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FrozenFire3

R+L=J v.28

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Thought it was time for a new thread ^_^

These are the last posts:

I have tried to answer this question before.

The only plausible explanation I can give is that Jon's mother (presumably Ashara Dayne) helped Ned hide Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Ned was afraid that if he revealed her her true identity to anyone, including Jon, it might eventually get back to Robert, who would then start asking questions about what really happened at the TOJ. As we all know, this is something that Ned desperately wanted to avoid.

However, as opposed to R + L = J, this answer is based almost entirely on speculation rather than reasonable inferences from the text. Not only that, it would mean that there is an unidentified child out there that has not been accounted for in the text. Or has it? (JK!) :D

In all seriousness, I think we should all just accept that R + L = J is true.

That having been said, I still like to hear alternate theories. That is part of the reason that this forum is so much fun.

The Meera idea I find utterly crazy. Beside the fact her description makes her seem every inch one of the crannog people, it would be very odd for Howland to claim an unrelated child as his own legitimate child. Until Jojen was born Meera was his heir.

I saw that theory by another poster many months ago, and it actually seemed to fit the way Martin uses double entendre's- that was before Alfie Allens suggestion of the Luke Skywalker scenario with hidden parentage, and possible twins, (which would explain Lyannas death just beyond insufficient care), tthough the mention of twins seemed to make people angry, but now it's open to possibility.

- Mel keeps seeing a vision of Jons sister which people take to be Arya, then it's actually Karstark who shows up, and that throws everyone off, because we know it's not Arya.

If Meera shows up fleeing BR lair, and ends up at th Wall, there is your double meaning. because Mels vision is right, but she and Jon still think it's wrong, because neither of them realize Meera is his true sister.

-Also, at the time of Harrenhal, it made it sound as if Reed was only a little older than Benjen, and if he was already married, would he just run off for adventure, leaving a wife behind?

Meera is Jons age is he not?, so when did Reed get the chance to do that?

I thought he was with Ned most of the time.

There may be an element to the environment that makes people's eyes green, just as in Dune, the environment there turned the natives eyes blue.

If Reed made the decision to take her, then he would have to make her his heir if crannog women are allowed to do that, because otherwise, passing her over would seem strange to his society.

In this sense, he is making the same painful decision that Ned made in raising a non-bastard a bastard with all the cruel stigma that comes with it. Reed is potentially bypassing his own blood for inheritance to keep up appearances.

My theory of what happened during Harrenhall tournament and Robert`s rebellion with Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar.

As we all know, the reign of Mad King had not been so peaceful and joyous, and it was just a matter of time before it ends. We have proofs of his paranoia, cruelty and madness. But also he has a son, prince Rhaegar, someone everybody liked. He was a good, decent and rather honorable man who loved poetry. As far as we know, he would have been a great King. Except of Robert Baratheon, there is no one who told Rhaegar was anything else than a good man, even a man whose sister was abducted by him (aka Ned Stark).

Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, and by many testimonies, it was marriage of duty and not love, respect but not passion. And they had a daughter, Rhaenys. So, everything was well until tournament at Harrenhall. What actually happened there? And now from solid facts of GRRM, I take you on my thoughts of those events and my theory how all happened.

When the tournament was announced, Rhaegar and Elia had a daughter, Rhaenys. Since we have proofs it was a tough labor, and we heard that Elia almost bleed out, it is almost safe to say that next pregnancy wouldn`t be viable. In that case, upon Rhaegar`s death, throne would go to Viserys. Even then, when Viserys was still a child, symptoms of the same paranoia his father had was notable, and he was indeed Aerys`s son, the one who would inherit his cruelty and madness(which ultimately he did). So, it isn`t strange to believe that Rhaegar thought having a son would be salvation for entire kingdom. But Elia couldn`t have given him that, so they had to be inventive. Elia and Rhaegar were together, and they maybe weren`t in love with each other, they would certainly do anything to protect the other one. So, tournament at Harrenhall was excellent opportunity to meet a girl dignified enough to bear a king`s son. Since Elia was going, I believe that half of maidens of Westeros were brought there to be presented in front of a Princess. So, all they had to do is to pick someone from the crowd. Since keeping a secret in Red Keep was absolutely impossible, Varys found out that something was going on and immediately informed Aerys about his son`s intentions to visit Harrenhall. Aerys, in all his paranoia, had thought that his son is conspiring with noble lords (those that were present: Stark, Baratheon, Tyrell, Martell, Tully, Arryn) to overthrown him. So, he went to Harrenhall thinking how he is going to stop that.

