R+L=J v.28

[Libby]

What exactly would it mean if jon was the child of L+R ? He would still be a bastard, right?

I think it would mess up a lot of things for him. His duty for the NW, having an aunt who desperately wants to sit the throne herself...

i dont think GRRM will tell us any time soon :) i can imagine hes having the time of his life watching ppl guessing

[Dr. Pepper]

What exactly would it mean if jon was the child of L+R ? He would still be a bastard, right?

I think it would mess up a lot of things for him. His duty for the NW, having an aunt who desperately wants to sit the throne herself...

i dont think GRRM will tell us any time soon :) i can imagine hes having the time of his life watching ppl guessing

The commonly held belief is that Jon wasn't a bastard because Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. This wouldn't have been completely abnormal as the Targs practiced polygamy. The evidence for Jon being legitimate is that he was protected by 3 Kingsguards who did not wish to leave to go protect Viserys. The Kingsguard protects heirs and the immediate royal family, not bastards.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What exactly would it mean if jon was the child of L+R ? He would still be a bastard, right?

I think it would mess up a lot of things for him. His duty for the NW, having an aunt who desperately wants to sit the throne herself...

i dont think GRRM will tell us any time soon :) i can imagine hes having the time of his life watching ppl guessing

It could mean many things, both politically and magically. I can't wait until the big reveal! I doubt a mystery this huge would mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I personally feel the NW will be disbanded, so that won't matter. Also, I think Dany may be descending into madness! :unsure:

[y ddraig]

I can't see Ned planting rumours about Ashara unless he had her permission. Going 'hey, let's ruin a random woman's reputation because her looks are convenient' just isn't Ned.

Besides, it was probably already obvious that Jon had the Stark look, and the only truly suspicious things would have been the hair and purple eyes. It's a common misconception that all babies are born with blue eyes, but that's not actually true. He may have been born with grey eyes, and even if he wasn't, Rhaegar himself had blue eyes, which aren't all too suspicious. And it was probably already obvious that he wouldn't be blond.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What exactly would it mean if jon was the child of L+R ? He would still be a bastard, right?

I think it would mess up a lot of things for him. His duty for the NW, having an aunt who desperately wants to sit the throne herself...

You can figure out, based on circumstantial evidence, that Jon is not a bastard. Namely, three Kingsguard members would not stick around the Tower to guard a bastard if the "real" king (Viserys) was unprotected. As for what it could mean, there are any number of possibilities, in terms of politics and the prophecy. Put it this way — why would Jon have those parents if it wasn't going to end up being important in some way? The "It's not going to matter!" crowd has yet to answer that question. If Jon is going to be just Jon the Night's Watch guy, why not have him just be Ned's bastard? There's a reason he has the parents he does.

And Dany's desire to be queen should be a big damn red flag that it won't end up that way.

i dont think GRRM will tell us any time soon :) i can imagine hes having the time of his life watching ppl guessing

He's been doing that already for years. We're getting into shit-or-get-off-the pot territory.

I can't see Ned planting rumours about Ashara unless he had her permission. Going 'hey, let's ruin a random woman's reputation because her looks are convenient' just isn't Ned.

Besides, it was probably already obvious that Jon had the Stark look, and the only truly suspicious things would have been the hair and purple eyes. It's a common misconception that all babies are born with blue eyes, but that's not actually true. He may have been born with grey eyes, and even if he wasn't, Rhaegar himself had blue eyes, which aren't all too suspicious. And it was probably already obvious that he wouldn't be blond.

Rhaegar had purple eyes.

[Black Wolf Smith]

What exactly would it mean if jon was the child of L+R ? He would still be a bastard, right?

I think it would mess up a lot of things for him. His duty for the NW, having an aunt who desperately wants to sit the throne herself...

i dont think GRRM will tell us any time soon :) i can imagine hes having the time of his life watching ppl guessing

1. if they were married, with no other hier, he would be king(not that I am saying there aren't) and would a greater claim then Dany.

