Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targareyen

[lojzelote]

As for the proof of Jon's parentage, I used to be partial to "it's hidden in Lyanna's tomb." What use would a be buried sword or dragon egg? But then someone raised a possibility that Lyanna could have been buried in the Targaryen wedding cloak. IF it was uncovered, it would be almost certainly seen as more than passing odd. Why would Ned Stark lay his sister to rest in the heirloom of the man who oficially kidnapped and raped her? . . . because she was his second wife, perhaps? Yeah, pure speculation at this point, but IF GRRM will need to convince the characters, he will find a way.

Also, Bloodraven will send Dany a sequence of visions concerning Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Jon. It is known. LOL

[nothatso]

Seems to me you are using honest to god speculation about what did go on with Jon to prop your case.

You seemingly asked me to speculate and now you're critiquing me for doing so? Clearly you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

This argument has already gone well outside of the topic of the thread.

[Kittykatknits]

They are going to fuck imo. They're meant for each other. But they need to provide Rhaegar with a legitimate grandchild or I'm going to be pissed.

On the S2 finale Dany finds what she thought she had lost after she went to the Wall.

EDIT: Dany lost a son. She needs to bear a living child. Jon specifically wished for a son and said since he joined the NW he didn't dare dream of it.

In ADWD Dany says she would have married Aegon not Viserys had he lived because they were closer in age. Jon is even closer to her age.

Dany fantasizes about a man she can't see. IMO that's Jon.

Val's hair looks silver in the moonlight. Yes Dany's hair is silver-gold but her hair has been called silver before. Val is misdirection. He considered Val as his wife but she will not be. Dany is the bride of fire.

She hears a wolf howl in the distance and feels lonely. That's because her mount to love is Ghost/Jon. They are Luthien/Huan. Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world. Luthien was the most beautiful among her people.

How do we know that Jon is even opposed to incest? When Ygritte asked him if he would fuck his sister he showed no disgust and didn't deny it. He just ignored the question. Not normal imo. He compared Ygritte to Arya and wondered what her body looked like in the same sentence. He did this twice and the second time as after he was already starting to desire Ygritte. Again not normal imo.

I can't wait until Jon gives Dany the Lord's Kiss. Only this time it can be called a Dragon's Kiss from nephew to aunt. :drool:

Pretty much. Even if they haven't met, the foreshadowing was there ever since the HotU.

I also liked Jon's thinking that he would never like some passive maiden sitting in a tower and Dany may be many thinks, but some blushing maiden in a tower who does nothing, she's definitely not that.

I'm fine if this happens, as long as it is well-written but I've never noticed the foreshadowing before. The only one I was aware of was the blue rose in a wall of ice which I always took as a hint toward's Jon's parentage rather than a sign that anything else would happen between them. What else am I missing?

[Bushido]

That rose fills the air with sweetness,sweet love ;)

I couldn't agree more with you,everything is matter of good writing.

[PatrickStormborn]

A Jon/Dany marriage is too soppy for GRRM.

Sorry to upset all the butthurt, childish, Twilight fans, but it won't be happening.

That's cool. Way to generalise a large group of people in an insulting way. :rolleyes:

Daenerys/Jon is a popular ship, and it's been foreshadowed very heavily. Jon Snow likes independent badass women, and you don't get more independent or badass than Dany. :cool4:

Personally I was sailing the Robb/Dany ship long before I set sail on the Jon/Dany ship, but we all know that Dany no longer has any chance with Robb. :P

[Errant Bard]

Do you think Rhaegar knew that taking Lyanna would provoke a civil war? Plus, Lyanna broke her marriage promise not Rhaegar, she had a choice, go with Rhaegar or keep her marriage contract with Robert.

Yes, I do, it's the nature of feudality, not to mention he was perfectly aware of his father's madness, and also knew Brandon.

Lyanna broke it? Say what? As far as anyone knows, Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. But in any case, if a 16 year old asks to elope with a twenty-some family man with children, I think a good part of the responsibility lays on that guy when he abandons family and societal norms.

But then someone raised a possibility that Lyanna could have been buried in the Targaryen wedding cloak.

Yes, not bad, it could certainly be convincing, and the rotting process would be hard to simulate. However I would be wondering how basic natural fabric could resist rotting enough to be recognizable after fifteen years in the earth.

Yeah, pure speculation at this point, but IF GRRM will need to convince the characters, he will find a way.

Not really a good argument: if GRRM needs to make pigs fly, he would find a way too.

Also, Bloodraven will send Dany a sequence of visions concerning Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Jon. It is known.

Magic could be useful that way. Dany would not necessarily trust anything though.

You seemingly asked me to speculate and now you're critiquing me for doing so? Clearly you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I asked for "one thing that can be used as significant proof, that will not have been used to prop "Aegon", that cannot be manufactured no matter what "truth" there is.", I'm not criticising your use of speculation, I'm merely saying that everyone can speculate that way, and the same speculation transposed to another character (the "fake") suddenly will be deemed unconvincing (lies need to be slain) while in the heroic teen case, it seems it must be immediately recognized and abided as one objective truth. It's not criticising speculation, it's criticising that speculation as something that could prove anything and not be faked.

I don't see what's wrong with my answers, being that the subject of our discussion was how we'd get a "Jon King" and how it could lead to a political marriage thus how Dany would accept it. Perception and bias is the key point, and arguing about "truth" is useless.

This argument has already gone well outside of the topic of the thread.

Is it? I think perception of who Jon is is very much at the heart of any idea of marriage with Dany.

If we look, for example, at Aegon, it would be way more beneficial for Dany to marry him, he has more money, more armies and more supporters, and it is easier to believe he is a Targaryen, too. What would go against him but perception and bias?

