Wouter Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I wonder if they are going to do something similar to the Arya arc and mix up the timeline- maybe now introduce the Great Northern Conspiracy against teh Boltons, the Ghost, etc. If an army of Northman shows up to besiege Winterfell and ends up getting ahold of Sansa, Theon, and perhaps even Stannis, that would be interesting. Indeed. They have also laid the foundation of an intervention by Vale armies, though. Something teased in the books, but due to winter (passes being frozen) not something I think will actually happen in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorth's1stKnight Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I really don't see any point in the Bolton's holding Winterfell any longer. Unless they are just there to get sacrificed to the Others. I think it makes more sense to have Stannis there as the first line of defense who has to heroically fend off the Others until they can get reinforcments from everyone else. Similar to how Stannis fended off the Tyrell's until the Rebellion was won. Seems like he'd be good in a role like that. I could see this. I refuse to believe that one of the best battle commanders in all of westeros just gets dominated by the boltons especially ramsey of all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyu-Chuck Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I could see this. I refuse to believe that one of the best battle commanders in all of westeros just gets dominated by the boltons especially ramsey of all people. In the books, GRRM are constantly remembering us since book 1 that Stannis is best commander in all of Westeros.... to just die like that its just doesn't make any sense..... if he dies, he dies, but I'm sure it will be such a death that in the end he will not be, just like showstannis said, just a page in someone else's history book.... In order to order Shireen's sacrifice himself, he needs to survive the battle..... if he dies, he is innocent..... in other words, no matter wich of the options is correct, D&D ruined the character...... just like he ruined Sansa, Littlefinger, Dorne, Brienne, etc..... The scene were Briene kills Stannis is just wrong..... the series made a heroic portrait of her that just doesn't fit with ASOIAF...... and looks like they wanted to make Stannis look bad before make Brienne kill him so that no one would feel bad for him or been pissed with her... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluehair26 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 In the books, GRRM are constantly remembering us since book 1 that Stannis is best commander in all of Westeros.... to just die like that its just doesn't make any sense..... if he dies, he dies, but I'm sure it will be such a death that in the end he will not be, just like showstannis said, just a page in someone else's history book.... In order to order Shireen's sacrifice himself, he needs to survive the battle..... if he dies, he is innocent..... in other words, no matter wich of the options is correct, D&D ruined the character...... just like he ruined Sansa, Littlefinger, Dorne, Brienne, etc..... The scene were Briene kills Stannis is just wrong..... the series made a heroic portrait of her that just doesn't fit with ASOIAF...... and looks like they wanted to make Stannis look bad before make Brienne kill him so that no one would feel bad for him or been pissed with her... I do not believe Stannis will order the sacrifice himself. The situations are completely different in the book and the TV show. His driving force for the sacrifice is a thousand miles away in the book. I seriously doubt book Stannis will put enough thought into the problem and come to the conclusion that the solution is that he has to burn his daughter. I dont think he will get a note to the wall with those directions. I believe what is more likely to happen is that he will send a note to the wall informing them of his situation and possibly even asking for help. I think Melisandre will read the note for help and will take it upon herself with the queen involved to burn his daughter. I believe Stannis will then go on to win the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Rules Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I could see this. I refuse to believe that one of the best battle commanders in all of westeros just gets dominated by the boltons especially ramsey of all people. I read this argument over and over again. It doesn't make any sense!!!! Stannis is a great battle commander, I get that. But when you take 1.000 sick, starving footsoldiers, and you have to fight 2.000 soldiers on horses, you're gonna lose. That's not bad writing. On the contrary. It would have been bad, cliche superhero writing to turn a great battle commander into some kind of magician / Jesus Christ. What has Stannis versus Ramsay to do with the inevitable outcome (if the script is at least somewhat realistic) of this battle???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorth's1stKnight Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I read this argument over and over again. It doesn't make any sense!!!! Stannis is a great battle commander, I get that. But when you take 1.000 sick, starving footsoldiers, and you have to fight 2.000 soldiers on horses, you're gonna lose. That's not bad writing. On the contrary. It would have been bad, cliche superhero writing to turn a great battle commander into some kind of magician / Jesus Christ. What has Stannis versus Ramsay to do with the inevitable outcome (if the script is at least somewhat realistic) of this battle???? yea i hear what you're saying but I just feel like D&D dropped the ball on the whole Stannis and northern storyline. I still think in the end Stannis comes out victorious. there's too many moving parts for the boltons to just eliminate all of the resistance and be able to sit pretty in winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseLark Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Maybe D&D just cut out a step. In the books Stannis could still lose but not be routed as he is on the show. He could make it back to Castle Black, woefully depleted in resources and men. This could be the desperate point at which he chooses to sacrifice Shireen. Ooooooorrrrrr... Martin may have changed his mind about the sacrifice of Shireen. You never know. Marting plotted these books in advance but once you start writing you go where the characters seem to be taking you. This is why I don't care if the show "spoils" the books: I love reading around Martin's world and even take a perverse joy in the lists of food. It doesn't matter if I know the major stops on the way to the end of ASOIF, I can enjoy the ride just as much. I mean, I read Lord of the Rings every 2-3 years and love it very time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firepoet Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Just to clarify. He didn't say Stannis would burn Shireen in the books, he simply suggested it for the show as a cool idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadows and dust Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A bit off topic, but relating to the last few posts.... Is it possible the red woman, perhaps having seen the error of her judgement in the flames, belatedly realizes John not Stannis is AA and burns shireen to bring John back after FTW? Death pays for life and all that. Hopefully doesn't lead to a thread jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyu-Chuck Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 or maybe she sacrifices Shireen trying to bring back the AA, thinking it will be Stannis, but ending up ressurecting Jon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbuehner Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 How bout this- Snow is killed, one of the NW gives the