2. Even as a bastard he would be trouble, twice in the history of Westeros, Bastard have tried to take the throne.

3. IF YG is a Blackfrye, and R married L He would have the best claim to the throne.

4. if Roberts (not) kids all die, which everyone believes, he would the best claim, maybe even a bastard.

etc ect ect...it just keeps going

[TheonGreyjoy]

But bastards dont count, when there is legimate boys/men in the family. If Jon was a bastard it would pass on to Visery, as he is the rightful king in line (taken Aegon is fake). Same as Stannis was the rightful king after Robert, as he only had bastards.

[Bushido]

Rhaegar had purple eyes.

Indigo.

Besides,use of purple eyes is too loose; for example one can mistake violet eyes for blue,but not purple.

First description of Daenerys also states violet eyes,yet later on only purple is mentioned. (purple being a general word,but having more red)

[dragontamer]

Lyanna was at the ToJ, where Rhaegar took her after the alleged abduction/elopement. So why when news of it reached Brandon he run to KL in search of Rhaegar? Shouldn't he go to ToJ? I mean that's where Rhaegar ought to be down on "duty" to impregnate Lyanna in order to have his third heir. And why did he choose to hide her in Dorne? To further dishonor his wife? Was "perfect" Rhaegar suddenly so obsessed with the prophesy, although admittedly he had been wrong before when he thought he was TPTWP, that he didn't mind risking everything to have another child?

Keep in mind tha Rhaegar thought his first son was TPTWP so if he necessarilyy had to have three children he could choose any other woman who would't cause Westeros so much trouble. And if he did marry Lyanna in order to have a legitimate heir why didn't he do it openly as it was not so uncommon for Targaryens.... And about the KG...who trully knows who they protect, the king, the royal family, anyone if commanded by the king? Joffrey's shield even as king was the Hound, not even a knight.

All I say is that there are a lot of question and paradoxes to be certain what is true and what is not. Sure something happened, something important enough as hinted in the books, but I can't be sure what.

Suddenly Jon is the hero and has to be important... I challenge any person in this forum to tell me that when started reading the books he didn't thought Ned Stark was the protagonist and went WOW when he was killed!! I beleive we tend to assume too much and don't keep an open mind. We know nothing..... :ack:

[Black Wolf Smith]

Dragontamer, some very nice questions. I can say that I wasn't surpriced that Ned died( I knew before I started reading)

Many of your questions do not have answer as of yet, some probley won't ever be.

The reason Brandon ran to KL is he thought that was where R was.

I have a crack pot theory that he didn't just pick Lyanna, it had to be her, the whole reason that he went to Harrenhall was to win Lyanna heart.

[Libby]

I see now, why J might be the rightful heir :) thanks!

@Sellsword

There aren't many love stories in ASOIAF so far, i like to believe they both fell for each other, which makes their death more tragic and R a less scheming character. I think R is the prototype of a perfect Targaryen, just like Dany wants to be (but i think that will turn out badly,too). I don't think good targaryens live long lives :)

I think GRRM wants to fool us with a lot of different traces leading to Jon...like the theory of the fisherman's daughter. In the end, there will still be a twist hardly anyone has foreseen, he remains the master of surprise and pulling all the strings.

I wonder why Lyanna was covered in blood when Ned gave her the sodamnsecretpromise. Was she killed? I don't think childbirth includes such an amout of blood, unless she was dying and someone cut her baby out, which would be...ugh. But maybe thats what she wanted. Or she had a miscarriage, but i don't think baby-jon would have survived that. I dont know what kind of illness would leave her in a condition to give birth to a child and at the same time shes covered in blood. Or maybe it wasn't hers?

[WuzzerMcFuzzer]

I know we've long passed this, but I have the finishing argument against Meera being Jon's twin: If she would have indeed such an important significance, they would have put her in the series. It was one of my biggest disappointment in season 2 that she wasn't included as she was one of my top characters or situations I wanted to see come alive.

