R+L=J v.28

[TheonGreyjoy]

I don't think I had heard about any comments by Sean Bean on this subject - what exactly did he say?

:eek:

http://www.hypable.c...mother-mystery/

http://www.vulture.com/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

[Teal'c]

While GRRM is coy about answering the question, people connected to the show (Sean Bean, Alfie Allen, B & W) have basically come out and said that GRRM has told them R + L = J is true. Sean Bean gave an interview in New York magazine. There is a thread about the Alfie Allen interview on this forum. I can't recall what magazine the B & W interview appeared, but I am sure you can google it. Hope this answer helps.

Kit Harington does a big but subtle spoiler as well in the Comicon cast panel discussion. When the cast members are asked what they would like to see in the future for their characters, Kit says he'd like to see Jon Snow sitting on that Iron Throne.

Much later in the interview the cast are teasing eachother about not making spoilers, and there's an implication Kit may have already done so. But Jon Snow on the Iron throne is the only thing he's mentioned of that nature, that I can spot. Ergo, he knows!

The link:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

You are correct that he wouldn't.

I guess I am having trouble differentiating between what is and what isn't reasonable for Ned to think about. People are arguing that if Jon was Ned's son, then it is reasonable to assume that Ned would think of him as such. The fact that he doesn't means that Jon is not Ned's son. That is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

However, I think it is not the "strongest" argument because it is not as logically sound as other arguments, for the reasons I posted above. I guess I am just nitpicking at this point.

I understand where you are coming from, and your argument is valid. I just choose to believe that Ned would have included Jon in his thoughts, if Jon was truly his child, and I don't see it being open to interpretation, but I am also a die hard believer in R+L=J.

If you are a supporter of R+L=J, of course you will view Ned never thinking of Jon as his son to be a clue.

If you are arguing against R+L=J, you could view it as GRRM keeping the mystery going.

[Alia of the knife]

Still, my beef is not with the genetical probability of Meera having green eyes despite her parents having two different eye colours, but rather with the theory than in a world where he has made a point of distinct family looks (e.g. the "Stark" and "Targaeryen looks"), GRRM reveals Meera to be a descendant of two families with said "looks", neither of which she seems to resemble.

That is way too much out of the blue, and unlike R+L=J, there are no indications of this, other than the fact that she is sixteen years old, her father was best buddies with the Ned, and some ambiguous comment made by a supporting actor who does not share GRRM's exact knowledge of the story. In other words, it would be contrived, and I have higher expectations of GRRM than that.

As I said, I personally like my stories even more streamlined, and the whole baby-switching thing, and who is this one's Father, or that one's Father, too many people coming back from the dead, etc. is distracting enough in an already expansive work.

Whether or not, Meera is his sister, though again it seems strange that Reed has a daughter the same age as Jon when it doesn't appear he had a wife, and was on the road with Ned, it is possible that Jon may very well have a trueblood sibling somewhere. :dunno:

However, it is my personal hope that the work remain streamlined, and not go into some of these areas.

If Jon ends up being the only one, I'm certainly fine with that

Anyway, it's not my theory, but I don't think just disliking it personally makes it improbable.

[Budj]

Perhaps Meera had purple eyes? And that's why Howland took her...

[TheonGreyjoy]

Kit Harington does a big but subtle spoiler as well in the Comicon cast panel discussion. When the cast members are asked what they would like to see in the future for their characters, Kit says he'd like to see Jon Snow sitting on that Iron Throne.

Much later in the interview the cast are teasing eachother about not making spoilers, and there's an implication Kit may have already done so. But Jon Snow on the Iron throne is the only thing he's mentioned of that nature, that I can spot. Ergo, he knows!

The link:

He said himself: "i dont want to bring spoiles, i already did that today" so clearly indicating that Jon will sit on the iron throne.

[Alia of the knife]

I think Martin is signaling he's ready to get this back story out of the way.

I believe when he originally wrote this, he probably thought it would be a great springboard into current events.

He may not have anticipated that Rhaegar and Lyanna would become bigger "stars" of the series than the current players, and now realizes he's got to settle this and move on.

People realizing who Jon is does not detract from his experience, in fact people knowing who he is, and how close he comes, and then how far he goes, who the players in his life will be, only to come full circle makes his journey more "nail-biting," not less.

[Lady Octarina]

http://www.hypable.c...mother-mystery/

http://www.vulture.c...ext_for_ga.html

Thank you!

Kit Harington does a big but subtle spoiler as well in the Comicon cast panel discussion. When the cast members are asked what they would like to see in the future for their characters, Kit says he'd like to see Jon Snow sitting on that Iron Throne.

Much later in the interview the cast are teasing eachother about not making spoilers, and there's an implication Kit may have already done so. But Jon Snow on the Iron throne is the only thing he's mentioned of that nature, that I can spot. Ergo, he knows!

The link:

So, we can basically assume that the whole cast knows who Jon's parents are? I mean, it makes sense to tell Sean Bean so that he can add that layer to his acting, just like Stephen Moffat told Alex Kingston the truth about who River Song was in Doctor Who, for example. But the rest of them? It sounds too risky, I believe, both for the possibility of letting it slip in interviews and such and because it can interfere with their acting.

