortress, of the prominence of SE, in his rear. Look at the number of men Aerys had tied up besieging it in the last war and the importance Connington now attributes to it. Tywin may not know why Penrose is so stubborn, all that matters is he refuses to yield and it seems implausible he will just change his mind having already defied Stannis. For this reason Tywin thinks he has a window where Stannis will not move to KL and he knows sieges of SE last a long time. It doesn't even matter if you agree with this calculation or not, the point is Tywin gets what he wants after Renly's death, or he thinks he does, the split in the southern army, and the siege of SE. The south is temporarily neutralized and so there is no reason to hug HH and he can go and deal with Robb.

There is no indication he was opposed to doing this all other things being equal, I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fight in the westerlands, whatever Robb thinks. Robb only wins a game of chess if he tempts Tywin to do something he really doesn't want to do, but Tywin only wants to stay at HH so he can react to whichever threat is currently most pressing and at that juncture that threat was Robb given Stannis promised to be inactive for a long time. Previously this was not the case as Renly was at least advancing, albeit slowly, up the Rose Road.

Only Mel threw this set of calculations out.

Edit. Unless Tywin actually wanted to just wait while Stannis took SE and possibly tried to round up the Tyrell's or secure his positions in the Stormlands before going for KL, attacking Robb at this juncture was the logical move to make. I'm sure Tywin would have preferred, on balance, not to go so far from HH but I don't see him leaving for the west at this point as contrary to the essence of his plan. An attack in the western riverlands at this point would have made sense, why not a further campaign into the west.

[Kittyhat]

Basically, Tywin was an overrated battle commander whose incompetence elevated Robb to the status of even more overrated battle commander.

But what Tywin was really overrated as was as a man. He was worthless garbage and deserves to be remembered as such.

[Ragnorak]

With all due respect, this is nuts.

You really think Aerys cared about euling the realm over holding petty grudges and making arbitrary displays or power and being paranoid?

C'mon..., Aerys is the hardest type of king to be hand for.

You're welcome to think its nuts. We don't get a single fact about Tywin's "ruling" as Hand. No decisions he made, no alliances he was responsible for, no plots he foiled-- nothing, just rumors. I find it interesting how some information like "Ashara is dead" is treated with complete skepticism but similar rumors like Tywin really ruled the Seven Kingdoms somehow become gospel.

[Master of Laws]

Tywin definitely didn't show that he was a brilliant battlefield commander but he was known to be at least a decent commander. As for Robb, I don't believe the two ever met on the field. To my knowledge, Robb purposely avoided fighting Tywin's host and decided to capture Jaime's instead and the two never fought each other directly. I believe Robb himself or one of his bannermen said that despite Robb winning all of his battles, he had yet to go against Tywin himself, which seems to imply that Tywin is at least a reputedly good commander. As for Blackwater, Tywin did command a good amount of men, the left portion of the Tyrell-Lannister army I believe. Randyll Tarly however, commanded the center, which seems to imply that his tactical skills were held in higher esteem than Tywin's. I believe Tywin was a good strategist and knew how to win wars, but wasn't the best at winning battles.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tywin definitely didn't show that he was a brilliant battlefield commander but he was known to be at least a decent commander. As for Robb, I don't believe the two ever met on the field. To my knowledge, Robb purposely avoided fighting Tywin's host and decided to capture Jaime's instead and the two never fought each other directly. I believe Robb himself or one of his bannermen said that despite Robb winning all of his battles, he had yet to go against Tywin himself, which seems to imply that Tywin is at least a reputedly good commander. As for Blackwater, Tywin did command a good amount of men, the left portion of the Tyrell-Lannister army I believe. Randyll Tarly however, commanded the center, which seems to imply that his tactical skills were held in higher esteem than Tywin's. I believe Tywin was a good strategist and knew how to win wars, but wasn't the best at winning battles.

Nah, this doesn't mean anything. Tarly was usually given Tyrell's van to lead because he was held in esteem, not the centre.

The actual c-in-c usually commands the reserve anyway.

I don't think we are really told enough about Blackwater to make much of a judgement but if Tyrell was there he outranked Tarly, and Tywin, as the king's grandfather (and he Tyrell's had basically declared for Joff at this point) is likely to have outranked Tyrell, meaning he would have been in overall command, if there was such a thing for that hastily constructed allied army.

[Bourne]

How did Tywin not lose that game of chess? Tywin wanted to stay at Harrenhall. He was well supplied and in striking distance of both Robb and Stannis. Robb attacked him in his own backyard forcing him to leave the security of Harrenhall and leave KL open to attack by Stannis who Robb would be fine with taking KL. Tywin thought the west was secure but Robb bypassed the defending castle and used mountain passes. Robb made a chess move that forced Tywin to react in a way that Robb wanted and predicted and Tywin did not want or predict.

Tywin had to defend the Westerlands the same way Robb had to return to the North when the Iron Islands invaded. If Stannis is the dangerous how does a seige of SE make KL safe? It isn't like Stannis is the one being kept inside, he can leave whenever he wants. Plus the castellan's concern over the fate of a single bastard child was the only reason SE wasn't joining Stannis who is actually the rightful heir to SE. Hardly a guarantee Stannis will be unable to march on KL.

If you want to say Robb vs. Tywin was a game of chess, then there's no question Tywin won. In fact, Tywin's checkmate was such an amazing move the history books gave it its own name: The Red Wedding.