And the pro-Meera crowd might reply with all kinds of examples of important characters omitted like Jeyne Westerling or situations changed like Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, but this would be too important for the story and since the screenplay writers have stayed true to the original story's major twists, I think it is safe to bury the Meera theory all together.

Valar morghullis!

W

[Ygrain]

Lyanna was at the ToJ, where Rhaegar took her after the alleged abduction/elopement. So why when news of it reached Brandon he run to KL in search of Rhaegar? Shouldn't he go to ToJ? I mean that's where Rhaegar ought to be down on "duty" to impregnate Lyanna in order to have his third heir. And why did he choose to hide her in Dorne? To further dishonor his wife? Was "perfect" Rhaegar suddenly so obsessed with the prophesy, although admittedly he had been wrong before when he thought he was TPTWP, that he didn't mind risking everything to have another child?

Keep in mind tha Rhaegar thought his first son was TPTWP so if he necessarilyy had to have three children he could choose any other woman who would't cause Westeros so much trouble. And if he did marry Lyanna in order to have a legitimate heir why didn't he do it openly as it was not so uncommon for Targaryens.... And about the KG...who trully knows who they protect, the king, the royal family, anyone if commanded by the king? Joffrey's shield even as king was the Hound, not even a knight.

It is stated that after “kidnapping” Lyanna, Rhaegar went into hiding and no-one knew where he was, even though Aerys tried hard to find him, so there is no way Brandon could have known about ToJ.

Rhaegar most probably chose the location because it was not so far from Starfall, the home of his best buddy Dayne, and Summerhall, where he often made trips, and because it was a distant and secluded location where Varys definitely didn’t have any spies. I doubt very much he would do this as a conscious offence to Elia, whom he was said to be fond of. Also, following the prophecy and falling in love are not mutually exclusive – I’d rather say that he fell in love, realized that Lyanna fit the prophecy, and that’s why he decided to act on his love rather than stick to his duties.

The polygamous marriages, though not illegal, were a bit out of practice at that time, and given Lyanna’s status, Aerys might decide that it would be politically problematic and forbid the whole thing, not to mention Robert and Rickard’s reaction which might not be exactly favourable. Therefore, I assume that they ran away and lay low while producing the third head, and once Lyanna was pregnant or the baby was born, there wouldn’t really be much anyone could do about that, couldn’t they? – I know of two RL cases when girls forced marriages against their parents will like this, and the tactic is hardly innovative J

We do know whom the KG protect – it has been shown and stated repeatedly that the protection of the king takes precedence over anything. By the king’s order, the protection can be extended to other people, but it must not interfere with their primary duty. This is basically the reason of Ned’s questions before the fight at ToJ – the KG had no KG business down there and were at none of the places where they did have legitimate KG business

I wonder why Lyanna was covered in blood when Ned gave her the sodamnsecretpromise. Was she killed? I don't think childbirth includes such an amout of blood, unless she was dying and someone cut her baby out, which would be...ugh. But maybe thats what she wanted. Or she had a miscarriage, but i don't think baby-jon would have survived that. I dont know what kind of illness would leave her in a condition to give birth to a child and at the same time shes covered in blood. Or maybe it wasn't hers?

It doesn’t say “covered in blood“ but in her “bed of blood“, which is a subtle but important difference. And, depending on how the delivery went, there may even occur critical bloodloss. However, it is also stated that she had fever, and the common theory here is that she didn’t die directly due to the delivery but due to postpartum infection, known as puerperal fever, which sets in within a couple of days after the delivery and used to be the most common cause of death in females before the days of modern medicine. Since it is directly related to childbirth, and women still bleed as a self-cleaning process after the delivery during the puerperium period, the “bloody bed” reference would still apply.

[Teal'c]

I know we've long passed this, but I have the finishing argument against Meera being Jon's twin: If she would have indeed such an important significance, they would have put her in the series. It was one of my biggest disappointment in season 2 that she wasn't included as she was one of my top characters or situations I wanted to see come alive.