However, it is my personal hope that the work remain streamlined, and not go into some of these areas.

If Jon ends up being the only one, I'm certainly fine with that

Anyway, it's not my theory, but I don't think just disliking it personally makes it improbable.

I think that's an attractive theory for Jon fans because we don't want him to stay this alone when he finds out the truth, and seeing as it's nearly certain YG is not his brother, a sister could be a good idea.

Of course, when I say "we" I'm not counting myself - I want lots of angst-Jon in the last books! :devil:

[nothatso]

I don't think Kit Harington knows anything about the character's parentage.

From March of this year:

Do you have theories about who Jon's parents really are? Because the fandom doesn't always subscribe to the idea that Ned Stark is really his dad.

I've got theories. I've got my own theory. What's yours?

My money’s on Rhaegar Targaryen as the father and Ned's dead sister as the mother. If Ned swore to protect the baby, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own.

I've heard that one; that's kind of a cool one. I'm wondering if it's true. You just don't know. George [R. R. Martin] knows and [showrunners] Dave [benioff] and Dan [b. Weiss] may have an idea, but they don't tell me. I'm just as much in the dark as anyone.

http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/game-of-thrones-kit-harrington-on-season-two-sex.html

IIRC he's also stated that he doesn't want to know because it might influence the way he portrays the character.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I just don't see the Meera as Jon twin thing.

If you were saying that Meera was Ned's bastard (with Ashara?), and HR took her so he could take Jon, I might buy that, except for the eyes again. But maybe her mother was the fishwife.

[Dragonfish]

Completely playing Devil's Advocate here, but neither does he ever think of Jon as the lawful heir to Westeros. Common sense would say that this thought would at least cross his mind, ever so briefly, at some point in time. I understand it's not quite the same, but I think we shouldn't put too much weight on this one point.

The thing is, Ned is specifically prompted to list each and every one of his children in his own mind, but he excludes Jon. So we have a situation where you'd think Ned couldn't avoid thinking of Jon as his son, if indeed Jon is his son. No such comparable situation occurred that would have forced him to think of Jon as the lawful ruler of Westeros. So the two arguments really aren't the same at all.

[Budj]

Ned was loyal to Baratheon's....if Ned was alive after all the shit hit the fan with the Baratheon line (he wanted Stannis to have it) and corrupt government was going on...he might find it convenient to have Rhaegar's child as his bastard...unless of course part of his promise was to keep Jon as far from the throne as possible.

[FrozenFire3]

Completely playing Devil's Advocate here, but neither does he ever think of Jon as the lawful heir to Westeros. Common sense would say that this thought would at least cross his mind, ever so briefly, at some point in time. I understand it's not quite the same, but I think we shouldn't put too much weight on this one point.

The thing is, Ned is specifically prompted to list each and every one of his children in his own mind, but he excludes Jon. So we have a situation where you'd think Ned couldn't avoid thinking of Jon as his son, if indeed Jon is his son. No such comparable situation occurred that would have forced him to think of Jon as the lawful ruler of Westeros. So the two arguments really aren't the same at all.

I think Ned spent so much time trying to hide Jon, so much time keeping such a big secret that, although he doesn't think of Jon as his own, he almost "forgot" of who he truly is. I mean, at the beginning he must have been so scared something happened to him, that he was almost afraid of thinking of him as the true heir. Now that so many years have gone by it's become quite natural I guess.

Yes, Ned always excludes Jon because as much as he tried to be a father to him, Jon is probably simply a constant living reminder of his dead sister. Yet, he tries to convince himself it is so. So yes, the two arguments are different in a way, two different reasons for not talking/thinking about it :)

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think Kit Harington knows anything about the character's parentage.

From March of this year:

http://www.vulture.c...on-two-sex.html

IIRC he's also stated that he doesn't want to know because it might influence the way he portrays the character.

I had thought that interview was from March of last year.

I also heard an "urban myth" that in last years HBO Home Page of GOT, they actually showed Jon and Ghost as part of some display of the Houses, and he was listed as part of the TARGARYEN House.

They said it was taken down within half an hour.

That has never been verified though

Thank you!

So, we can basically assume that the whole cast knows who Jon's parents are? I mean, it makes sense to tell Sean Bean so that he can add that layer to his acting, just like Stephen Moffat told Alex Kingston the truth about who River Song was in Doctor Who, for example. But the rest of them? It sounds too risky, I believe, both for the possibility of letting it slip in interviews and such and because it can interfere with their acting.

I think that's an attractive theory for Jon fans because we don't want him to stay this alone when he finds out the truth, and seeing as it's nearly certain YG is not his brother, a sister could be a good idea.

Of course, when I say "we" I'm not counting myself - I want lots of angst-Jon in the last books! :devil:

Jon not being entirely alone is the appealing thing, but as I said, my personal hope is that it's just kept as tidy as possible, and not go all over the place.

As for his parents, Sophie Turner I think kicked it off by stating that was her favorite theory, so an open dialogue about it began.

It's also listed in the Wiki now when it wasn't before.

