Jon's "death" free him from his vows?

[tenchi]

You are forgetting that the oath is unitl death, remember that at a Night Watchmen's funeral. They tell him that his watch is at an end. So even if Jon got revived he then would not be a brother since they ended his watch, he then would have to retake his vows and serve under a new lord comander. Plus their is the question of both his birth and the fact he is the King of the North and the Trident, since an Umber is coming to the wall he my stop Jon and force him to take the crown since few know that Bran, Arya, Sansa, or Rickon are alive. So his honor would require him to take the crown and to protect the realm.

[Khal Porno]

I think Jon's attitude toward the Night's Watch upon resurrection will be "screw you guys!" It's not like he can really go back to it even if he WANTS to unless it's completely purged. I think having him die is a poetic and symbolic way to release him from his vows, if not totally "legal" based on the vows' language. But who knows, we'll see. I could be wrong.

[Helgar]

Using Jon's death as a means of allowing him to leave the Wall would be easy and GRRM doesn't go for "easy". Even if he is brought back, what is to say that he will be the same person? What if he is a wight? What if he becomes unCat, or Coldhands, and decides that if he can't be a brother of the Night's Watch, then he is going to help them from the outside? What if he decides to keep fighting against the Others? And what if he does stay dead? Alternatively, what if he doesn't even die and remains oath-bound?

I don't like the idea that Jon is going to rise from his grave, say "well, now I'm free from my vows, let's take a trip down to the Neck and see how my old pal Howland is doing," and start trekking Westeros. It would seem like a cheap trick to allow Jon to leave the NW as soon as he wants to, and join Stannis/fight the Boltons/Freys/Lannisters without consequences.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I really don't see it. I can't see him getting out of anything on a technicality. He might walk away on account of them, you know, trying to kill him, or because the Watch has ceased to exist, or something. But I doubt he uses the, "Well I sort of died so I'm a free man" argument.

agreed. If he gets revived, i don't think it will be immediately. This is a stretch, and a huge one at that, but maybe it becomes an epic case of bad timing. They kill their lord commander. all of a sudden the others show up and bust down the wall and just start ravaging the nights watch. Melisandre works her magic and jon comes back, azor ahai and defeats the others. now realistically he cannot defeat them all, but if he makes enough of an impact that something happens and the watch isn't necessary, he is free of his duties and ready to take the role Robb left for him, unite the north, team up with aegon and dany and go buck wild on the lannisters.

[Walder Waters]

How about this part of the oath "I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.” Pretty clear to me.

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

What the vow wanted to say could be "It shall not end until my soul will rest forever." The sworn brothers are meant to serve as long as they exist, but death seems so inevitable, that it was imagined as the factual end of this duty. And that may be why that part was included.

But...

You are forgetting that the oath is unitl death, remember that at a Night Watchmen's funeral. They tell him that his watch is at an end. So even if Jon got revived he then would not be a brother since they ended his watch (...)

:agree: on that. If the night's watch releases him from his vows by proclaiming it during the funeral, he is no longer bound to it.

I really don't see it. I can't see him getting out of anything on a technicality. He might walk away on account of them, you know, trying to kill him, or because the Watch has ceased to exist, or something. But I doubt he uses the, "Well I sort of died so I'm a free man" argument.

:agree: on that too. And that is why the question is only of academic interest.

[Stanmore]

I don't think that this technicality really holds up to much scrutiny.

On this planet a lot of people have technically "died" then been resuscitated thanks to the intervention of modern medicine. These people haven't been released from contracts, their marriage vows or had life insurance policies paid out to their relatives.

Back on westeros, Donarion didn't feel that death released him from his duty, and Brienne remains sworn to Cat.

Even if the death clause were able to release Jon from his vows, what would it say about his character if he were to make use of it? Abandoning his brothers to their fates so he can run off and play lord of Winterfell... I'm sure Ned would be proud.

[Errant Bard]

I approach it that way:

For what reason do people want him to be released from his vows? To be a lord and raise armies. The questions then become: how do you become a lord and raise armies? Simple: you get people to follow your lead.