And the pro-Meera crowd might reply with all kinds of examples of important characters omitted like Jeyne Westerling or situations changed like Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, but this would be too important for the story and since the screenplay writers have stayed true to the original story's major twists, I think it is safe to bury the Meera theory all together.

Valar morghullis!

W

Welcome, and the Reeds are cast for next season. Not that I think there are missing twins and triplets lolling about. I don't.

[The Snow King]

When reading the R+L threads, there is one thing that constantly bugs me: The implied assumption that of Lyanna's passivity. Whether it was a abduction or a mutual escape, it's always "Rheagar did this" and "Rheagar did that. This doesn't sound right to me. We do not know much about them, but there are things we know:

Rheagar is described as introverted, melancholic type of guy. When he believes he is destined to do something, he will commit himself completely, yes, but he just doesn't seem to be guy fond of spur-of-the-monemet, crazy, risky decisions (Except for the Crown of Beaty thing - but I also think he did it thoughtfully, just did not account for how people will react to that).

On the other hand, Lyanna is described as wild and headstrong. She is also quite a fighter, especially if (as I believe) it is she that joint the tournament at Harrenhall as a Mystery Knight. We know that she is supposed to marry Robert and doesn't particularly enjoy this idea, we also know that she was at least interested in Rheagar. Rather than a passive victim of Rheager's whim, I think that she actively pursued him, and it probably her idea to escape together - not expecting that it will lead to war. And i can see that for Rheagar wouldn't be properly married - I suspect that Rheagar and Elia married in a caremony dedicated to the Seven (and did not mentioned the Old Gods at all), and what does a northerner care about those?

In short, I think Lyanna had an active part in what happened, particularly as the lack of foresight in the 'abduction' plan seems somewhat starky ;)

Oh, and I suppose someone already has said that, but I am simpply unable to read to entirety of the R+L threads. Sorry about that :)

[Ygrain]

No need to apologize, no-one expects you to spend half the lifetime reading the previus 27 threads :D

I think that the impression that Rhaegar must have played major part in the whole thing comes from the fact that he was older, therefore supposed to be more adult and responsible and whatever. However, you are perfectly right that Lyanna's "wolf blood" is definitely mentioned for a reason, as is usually taken as a proof that she was somehow complicit in the "kidnapping". A thread or two ago, it was suggested that Lyanna may have heard the story of Bael the Bard or the wildling customs in general and that the "abduction at swordpoint", mentioned in Dany's PoV, really happened, but it was staged at Lyanna's urging.

Also, a good point that Lyanna as a Northerner may not have given a damn about southern ceremonies. It is often disputed that she wouldn't want to be "only a second wife" - but under her own religious systems, she would be the only wife.

[dragontamer]

It is stated that after “kidnapping” Lyanna, Rhaegar went into hiding and no-one knew where he was, even though Aerys tried hard to find him, so there is no way Brandon could have known about ToJ.

Rhaegar most probably chose the location because it was not so far from Starfall, the home of his best buddy Dayne, and Summerhall, where he often made trips, and because it was a distant and secluded location where Varys definitely didn’t have any spies. I doubt very much he would do this as a conscious offence to Elia, whom he was said to be fond of. Also, following the prophecy and falling in love are not mutually exclusive – I’d rather say that he fell in love, realized that Lyanna fit the prophecy, and that’s why he decided to act on his love rather than stick to his duties.

The polygamous marriages, though not illegal, were a bit out of practice at that time, and given Lyanna’s status, Aerys might decide that it would be politically problematic and forbid the whole thing, not to mention Robert and Rickard’s reaction which might not be exactly favourable. Therefore, I assume that they ran away and lay low while producing the third head, and once Lyanna was pregnant or the baby was born, there wouldn’t really be much anyone could do about that, couldn’t they? – I know of two RL cases when girls forced marriages against their parents will like this, and the tactic is hardly innovative J

We do know whom the KG protect – it has been shown and stated repeatedly that the protection of the king takes precedence over anything. By the king’s order, the protection can be extended to other people, but it must not interfere with their primary duty. This is basically the reason of Ned’s questions before the fight at ToJ – the KG had no KG business down there and were at none of the places where they did have legitimate KG business

It's been some time simce I read the books so could you please tell me where is it stated that Rhaegar went into hiding and Aerys was trying to find him?