Bolton message to Mel, she freaks out and burns Shireen while praying to ressurect Azor Ahai, Jon's eyes pop open. Or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadows and dust Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 or maybe she sacrifices Shireen trying to bring back the AA, thinking it will be Stannis, but ending up ressurecting Jon..... How bout this- Snow is killed, one of the NW gives the Bolton message to Mel, she freaks out and burns Shireen while praying to ressurect Azor Ahai, Jon's eyes pop open. Or something along those lines. Yea, both of those play as well... In fact it sounds better in my ear. Mel reads letter, kills Shireen to raise AA's cause, instead raises John. It hits the fan afterwards, and I have no idea where the story goes for Mel and John from their.... Probably the heck out of Castle Black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Just to clarify. He didn't say Stannis would burn Shireen in the books, he simply suggested it for the show as a cool idea.Source for that? All I've read (from the 'not-a-blog') is that he won't give any further comments (but doesn't deny it). Benioff implied that Stannis is also the one who would give the order in the books. And even with the most mild interpretation of what he said, at least Shireen will burn in the books, too. It was never said that he merely suggested it for the show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Source for that? All I've read (from the 'not-a-blog') is that he won't give any further comments (but doesn't deny it). Benioff implied that Stannis is also the one who would give the order in the books. And even with the most mild interpretation of what he said, at least Shireen will burn in the books, too. It was never said that he merely suggested it for the show!Which means that he wins the Battle on the Ice in the books, because there's just no plausible way he can somehow make his way back to the wall to burn Shireen after getting routed. He would either die in battle or die of hunger and hypothermia after it.Either way, it seems they screwed his character arc for the sake of getting him out of the story as soon as possible and because they just never really liked him. What it does confirm is that he loses the war at some point. Could be after the battle or even near the end of Winds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Which means that he wins the Battle on the Ice in the books, because there's just no plausible way he can somehow make his way back to the wall to burn Shireen after getting routed. He would either die in battle or die of hunger and hypothermia after it.Either way, it seems they screwed his character arc for the sake of getting him out of the story as soon as possible and because they just never really liked him. What it does confirm is that he loses the war at some point. Could be after the battle or even near the end of Winds.They may or may not have screwed him as a character; IMO that depends entirely on the circumstances of the burning in the books. Is he involved, or not? If yes, then the end result for the character is likely the same. If not, then he got a raw deal in the show. Before E05S09, I thought Stannis was a relatively fair portrayal of the man, also thanks to a strong performance by the actor. I do agree that they wanted him out of the story though, sooner than in the books (where I can see him dying heroically against the Others). But that is probably the reality of making a complicated TV series with a zillion characters (by the standards of the medium). It does look in the books like Stannis will win at Winterfell, IMO. The preview chapters of TWOW point to a man who has a couple of surprises for his enemies, and that he doesn't state his battle plans aloud is a plus (given that in the books, plans that are stated beforehand tend not to work). That would be a major difference with the show; though possibly the Vale armies will spoil the Bolton party. In the books, I don't expect Vale armies to effectively move north, not until and unless major southern houses unite against the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyu-Chuck Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 if you think abou it, they ruined either way..... in order for him to order Shireen's sacrifice, he needs to win the battle..... if he loses, he can't..... hte battle its imminent at the end of DWD, so its impossible for a raven reach castle black in time...... if he wins and sacrifices her, D&D screw up, because he lost on the show........ if he loses and not sacrifice her, D&D screw up because they choose to made him a villain before make Brienne kill him...... and about strategy, he sure would not approach Winterfell the way he did in the show, its just stupid.... doesn't matter if he have hungry and desperate soldiers, a good strategy still would be his choice.... I don't know if he will win the battle on the books, but I'm sure he will not die in a such stupid way..... the only thing that saved the scene was Stephen Dillane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Shireen's dreams about dragons eating her flesh are a clue to her fate.I believe that Stannis wins some battles in the North, but when a Stark is returned to Winderfel the Northeners abandon him and he returns to the Wall.Melisandre uses the only available king's blood (Shireen) but fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneo Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 If indeed Shireen will be burned by Melisandre at Stannis's order then it's obvious that he will win the battle of Winterfell.He cannot order the sacrifice until the battle is won and he will have access to ravens in Winterfell that can go to the Wall. If he loses the battle(unlikely) then the pink letter is probably true and stannis is dead and: no ravens-> no letter ->no Shireen sacrifice at Stannis's order ->show is shit and ruined Stannis just for shock value.Well, either way the show ruined Stannis and his arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanooo Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 How anyone can say that after watching the show stannis is certain to loose the battle of winterfell is beyond me. Did anyone watch the show's battle, it was completely different to the books, stannis was out in the open and was obviously going to be destroyed. In the books there are many factors that play in his favour. The fact he knows about the traitors in his camp, he's now dug in deep and made defenses. He also has a good amount of northerners with him, they know the terrain and are more than capable of fighting in the harsh weathers. Also the big one, he has the lake of you believe the theory on that. I just can't see George keeping stannis alive to simply be slain at the battle of wintefell, I think that would be a poor death/failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorth's1stKnight Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 How anyone can say that after watching the show stannis is certain to loose the battle of winterfell is beyond me. Did anyone watch the show's battle, it was completely different to the books, stannis was out in the open and was obviously going to be destroyed. In the books there are many factors that play in his favour. The fact he knows about the traitors in his camp, he's now dug in deep and made defenses. He also has a good amount of northerners with him, they know the terrain and are more than capable of fighting in the harsh weathers. Also the big one, he has the lake of you believe the theory on that. I just can't see George keeping stannis alive to simply be slain at the battle of wintefell, I think that would be a poor death/failure. I completely agree with you on this but what is the theory with the lake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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