How does the invoked "until my death" technicality come into play for those people? In two fashions:

1. They believe Jon died. Hence they believe he is now an undead.
   
2. They don't believe he died. Hence they believe he is an oathbreaker.

So they've got the choice to either follow an undead or an oathbreaker. I don't think either choice is appealing, even if there was a will proclaiming him king of the north and even if his siblings were not known to be alive. If he still made it as king, there would be only one name possible: the Night King. No northern house would follow him.

It seems most debater think the problem is between Jon and his conscience and once he's made a choice, the world around doesn't matter, or more to the point, the world around is barely restraining itself to crown him. I see that as deluded. Jon's adherence to his vows always was a bit flimsy, he broke them at every single trial sent to him, so it wouldn't be that surprising if he actually did choose to break them again, this time trampling the rights of siblings known to be alive (he did argue that Winterfell belonged to Sansa, quite strongly), even if he would emo a bit more about his oathbreaking -as he would be breaking the spirit of his oath no matter what-, however this isn't about Jon's decision, truly, and the world around is not really falling over itself to give him a throne. Unless it begins with a weird ritual with knife stabs, and memory erasure for all those who are looking for Rickon or saw Bran, or remember Sansa.

Though Rickon's death is always a possibility. I guess it would not be that surprising if he had actually been eaten and was in his second life at the moment, heh.

[Fantôme]

I hope not. That feels like a scam.

[Tagganaro]

Doubt the whole death thing comes into play. More likely the Wall will fall or the remaining NW members and Wildlings will go at each other, effectively destroying the NW. Maybe some loyal to Jon take him to safety while he recovers. It seems there's enough there to make Jon a new Wildling King if that's the direction George wants to take it. I'd imagine the 2 hour conversation with Tormund will play some kind of role as well.

I doubt Jon just gets released from his vows though unless something catastrophic happens. If the Marsh contingent gets power and is supported by the rest of the NW, they're probably not just gonna let Jon go but hang him or something.

Or maybe Jon is just completely dead anyway and all this speculation is pointless haha.

[Rachel Lynn Sanders]

He already has broken his vows once so I think if the pressure was great enough he would likely do it again. At the end of A Dance with Dragons he is stabbed. I doubt George R.R. Martin will have him die but its a possibility and in that case its also possible that Melisandre would bring him back to life perhaps causing him to do her will in helping Stannis. Like someone has already stated the Night's Watch seems to be falling apart.

The answer should be no since the vow is supposed to be binding and without exceptions but Jon Snow is not infallible.

Regardless if death freed him from his vows or not the decision is his to make.

[Stanmore]

If the Watch is falling apart then doesn't that give Jon even more motivation to stick with it?

He is the Lord Commander after all. He's the one responsible for keeping things running. The watch has been in decline for a long time it's true, but it's not going to reflect well on Jon if he's the one that finally lets an 8000 year old organisation slip into oblivion.

[nothatso]

If the Watch is falling apart then doesn't that give Jon even more motivation to stick with it?

He is the Lord Commander after all. He's the one responsible for keeping things running. The watch has been in decline for a long time it's true, but it's not going to reflect well on Jon if he's the one that finally lets an 8000 year old organisation slip into oblivion.

I feel like a broken record for saying this in every other thread I post in (and repeatedly in some threads, apparently), but I really don't think leaving a Night's Watch in decline to take a seat of nobility would reflect poorly on him if his ultimate goal remained "to defend the realms of men", and he was able to achieve that goal. Also that's essentially the same way the House of Hohenzollern took power in Prussia, the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order made himself a Duke and took land from the order he had belonged to.

[tenchi]

(..) I really don't think leaving a Night's Watch in decline to take a seat of nobility would reflect poorly on him if his ultimate goal remained "to defend the realms of men", and he was able to achieve that goal. (...)

Thats a good point, its like Stannis's problem of winning the throne to protect the realm or protecting the realm then ruling it. Plus their is the honor of being his brother's heir. He is a Stark whether his father is Ned or Rheagar. So he has the honor of house Stark to take into consideration.