Also why would he care about Varys? As far as I remember it is not mentioned or hinted anywhere. Anyway the "kidnapping" was notorious, a war occurer because of it.

Dayne was at the ToJ with Lyanna, hoe nearer did he have to be? And if that was not the most direct offense to Elia, I don't know what could be.

And of course Aerys was all about politics and diplomacy.... I think not!

When reading the R+L threads, there is one thing that constantly bugs me: The implied assumption that of Lyanna's passivity. Whether it was a abduction or a mutual escape, it's always "Rheagar did this" and "Rheagar did that. This doesn't sound right to me. We do not know much about them, but there are things we know:

Rheagar is described as introverted, melancholic type of guy. When he believes he is destined to do something, he will commit himself completely, yes, but he just doesn't seem to be guy fond of spur-of-the-monemet, crazy, risky decisions (Except for the Crown of Beaty thing - but I also think he did it thoughtfully, just did not account for how people will react to that).

On the other hand, Lyanna is described as wild and headstrong. She is also quite a fighter, especially if (as I believe) it is she that joint the tournament at Harrenhall as a Mystery Knight. We know that she is supposed to marry Robert and doesn't particularly enjoy this idea, we also know that she was at least interested in Rheagar. Rather than a passive victim of Rheager's whim, I think that she actively pursued him, and it probably her idea to escape together - not expecting that it will lead to war. And i can see that for Rheagar wouldn't be properly married - I suspect that Rheagar and Elia married in a caremony dedicated to the Seven (and did not mentioned the Old Gods at all), and what does a northerner care about those?

In short, I think Lyanna had an active part in what happened, particularly as the lack of foresight in the 'abduction' plan seems somewhat starky ;)

Oh, and I suppose someone already has said that, but I am simpply unable to read to entirety of the R+L threads. Sorry about that :)

Imo that's lot more likely. Lyanna might have done something, or for some reason wanted an escape and Rhaegar out of love or kindness was merely helping her.

[Lady Octarina]

When reading the R+L threads, there is one thing that constantly bugs me: The implied assumption that of Lyanna's passivity. Whether it was a abduction or a mutual escape, it's always "Rheagar did this" and "Rheagar did that. This doesn't sound right to me. We do not know much about them, but there are things we know:

Rheagar is described as introverted, melancholic type of guy. When he believes he is destined to do something, he will commit himself completely, yes, but he just doesn't seem to be guy fond of spur-of-the-monemet, crazy, risky decisions (Except for the Crown of Beaty thing - but I also think he did it thoughtfully, just did not account for how people will react to that).

On the other hand, Lyanna is described as wild and headstrong. She is also quite a fighter, especially if (as I believe) it is she that joint the tournament at Harrenhall as a Mystery Knight. We know that she is supposed to marry Robert and doesn't particularly enjoy this idea, we also know that she was at least interested in Rheagar. Rather than a passive victim of Rheager's whim, I think that she actively pursued him, and it probably her idea to escape together - not expecting that it will lead to war. And i can see that for Rheagar wouldn't be properly married - I suspect that Rheagar and Elia married in a caremony dedicated to the Seven (and did not mentioned the Old Gods at all), and what does a northerner care about those?

In short, I think Lyanna had an active part in what happened, particularly as the lack of foresight in the 'abduction' plan seems somewhat starky ;)

I agree with you, she probably had more part in this than we tend to acknowledge. People tend to put Rhaegar as the one responsible for all this because they assume all Starks are as honorable as dear Ned and Lyanna would never embarrass her family, risk their lives, actually, and that she would rather do her duty and live a boring wife married to that unbearable Baratheon than live an adventure with that gorgeous prince who, by all accounts, was everything any woman should want. Okay, she was not a foolish girl dreaming about marrying the ideal guy, but that doesn't mean she couldn't fall in love with said guy and ran away with him. My personal opinion is that they were both responsible for what happened, they both decided to ran away together and one was always there to erase the other's doubt on the subject.