Plan Elia and Rhaegar had thought, had to be shared with someone. Elia confined to Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar to his best friend Ser Arthur Dayne. In some point, I also think that ELia offered Ashara who would keep a secret, but Rhaegar denied due to his friendship with Arthur. They all went to Harrenhall, where Rhaegar saw all noblewomen of Westeros, but he noticed the wrongest possible one, Lyanna Stark. I believe he deeply fell in love, and so did she, but she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon, and she was also Stark of Winterfell. All of that worked against their plan, but Rhaegar was determined to continue.

Now, we know what happened next. Rhaegar abducted Lyanna(I think she really wasn`t willing to go with him at the very beginning). Brandon and Rickard Stark were executed and finally Rebellion started. Lyanna was brought to Tower of Joy to be kept safe.

Meanwhile, Rebellion was destructible for royalists. They were losing battle by battle. Lyanna was safe in TOJ, and also she was falling in love with Rhaegar. I believe that Elia herself had visited her and told her about plan. Ashara and Elia faked princess`s pregnancy (which wasn`t that difficult). Lyanna got pregnant and nine months after, she had twins. She gave birth to one son with astonishing Targaryen look, and another with Stark features. Rhaegar took one that looked more like him, named him Aegon, and left knights of Kingsguard to protect the second child. Elia, in court, faked labor(now, that would be much more difficult to perform but she was smart woman, and I see her doing what must be done, like having a midwife that was executed afterwards and so on), and presented Lyanna`s son as her own.

Finally, Royalists were crushed, Rhaegar was killed, Sack of KL occurred and Elia was also dead. Ned Stark marched to TOJ where Lyanna begged him to protect her son from Robert`s anger. After that, he with Howland Reed went to Starfall to meet with Ashara who told him everything. Together, they named a child Jon (after someone very dear to Ned). Ned told everyone that Jon is his bastard, and forbid everyone to talk about Ashara or anything related to her.

Since i am pointed to this thread, I have no other way to share piece of my mind. Your thoughts?

rmholt, I can't figure out how to do multiple qoutes but this is the first of our posts to each other. I was responding primarily to your comment that Jon was taken to Starfall to BE edric's milk brother.

...................................................................................

snapback.pngrmholt, on 23 June 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Ned pulled down the ToJ. Jon was at Starfall (to be Edric;s milk brother) until he went north. No reason to think Wylla went along - she served Starfall - just some wetnurse (and not Nan, either!)

knownothing:

I don't disagree that Wylla possibly did not go to Winterfell, another wet nurse may have. But, Jon was not at Starfall to be Edric's milk brother. Edric is a few years younger than Jon. They are 'milk brothers ' only because at some point Jon (whether at the TOJ or Starfall for a period of time, or both) and Edric each had Wylla as a wetnurse. That is all a milk brother/sister means, that at one point children were nursed by the same woman and not necessarily at the same time.

.................................................................................

Ygrain and another poster said what I was trying to, that Jon may have been in need of a wetnurse at the TOJ whether it was Wylla or not. We don't know how long he there before the TOJ was taken down. But, being as Edric was not yet born , Jon was not taken to Starfall to be Edric's milk brother.