Sansa just can't keep her mouth shut, lol. :P

[nothatso]

I had thought that interview was from March of last year.

It says at the top "3/30/12 at 9:00 AM"

[Maxpey]

The thing is, Ned is specifically prompted to list each and every one of his children in his own mind, but he excludes Jon. So we have a situation where you'd think Ned couldn't avoid thinking of Jon as his son, if indeed Jon is his son. No such comparable situation occurred that would have forced him to think of Jon as the lawful ruler of Westeros. So the two arguments really aren't the same at all.

I agree that Ned not "listing" Jon when he runs down his children is a big clue.

But I got the impression that some posters were claiming that if Ned was Jon's father, common sense would say that at some point in his POV chapters he would express these thoughts. Thus, fact that Ned never does is a big clue that Ned is not Jon's father.

I was trying to say that this wasn't the strongest piece of evidence, because the reasoning behind it can't be applied consistently. As an example, I said as at no point in time does Ned think of Jon as the rightful heir, when common sense would say that the thought should have crossed his mind. Thus, the fact that he doesn't ever think of Jon as his son or the rightful heir in his POV chapters basically cancel each other out, in my mind.

Again, I cannot quarrel with your argument because it was based on a specific example where Ned would have been expected to list Jon as his son, but he didn't.

[Alia of the knife]

It says at the top "3/30/12 at 9:00 AM"

Okay, maybe he's given a couple interviews about that topic as to how he plays the character, and this is the most recent, because I did hear about it last year too.

Martin asked the Producers to guess when they were at lunch one day, and they did to which he was pleased with their answer, and then Kit was offered the chance to know about it, and he turned it down.

Harrington also gave another interview talking about how he wanted so much to be like Ned, who was so honorable and diciplined, but "this anger that he got from his Mother", (paraphrasing), "just kept bubbling up inside him."

I think at the time, that was considered somewhat of a spoiler.

[LordGideon]

Is there any information on what Wylla, Jon's supposed mother looks like? Because if the plan made by Wylla, Ned, and HR had Ned+Wylla=Jon, then Wylla should have some Targaryen features and the plan would make logical sense. If Jon ended up looking like a Targaryen(which he obviously didn't, but very well could have), Ned could maybe point to Wylla as the answer.

It could be the final nail in the coffin for his parentage. If Wylla looks kinda like a Targaryen, then R+L=J is pretty much guaranteed. If she doesn't have Targ features, then R+L=J may not be true, with the other option being that Ned is really stupid(supported well in the text considering some of his actions in AGOT). lol

[Dragonfish]

I agree that Ned not "listing" Jon when he runs down his children is a big clue.

But I got the impression that some posters were claiming that if Ned was Jon's father, common sense would say that at some point in his POV chapters he would express these thoughts. Thus, fact that Ned never does is a big clue that Ned is not Jon's father.

I was trying to say that this wasn't the strongest piece of evidence, because the reasoning behind it can't be applied consistently. As an example, I said as at no point in time does Ned think of Jon as the rightful heir, when common sense would say that the thought should have crossed his mind. Thus, the fact that he doesn't ever think of Jon as his son or the rightful heir in his POV chapters basically cancel each other out, in my mind.

I agree the argument you're describing is not strong enough to support R+L=J. However, I think it's still a useful point, because it shows that the only piece of evidence that Jon is Ned's son is Ned's own word.

Is there any information on what Wylla, Jon's supposed mother looks like? Because if the plan made by Wylla, Ned, and HR had Ned+Wylla=Jon, then Wylla should have some Targaryen features and the plan would make logical sense. If Jon ended up looking like a Targaryen(which he obviously didn't, but very well could have), Ned could maybe point to Wylla as the answer.

It could be the final nail in the coffin for his parentage. If Wylla looks kinda like a Targaryen, then R+L=J is pretty much guaranteed. If she doesn't have Targ features, then R+L=J may not be true, with the other option being that Ned is really stupid(supported well in the text considering some of his actions in AGOT). lol

We don't know what Wylla looks like. However, a lot of posters theorize that Ned planted the Ashara rumors, or at least let them flourish, precisely so that if Jon ended up looking like a Targ, it could be chalked up to his Dayne heritage.

[Maxpey]

I agree the argument you're describing is not strong enough to support R+L=J. However, I think it's still a useful point, because it shows that the only piece of evidence that Jon is Ned's son is Ned's own word.

We don't know what Wylla looks like. However, a lot of posters theorize that Ned planted the Ashara rumors, or at least let them flourish, precisely so that if Jon ended up looking like a Targ, it could be chalked up to his Dayne heritage.

I am not sure that Ned planted the Ashara rumors. IIRC, Ned became irate when Catelyn asked him if Ashara was Jon's mother and he demanded that she tell him the source. After that, the rumors stopped. Plus, since Ned lead Robert to believe that Wylla was Jon's mother, I don't think Ned would want Robert to find out that he was telling other people that Ashara Dayne was the mother.

The more I think about it, I am not sure if Ned really had a contingency plan if Jon had turned out looking like a Targ. Maybe that was one of the things he was haunted by initially.