[Stanmore]

I feel like a broken record for saying this in every other thread I post in (and repeatedly in some threads, apparently), but I really don't think leaving a Night's Watch in decline to take a seat of nobility would reflect poorly on him if his ultimate goal remained "to defend the realms of men", and he was able to achieve that goal. Also that's essentially the same way the House of Hohenzollern took power in Prussia, the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order made himself a Duke and took land from the order he had belonged to.

So he's supposed to think "screw my brothers and the wall. Forget about the mess I’ve left them in, and all the consequences of my actions. The people of the north might accept me as leader assuming they're willing to put aside the fact that I’m an oath breaker. I did technically die, so It'll probably be fine.”

What happens if things don't work out as lord of winterfell either? Should he stick around and try and fix things next time, or should he run away again for "the greater good"?

[nothatso]

So he's supposed to think "screw my brothers and the wall. Forget about the mess I’ve left them in, and all the consequences of my actions. The people of the north might accept me as leader assuming they're willing to put aside the fact that I’m an oath breaker. I did technically die, so It'll probably be fine.”

What happens if things don't work out as lord of winterfell either? Should he stick around and try and fix things next time, or should he run away again for "the greater good"?

Who says the watch wouldn't have already replaced him after the stabbing? Or that they wouldn't go with him if they hadn't? Or that there's even enough of them left from the potential fallout from the stabbing to exist as an institution? Who says that The Wall will still be standing and they'll have a place to be abandoned at? Who says that the lives of a few hundred watchmen are worth the lives of millions of people living south of The Wall?

Are you arguing that he should die for honor even if he could do something to save the lives of millions of people? (if that's what it came down to) Is that really honorable?

Isn't this a similar question to that which Jaime Lannister once posed to himself? Save the king, or save the city.

[thetitansbastard]

Jon was already prepared to desert the NW to fight Ramsay, and apparently leave the Wall undermanned in the wake of the impending threat from the Others. So I don't think it matters in the least.

[tenchi]

The fact that Robb's court didn't openly reject Jon, when he was named heir shows that they are willing to accept him. He is like Ameon when they need a king his vow can always be put aside if it for the better good.

[Buried Treasure]

'And now his Watch is ended' could just as easily be an acknowlegment that a dead brother is no longer able to keep watch as a formal relieving of duties. If Jon had sentry for half the night but after he went to bed someone asked where he was they might get the response 'his watch ended an hour ago' - but that woudn't mean he wouldn't be on sentry the next night. Likewise if the black brothers say Jon's watch is ended whilst he is dead and unable to keep the watch that shouldn't necessarily mean he won't be back on watch once he is resurrected and able to resume his duties.

[Grimwolfe]

i think he'll come back and plan to retake control of the watch assuming he is still a member, but someone like Mel, or val maybe will put the idea in his head that seeing as he technically died he is no longer tied to the oath, at which point he may find his destiny lies elsewhere...

[Stanmore]

Who says the watch wouldn't have already replaced him after the stabbing? Or that they wouldn't go with him if they hadn't? Or that there's even enough of them left from the potential fallout from the stabbing to exist as an institution? Who says that The Wall will still be standing and they'll have a place to be abandoned at? Who says that the lives of a few hundred watchmen are worth the lives of millions of people living south of The Wall?

Are you arguing that he should die for honor even if he could do something to save the lives of millions of people? (if that's what it came down to) Is that really honorable?

Isn't this a similar question to that which Jaime Lannister once posed to himself? Save the king, or save the city.

Well yeah, if the watch unanimously abandons him, or falls apart completely then he's not really going to be able to uphold his vow, but that's true whether he "dies" or not.

As for the idea that if he goes to winterfell there'll be some ready made army waiting for him, and that he's the only one that can lead them, and without him as Lord of the North Millions will die... I'm not sure what's lead you to that conclusion. Are the Northmen so hopeless that they can't put up a decent fight without a Stark telling them what to do?