nothatso Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Are the Northmen so hopeless that they can't put up a decent fight without a Stark telling them what to do?Well they sure seem to think so themselves, outside of the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanmore Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't think that's really the case. Stannis, Manderley etc. all want to put a Stark in Winterfell sure, but that's only to challenge Bolton's legitimacy. It doesn't have to be Jon, any Stark will do. Rickon or "Arya" would work just as easily. They're not looking for a general, they just want a figurehead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothatso Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 As for the idea that if he goes to winterfell there'll be some ready made army waiting for him, and that he's the only one that can lead them, and without him as Lord of the North Millions will die... I'm not sure what's lead you to that conclusion.It was a question based on a hypothetical, fit in among others that weren't really meant to be taken in conjunction. i.e. it's just one possibility of many that would see him make that choice, just as if nothing happening to the wall, the watch remaining mostly intact, and gaining support of the nobility, would be a possibility in which he didn't make that choice. All possibilities should be taken into consideration.but that's true whether he "dies" or not.Sure, but the original point you were trying to make about him leaving the watch and how it would stain his character would also be true whether he dies or not, in your mind, would it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanmore Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Sure, but the original point you were trying to make about him leaving the watch and how it would stain his character would also be true whether he dies or not, in your mind, would it not?Not really. I think I’d have more respect for him out and out braking his vows because of a personal conflict of interests than simply leaving the watch because of some legalistic technicality.Either way it would leave a stain on his character, but at least in the first scenario he wouldn't be trying to wave aside the moral implications of his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsaint Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 The Night's Watch is over with one way or another.Everyone who just cheered with Jon to go fight Bolten at Winterfell and all their fellow wildlings are going to tear the Night's Watch apart.(I have to wonder just how stupid the men who planned Jon's death were.)The wildlings will take all the steel, food, and horses, and probably meet up with Stannis for a super siege on Winterfell to rescue Mance. During the sacking of each place, The Horn of Winter will be found, thereby bringing down the wall.Caution, I think this might actually be a spoiler. When Jon/unJon heals up, Mel will somehow be responsible for setting Jon on the path of the AA. Mel/Bran will send Jon to rescue Bran and end up having to kill Brynden Rivers, aka Brynden Blackfyre, aka Bloodraven, (a Targ/Dragon dreamer), which sounds like type of deed that would make a sword glow. Aside from the usual suspects I hope ^^^^ is how it go's :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 really cool idea in the end about bloodraven ^^ never thought of that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Every Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I think he is released from his vows, but it's important to note that it's only on a technicality. Ultimately it's a choice for him to reaffirm his vow or not, and if he doesn't that speaks a lot about him as a character. I mean, it's like people who pay very low taxes using legal loopholes; they're legally okay, but what does that say about them as a person?It's really not like tax-dodging. What that says about a person is that they're dishonest; what leaving the NW would say about revived!Jon is that he doesn't want to get stabbed again. What is he meant to do, return from the dead and carry on as if he wasn't just summarily removed in the most efficient way possible? Talk about not being able to take a hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Thornes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I only finished a DwD about 2 weeks ago, so I think I am still mildly depressed by GRRM killing off Jon Snow. A bit like when he chopped off Ned's head, only worse. But if the Ned experience is anything to go by, I had better get used to a dead Jon Snow. But for the sake of speclation...If Jon has a near death experience, and is revived, then he really didn't die. So he would remain bound by his vows. The first few pages of GoT, where Ned executed a NW deserter- even though the poor man only ran away because he was scared out of his wits- must have had an impact on Jon. And Jon has a definite streak of the (in)famous Stark honour, I don't see him leaving the NW when he wakes up. As for the Wall coming down, I gather that the legends say that you need the Horn of Joramun. But the NW has/had the Horn of Joramun (or at least it was given to Sam, don't remember if he took with him when he went to Oldtown). I always anticipated that Jon and/or Sam would figure it out. But now Jon is gone, so...I'm not sure how the Wall coming down, Jon dying and the Gift crawling with half-starved wildlings all fits together, plus Bran's imminent metamorphosis into a tree, what ever is being precipitated at Oldtown, the Dragons out east and mess of prophecies. But I can't see how GRRM is going to get this done without Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I think Jon's 'death' will free him physically from being at the Wall - most people with think he is dead so he can go off and do his own thing (probably as the Last Hero, waging a War on Winter). However, I think he will act as if he is still bound to his vows. He will always be Night's Watch in his heart and he will honour his vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 The Night’s Watch just betrayed him and very well might be destroyed by the time he gets restored to life. If he returns from the dead he will be free and free to do quite a lot of good for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Killdragon Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes but does it matter? Killing someone is as far as you can go in saying "we dont want you don't come back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Giant Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Jon will never leave the Nights Watch!!Stannis already offered him everything he could have dreamed of with Winterfell.He obviously isn't looking for a sneaky way out of it or he would have taken Stannis' offer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Butler of Tarth Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Even assuming he dies, gets resurrected and decides to leave the NW and pursue his Stark heritage (I'll have none of this R+L shenanigan) who would follow him?To quote myself from another similar thread:"Yeah guys I totally died, came back to life and am not a deserter! Honest!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Stannis already offered him everything he could have dreamed of with Winterfell.He obviously isn't looking for a sneaky way out of it or he would have taken Stannis' offerStan offered Jon the Harrenhal of the North by that point. Not only was Winterfell sacked (ie ruined) but he also have to swear fielty to good ol' Stan and to make matters worst he basically had to convert.I don't know if he always felt this way about the Old Gods but once he gets to the wall he's becoming more attached to those said Old Gods (perhaps due to his awakened warging abilities).Last but not least he felt he still was a Stark and other family memember he grew up with had more claim on that title than he, the Black Bastard.In other words he was presented seemingly with everything he wanted but they're poisoned fruits in his eyes.I don't think his death alone releases him from his vows. My fear is how he will come back, if he comes back. That is, if he's truely dead and not just severely wounded. But I suspect before he dies he wargs into Ghost (based on his ever increasing warging abilities in the texts), and I have no idea if he ever unwargs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di229 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 We know Jon won't stay in the watch forever, we know he won't completely forsake his vows and this death thing seems like a cop out... Has anyone considered perhaps he'll be free when the watch no longer exists? Ie. they get slaughtered by the wildlings pissec off about the assassination attempt and Jon wakes up from the coma a free man(who would be known as the worst LC ever btw!). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotYetRegistered Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I would hate it if Jon left the Night's Watch. Understandable, but still, kind of makes me feel that all the time at the Wall was useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanmore Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes but does it matter? Killing someone is as far as you can go in saying "we dont want you don't come back."Janos Slynt makes it clear he doesn't want to serve Jon, so gets his head chopped off.Bowen Marsh makes it clear he doesn't want to serve Jon, so Jon runs away crying ....Nice consistancy there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes but does it matter? Killing someone is as far as you can go in saying "we dont want you don't come back."That's what Bowen Marsh and his conspirators think, but the fact they have to assassinate him in that manner indicates Jon is too popular to be dealt with otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vympel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Janos Slynt makes it clear he doesn't want to serve Jon, so gets his head chopped off.Bowen Marsh makes it clear he doesn't want to serve Jon, so Jon runs away crying ....Nice consistancy there.Don't get what you're saying - Bowen Marsh will get his head chopped off too. Or he was immediately killed after the act, who knows. But does it mean Jon will stay with the NW? Dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 ''Our honor means no more than our lives, as long as the Realm is saved.'' Says it all, really. Jon will do what is necessary to save the Realm. Even if it means giving up his vows due to a technicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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