You can't seperate alliances, politics, and subterfuge from war. Tywin was in the very unfavorable position of being at war with three different kings. Despite the fact that he should have lost, with a little luck in the form of a shadowbaby and some first class scheming, he found a way to win. That's what a good commander does. Beats the odds.

Tywin, may have lost battles, but he won the war.

[Victor227]

He did have a really awesome plan to deal with the Riverlands at the start of the war, and it worked very well. The Riverlords were divided, Jaime smashed Edmure's host and besieged Riverrun, Tywin's assesment of Walder Frey was, to say the least, accurate as well. If that were all, they'd have won in the Riverlands no problem and been free to bolster King's Landing.

He did however, make the mistake of totally underestimating Robb as a mere boy (which to be fair, would be accurate considering he himself had never near a battle). As well, he didn't connect the dots between Renly's sudden death and the possibility of a sudden death ending the siege of Storm's End.

The one thing that turned against him that he could have in no way forseen was the execution of Ned Stark. It lowered his opinion of Cersei and Joffrey to the point that he was willing to send Tyrion to King's Landing to govern in his stead. If Ned were available, he could have traded him to Robb in exchange for Jaime and peace, freeing him to deal with Renly and Stannis.

So in regard to the war that we've seen of him, he had a very solid plan for dealing with the Riverlands, and even once the North interfered under Robb and proved far more competent than anyone would have thought, he still had the backup plan of trading over Ned and the girls.

In the one battle we've seen of him, he also demonstrated very solid tactics. He came into the fight expecting an eager boy, and even though he got the much more cautious Roose Bolton, he still scored a very solid win, breaking the lines and committing the reserve perfectly. He seems a very textbook battlefield commander, and that's not a bad thing, textbook works, it's his ability to keep everyone in line that makes that dangerous.

[King Doug]

His reputation couldn't have come from nowhere. I'm willing to bet he had a strong hand in a previous war that we don't know about, maybe the War of the Ninepenny kings. But his knowledge, acumen, and strategy in the field of battle is revered. It has to be for a reason.

I think his reputation is solid. What separates him from others is that he is so ruthless and cruel. Jon Connington seems to be a well educated man that knew what he was talking about. Even Connington compared himself to Tywin and it seemed he even looked up to Tywin in terms of being a good commander. When JC was recalling the Battle of the Bells (when Connington was chasing a wounded Robert but the townspeople of the Stoney Sept were aiding him, then a Stark/Tully/Arryn force smashed JC and defeated him) he said to himself that he did everything Tywin would have done, except burn the town down.

I think that, on top of other people's views of him, Tywin had to have earned that reputation.

[Master of Laws]

If you want to say Robb vs. Tywin was a game of chess, then there's no question Tywin won. In fact, Tywin's checkmate was such an amazing move the history books gave it its own name: The Red Wedding.

You can't seperate alliances, politics, and subterfuge from war. Tywin was in the very unfavorable position of being at war with three different kings. Despite the fact that he should have lost, with a little luck in the form of a shadowbaby and some first class scheming, he found a way to win. That's what a good commander does. Beats the odds.

Tywin, may have lost battles, but he won the war.

I agree with most of what you said but a good battlefield commander (emphasis on battlefield) should be able to win most of his battles right? I think that Tywin was no doubt, one of the greatest strategists in Westeros because of his brilliant plots and schemes that allowed House Lannister to rise to the top.

[The Fallen]

Ok, so Tywin was feared all around the seven kingdoms, probably due to the way he dealt with the Reynes etc, but he had greater numbers on both of these occasions, so they weren't exactly great feats. He was also feared because he took no shit, e.g. banishing whores, parading Tytos' wife around streets etc. But is he any good as a battle commander.

I don't know that Tywin was feared all around the Seven Kingdoms. I would argue that he was only feared in the Westerlands and maybe the Riverlands.

His reputation couldn't have come from nowhere. I'm willing to bet he had a strong hand in a previous war that we don't know about, maybe the War of the Ninepenny kings. But his knowledge, acumen, and strategy in the field of battle is revered. It has to be for a reason.

I think his reputation is solid. What separates him from others is that he is so ruthless and cruel. Jon Connington seems to be a well educated man that knew what he was talking about. Even Connington compared himself to Tywin and it seemed he even looked up to Tywin in terms of being a good commander. When JC was recalling the Battle of the Bells (when Connington was chasing a wounded Robert but the townspeople of the Stoney Sept were aiding him, then a Stark/Tully/Arryn force smashed JC and defeated him) he said to himself that he did everything Tywin would have done, except burn the town down.

I think that, on top of other people's views of him, Tywin had to have earned that reputation.

Tywin was competent. But he's been elevated to a level that is not evident, therefore he is being overrated. If Tywin had been great in other wars, we would know about it. Just like we know about the Blackfish and Barristan the Bold during the war of the Ninepenny Kings. And about Robert and Stannis Baratheon, and Ned during Robert's Rebellion. During the last two major wars Tywin sat out of one and wasn't spectacular on the battlefield in the second.

No one doubts that he was cunning and had a good grasp of politics and knew how to create and exploit turmoil, but with regards to the battlefield he wasn't great. I would place his pillaging of the Riverlands in this category, as it displays his cunning by catching the Riverlands unawares. But this differs from facing an enemy on the battlefield, which is where your battlefield bonafides are made.