And yes, I know not long ago I was defending a theory saying that the kidnapping was part of a plan between Rhaegar and Rickard to give the Starks more power, but let's just say that's the crackpot theory I'll stick with when the one I mentioned above is proved false :P

It's been some time simce I read the books so could you please tell me where is it stated that Rhaegar went into hiding and Aerys was trying to find him?

Also why would he care about Varys? As far as I remember it is not mentioned or hinted anywhere. Anyway the "kidnapping" was notorious, a war occurer because of it.

Someone mentions in one of the books (how precise) that Varys had been feeding Aerys' paranoia with informations on how Rhaegar planned to do something against him. Or sth like that. So, he'd probably want to hide from Varys' little birds to be able to stay with Lyanna longer and keep her safe.

[Ygrain]

It's been some time simce I read the books so could you please tell me where is it stated that Rhaegar went into hiding and Aerys was trying to find him?

Sorry, I've read the books multiple times but can never place where things are said. It went that when Aerys learned about the "kidnapping", he got very angry and wanted to find Rhaegar, but no-one could - or would - tell him where he was. I presume it was somewhere discussing Brandon' disastrous trip to KL, so I suppose AGOT.

Also why would he care about Varys? As far as I remember it is not mentioned or hinted anywhere. Anyway the "kidnapping" was notorious, a war occurer because of it.

Varys was said to be doing his best to estrange Aerys from Rhaegar and Rhaella - I find it implausible that Rhaegar wouldn't suspect a thing and wouldn't know about Varys' net of informers. Staying away from Varys would be most sensible.

Dayne was at the ToJ with Lyanna, hoe nearer did he have to be? And if that was not the most direct offense to Elia, I don't know what could be.

My point was that Dayne probably knew the area and may have recommended/arranged the location. When you want a secret love nest, it's better to prepare it beforehands.

What was the most direct offence to Elia, going to Dorne? Like, Rhaegar spent the whole night thinking how he might offend her? I don't think so. Besides, ToJ is not in Dorne proper, it is on its borders.

And of course Aerys was all about politics and diplomacy.... I think not!

Well, he wasn't so crazy that he couldn't tell day from night. The beginning of his rule was actually quite good and he started to deteriorate only after the Darklynn rebellion. - Or, since he was probably rather unpredictable at that time, he might simply want to forbid the whole thing on a whim, which, in its result, would be equally devastating for Rhaegar.

[Maxpey]

Sorry, I've read the books multiple times but can never place where things are said. It went that when Aerys learned about the "kidnapping", he got very angry and wanted to find Rhaegar, but no-one could - or would - tell him where he was. I presume it was somewhere discussing Brandon' disastrous trip to KL, so I suppose AGOT.

Varys was said to be doing his best to estrange Aerys from Rhaegar and Rhaella - I find it implausible that Rhaegar wouldn't suspect a thing and wouldn't know about Varys' net of informers. Staying away from Varys would be most sensible.

My point was that Dayne probably knew the area and may have recommended/arranged the location. When you want a secret love nest, it's better to prepare it beforehands.

What was the most direct offence to Elia, going to Dorne? Like, Rhaegar spent the whole night thinking how he might offend her? I don't think so. Besides, ToJ is not in Dorne proper, it is on its borders.

Well, he wasn't so crazy that he couldn't tell day from night. The beginning of his rule was actually quite good and he started to deteriorate only after the Darklynn rebellion. - Or, since he was probably rather unpredictable at that time, he might simply want to forbid the whole thing on a whim, which, in its result, would be equally devastating for Rhaegar.

I don't recall whether Aerys got mad about the kidnapping, but he did get mad when he could not find Rhaegar after the rebellion started. IIRC, this was mentioned in one of Selmy's and/or Jon Connington's POV chapters in aDwD.