None of tis is a big deal. I just wanted to clarify why I commented about your post above initially. :drunk:

And this is the main element that leads me to consider the theory plausible. Of course, Meera is Jon's age, which means she was conceived some time around the rebellion. We don't know enough about Reed to be sure that's a possibility, which may also be on purpose. Of course, against this theory there's the fact that Bran never notices she looks like Arya or anything, which is what one would expect from Lyanna's daughter, though that's not necessary. Argh! I really don't know what to think about it! lol

But well, this is a nice theory for those who believe in the literal interpretation of "the dragon has three heads" thing: if Meera was the third head, Aegon can be fake and Tyrion can just be Tywin's son once again. :P

I really like this idea. But...

...Aegon is supposed to be about a year older than Jon, so this central part in the theory doesn't really work.

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Thought it was time for a new thread ^_^

These are the last posts:

Lady Octarina, that would mean that Rhaegar was sleeping with both Elia and Lyanna at the same time, and I am not byuying it. Rhaegar was too much in love with Lyanna after harrenhall tourney to concieve a child with Elia.

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All of the maidens of the Kingdom being brought before him and Elia as "breeders" might be possible, but I really hope Lyanna has more respect for herself than that, (not being rude to your idea, because they could have been that arrogant).

I also think that Elia was already in the first stages of pregnancy with Aegon, and Rhaegar remembered a comet over KL the night of his conception, so they were at home.

And unfortunately, I tend not to think there was a concern for her health, or they wouldn't have tried for Aegon.

She was half dead after Rhaeneys birth, so that should have been enough of a sign to stop them from trying for even a second, much less a third.

I tend to think people of this time were very pragmatic about such things, and women knew the risk, but that didn't mean they just stopped trying, especially those in such positions.

The Maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children, affectively telling him she was uncapable, or I think that they would still keep trying, hence this was why Tywin kept Cersei around.

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All of the maidens of the Kingdom being brought before him and Elia as "breeders" might be possible, but I really hope Lyanna has more respect for herself than that, (not being rude to your idea, because they could have been that arrogant).

But, I am not saying the maidens knew about plan, just Rhaegar, Elia and Daynes, so Rhaegar picked Lyanna by crowning her at the end of the tourney...

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All of the maidens of the Kingdom being brought before him and Elia as "breeders" might be possible, but I really hope Lyanna has more respect for herself than that, (not being rude to your idea, because they could have been that arrogant).

I also think that Elia was already in the first stages of pregnancy with Aegon, and Rhaegar remembered a comet over KL the night of his conception, so they were at home.

And unfortunately, I tend not to think there was a concern for her health, or they wouldn't have tried for Aegon.

She was half dead after Rhaeneys birth, so that should have been right there to stop them from trying for a second.

I tend to think people of this time were very pragmatic about such things, and women knew the risk, but that didn't mean they just stopped trying.

The Maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children, effectively telling him she was uncapable, or I think that they would still keep trying, hence this was why Tywin kept Cersei around.

Yes, I agree. The times we are discussing about are very similar to times in real history. Women died in childbirth or nearly died anyway and people did not concern themselves. It was natural. Elia may have been perfectly healthy but have difficulties during pregnancy and/or childbirth... I don't think that would have stopped Rhaegar. The third head of the dragon, the PtwP, all these prophecies obsessed him too much. But if Elia really couldn't give him a child, then he would have chosen someone else... when Lyanna happened he may have fallen in love with her, struck by her beauty, strength, uncommon nature but he was also, I think, trying to fulfill the prophecy. Anyway it was not uncommon for noble men in the past to father children with other women if their wives could not, for example, give them sons.

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Lady Octarina, that would mean that Rhaegar was sleeping with both Elia and Lyanna at the same time, and I am not byuying it. Rhaegar was too much in love with Lyanna after harrenhall tourney to concieve a child with Elia.

Well considering that Rhaegar and Elia had a child the next year he had to sleep with Elia right before the Tournament if he didn't.

Lyanna gave birth the 2nd year after.

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Burried Treasure:

"The Meera idea I find utterly crazy. Beside the fact her description makes her seem every inch one of the crannog people, it would be very odd for Howland to claim an unrelated child as his own legitimate child. Until Jojen was born Meera was his heir."

