Every Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't think Viserys did have lapses of madness, I think he was a jerk all the time. He talked about 'waking the dragon' as a threat to give him leverage over Dany, but Dany thinks of him later as less than the shadow of the snake - suggesting that his dragon never woke, or that it was pretty pathetic when it did.I think he was a bad person, and maybe not completely stable, but there are certainly worse and crazier in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't think Viserys did have lapses of madness, I think he was a jerk all the time.Dany doesn't:Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown.When Viserys sold their mother’s crown, the last joy had gone from him, leaving only rage.So, by Dany's own words, Viserys' grew worse the worse things got for him, kind of like Aerys.He talked about 'waking the dragon' as a threat to give him leverage over Dany, but Dany thinks of him later as less than the shadow of the snake - suggesting that his dragon never woke, or that it was pretty pathetic when it did.I don't think the madness was ever less severe, it was just that Dany eventually found protectors in Jorah and Drogo who made Viserys rage impotent.It was scarier before because she had no protection from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Every Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Dany doesn't:Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown.When Viserys sold their mother’s crown, the last joy had gone from him, leaving only rage.So, by Dany's own words, Viserys' grew worse the worse things got for him, kind of like Aerys.That sounds to me like he wasn't such a bad kid, bad things happened to him, he lost all of that hope and all of those dreams he used to tell Dany about, he was reduced to selling their mother's crown, which must have had enormous symbolic value to him, and as a result grew into a bitter, cruel young man. I wouldn't call that madness. I'm not disputing that he was a bad guy, I'm just saying that as adult he was consistently cruel and manipulative rather than having flashes of madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 That sounds to me like he wasn't such a bad kid, bad things happened to him, he lost all of that hope and all of those dreams he used to tell Dany about, he was reduced to selling their mother's crown, which must have had enormous symbolic value to him, and as a result grew into a bitter, cruel young man. I wouldn't call that madness.I'm not disputing that he was a bad guy, I'm just saying that as adult he was consistently cruel and manipulative rather than having flashes of madness.Which is the vague blow by blow of what happened to Aerys, who only began his decline after Duskendale. It seemed Viserys was turned sour earlier, but both Dany and Barristan agree there was always some madness in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Aerys wasn't born of incest, nor Rhaegel (sp), nor Brightflame, and not Baelor the Blessed as well. Being born of one incestuous relationship isn't necessarily the problem, but rather the fact they have been doing it by generations, causing long term issues even when the child wasn't born out of incestuous relationships.This is not how inbreeding works. You only get one set of genes from each of your parents. Most harmful genes are recessive for the obvious reason that otherwise people carrying them would have problems procreating. The danger of inbreeding is that 2 harmful/defective genes meet and get expressed. So, even if one of your parents comes from a very inbred background, but the other parent is competely unrelated there aren't and cannot be any long term issues for the child, which are due to prior inbreeding.This child isn't more inbred than the next person! RHeck, being a decsendant of 2 different, unrelated inbred lines would make you particularly healthy and vigorous. This phenomenon is known as heterosis or hybrid vigor.So, I'd say that Targaryen madness is actually linked to something else, and that it is the side-effect of something that is advantageous enough to them that it is kept in their make-up even despite outcrossings, etc. Like sickle-cell anemia in the Mediteranian region, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanmore Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 If Targ blood is tainted, exactly how much of it do you need for the madness to manifest? Robert and his brothers were 1/4 targ... maybe Stannis has inherited some of the bad blood and that's why he's so eager to burn everyone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 If Targ blood is tainted, exactly how much of it do you need for the madness to manifest? Robert and his brothers were 1/4 targ... maybe Stannis has inherited some of the bad blood and that's why he's so eager to burn everyone....Stannis doesn't seem particularly eager to burn people.If that were the case, I can't imagine Melisandre would have had the difficulty talking him into burning Edric she did, and when Clayton Suggs suggests they burn an unbeliever to stop the Winter storm in ADWD, Stannis wouldn't have refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Loving how defensive people get over others hinting Dany might be a little cray-cray.Makes her more interesting than the brat she is now.Better to be a crazy entitled brat than a normal entitled brat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Hinted where, exactly?Brown Ben Plumm mentions to Tyrion that he has a drop of Targaryen blood. Tyrions stated "two drops" and that he knows why the dragons liked him. I think this is a hint. And it was probably the original reason why the Targaryen's inbred, but the reason "why" was forgotten along the way. Just like the Nights Watch had forgotten who the actual enemy was (the Others versus the wildlings), and the tools necessary to defeat the Others was forgotten as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Storm Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't think Dany is crazy at this point. But she is showing signs that she might turn crazy. And being "crazy" can be something you're born with, like personality disorders, but it can also be an undeveloped trait woken after some stress factors.The way the Mad King is described sounds an awful lot like paranoid schizophrenia, and Dany is experiencing quite a similar state of mind. The constant fear of betrayal, ruminating about prophecies, delusions that she's the Dragon and thus the rightful queen and mother of everything while everyone else is against her etc. I realize that the situation she's in makes it quite understandable, but there are two ways this can play out.If she has "the trait" and this will slowly push her over to madness, paranoid hysterical reactions, "the whole world is against me" rants and acts of unreasonable aggression. Never mind that she might actually be right in some of her fears, but this can flip her over to the mad side thus making her act paranoid even when she has no reason to, and this will start happening more often than not.On the other hand, if she doesn't have "the trait", the experience might help her become a better player at the Game, and when making important decisions that might determine your life and the World Order, it's good to keep questioning yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Have to agree that Targaryen madness is overblown. Aerion Brightflame and Aerys II are the only examples of truly dynasty-destroying madness. Baelor and Rhaegel were mad but not cruel, and Aegon IV and Maegor were cruel but not mad. Everyone else (including Viserys) fits within standard human behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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