So do I. Besides, does HR really need a secret motive not to venture out of the Neck? I can't recall ever seeing any other crannogmen except Jojen and Meera, it seems they stick to their homeland.

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I can see Jojen = HR nobody ever said what he looked like. I don't see Meera, she sound like a crann.

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Meera looks like a Crannogman, so I find this unlikely. Also, Meera is 16 in ACOK while Robb and Jon are still fifteen. I think Meera was conceived slightly before the war.

The tourney at Harrenhal was about Rhaegar's coup, not about finding a new "breeder" for Rhaegar's precious prophecy baby. I think falling in love with Lyanna wasn't part of the plan.

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Quick question. DId Ned ever refer to Jon as "My son" or just as "My blood"?

yes he has. Its in AGOT where he says something like "let's see what mischief are my sons up to" (not the exact words) and refers to Robb and Jon. And its only understandable he would have done so if he really wanted people to think of Jon as his son.

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Quick question. DId Ned ever refer to Jon as "My son" or just as "My blood"?

Ned calls him "my son" verbally, in the presence of others, but never in his own thoughts.

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Lady Octarina, that would mean that Rhaegar was sleeping with both Elia and Lyanna at the same time, and I am not byuying it. Rhaegar was too much in love with Lyanna after harrenhall tourney to concieve a child with Elia.

Elia was probably already pregnant when the tourney happened; even if she wasn't, I'm sorry, but since when is being in love with a woman reason enough for a guy not to sleep with another, especially if said guy happened to have the duty to provide an heir to his dynasty?

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Ned calls him "my son" verbally, in the presence of others, but never in his own thoughts.

This is correct, and it's a big distinction. It's also important to remember that Ned was including Robb in that, so it makes sense for him to lump them together. If it had been just Jon, though, I'd wager that Ned would ask, "What's Jon doing?" and not, "What's my son doing?"

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Meera looks like a Crannogman, so I find this unlikely. Also, Meera is 16 in ACOK while Robb and Jon are still fifteen. I think Meera was conceived slightly before the war.

The tourney at Harrenhal was about Rhaegar's coup, not about finding a new "breeder" for Rhaegar's precious prophecy baby. I think falling in love with Lyanna wasn't part of the plan.

Rob, Jon, and Merra are all listed as being born in 283.

I don't agree with the other part either. but that would be a different thread

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Just because Meera looks like a crannogman doesn't mean anything in regards to the debate of whether or not she is Jon Snow's twin. Clothing, speech accents, and mannerisms go a long way in people's perceptions of where they think someone is from. Rarely are there physical characteristics (other than skin color) are indicators of someone's homeland. However, this is not the right thread for a nature vs. nurture debate.

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Just because Meera looks like a crannogman doesn't mean anything in regards to the debate of whether or not she is Jon Snow's twin. Clothing, speech accents, and mannerisms go a long way in people's perceptions of where they think someone is from. Rarely are there physical characteristics (other than skin color) are indicators of someone's homeland. However, this is not the right thread for a nature vs. nurture debate.

I don't believe anyone's referring to her mannerisms when saying Meera looks like a crannogwoman, but more to her short stature and green eyes, traits she shares with Howland and Jojen, respectively. On that topic, though: If Meera is Jon's twin, how would she have gotten eyes considering that Lyanna's were grey and Rhaegar's were lilac?

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King Doug might have a point if we were talking about the real world or even the TV show. But we're looking for hidden meanings in a written work of fiction where the author has a clear pattern of talking about Stark features or looking like someone from the Reach. Every piece of evidence is important when judging a theory.

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I don't believe anyone's referring to her mannerisms when saying Meera looks like a crannogwoman, but more to her short stature and green eyes, traits she shares with Howland and Jojen, respectively. On that topic, though: If Meera is Jon's twin, how would she have gotten eyes considering that Lyanna's were grey and Rhaegar's were lilac?

Not taking sides here, but it has been contended that the green eyes and stature are a result of the diet of the Crannogmen or something in the environment, similar to the Fremen in Dune getting blue eyes from spice exposure.

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