And once Dany has roasted Aegon, why would she need to marry a contested northern guy, when she has dragons?

[lojzelote]

I'm fine if this happens, as long as it is well-written but I've never noticed the foreshadowing before. The only one I was aware of was the blue rose in a wall of ice which I always took as a hint toward's Jon's parentage rather than a sign that anything else would happen between them. What else am I missing?

There aren't many clues, but for example in ADwD Dany has a strange dream (gods, I feel little pervy for posting this):

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her . . . but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone.

It's not sure it's meant to be Jon, but since he lives up there in the cold North and dreams of being covered in black ice, he seems to be a better candidate than most.

[Bushido]

So Night Kingy :lol:

[PatrickStormborn]

It's not sure it's meant to be Jon, but since he lives up there in the cold North and dreams of being covered in black ice, he seems to be a better candidate than most.

I always thought that dream was foreshadowing an eventual forced marriage to Euron, who has blue lips from drinking shade of the evening.

[Kenyatta]

Jon Snow will not marry Daenerys Targaryen. The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, Aegon, and...

There's another Targaryen out there somewhere and it's not Jon Snow. He burned his hand when he killed the wight and it has yet to heal completely....strike one. He hair is black....strike two. He's a skin changer....strike three.

My guess is that it's a female. If Aegon was spared is it not safe to assume that Rhaenys was as well? Why save one but not the other? So the question is who?

The safe bet is we haven't been introduced to her yet.

[nothatso]

snip

Judging by your responses to this and other threads you seem to be running under the assumption that nobody would have any interest in supporting Jon, something that can be neither confirmed nor denied until the will of Robb surfaces and we can gauge the reactions of the lords that were sworn to him, if it in fact somehow names Jon his heir. I already spoke earlier in reference to Bemused's contention that he could feasibly earn a great deal of support just by taking action in assisting the Northerners in their struggles against whatever enemy (though Bemused used it more in the context of Jon the Lord Commander), and by using the wildlings to do so, simultaneously reconciling the two factions. OBVIOUSLY this is speculative, but we're talking about unwritten books, so I don't really see the problem with that. I simply see a number of avenues by which Jon could find a power base to where a marriage with him would be politically beneficial, if you don't agree then fine.

I mentioned some similarities between the Night's Watch and the Teutonic Order in the crackpot thread. e.g. Both are military organizations that require their members to give up their possessions and fight some great enemy. For the Teutonic Knights it was the pagans. When the pagans disappeared they were left struggling to justify their existence and found themselves fighting other Christians (Novgorod, Poland, etc) while they waned in power and prestige. The protestant revolution takes hold and eventually Albert von Hohenzollern becomes Grand Master of the order, who decides that reforms are needed to protect the state, which is run by a catholic military order. (Does this not sound remotely similar to Jon's own situation?) So what does he do? He declares their lands secular, annexes them, and makes himself the first Duke of Prussia. (Which became Brandenburg-Prussia, which became the Kingdom of Prussia, which became the Kingdom of Germany, which Became the Empire of Germany, all ruled by Albert's descendents.) I'm not sure why you think it's so implausible for GRRM to take Jon in a similar direction, especially if the character is changed in any remotely significant way after his traumatic experience at the end of ADWD. Yes there are issues unique to Jon's situation, e.g. his legitimacy and who his family is, or his current state of health and mental stability, but we already know there are different ways floating around that that those issues could be circumvented.

[PatrickStormborn]

Jon Snow will not marry Daenerys Targaryen. The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, Aegon, and...

There's another Targaryen out there somewhere and it's not Jon Snow. He burned his hand when he killed the wight and it has yet to heal completely....strike one. He hair is black....strike two. He's a skin changer....strike three.

My guess is that it's a female. If Aegon was spared is it not safe to assume that Rhaenys was as well? Why save one but not the other? So the question is who?

The safe bet is we haven't been introduced to her yet.

1. Targaryens are not immune to fire. If Dany is immune to fire (which is by no means confirmed, although she is definitely immune to fire in the HBO show), it is likely because of something else, not because she is a Targaryen. Targaryens can be burned.

2. Daenerys has three dragons. She's not going to let Aegon take two wives -- she'll be taking two husbands.

[lojzelote]

Yes, not bad, it could certainly be convincing, and the rotting process would be hard to simulate. However I would be wondering how basic natural fabric could resist rotting enough to be recognizable after fifteen years in the earth.

Natural mummification? The crypts were described as unnaturally cold.

Besides, silk and velvet aren't human flesh. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than 18 years to fully decompose. If the Lannister and Stark wedding cloaks are anything to go by, it is also decorated by gems. Also, Cersei notes that the cloak Joffrey (or was it Tommen?) will give Margaery was already used by her lord father when he wrapped it around her lady mother. It didn't decompose either. :dunno:

Not really a good argument: if GRRM needs to make pigs fly, he would find a way too.

Well, yes, it's a work of fiction. Author does what he wants. One could argue he can't do it without stretching credibility, but I think it would a bold thing to say. I trust GRRM: if he wants to do it, he will do it in a convincing way, if he doesn't want to do it, he won't to do it. I'm sure he thought it through.

Magic could be useful that way. Dany would not necessarily trust anything though.

It was half a joke. I don't think that Dany would neccessarilly have problems with believing it, though. At least how things stand now, she appears to trust Quaithe's sort-of-prophecies without any guarantee she doesn't lie, and for now it seems she doesn't.

[Braavosi Sealady]

There's another Targaryen out there somewhere and it's not Jon Snow. He burned his hand when he killed the wight and it has yet to heal completely....strike one. He hair is black....strike two. He's a skin changer....strike three.

1. The burned hand means nothing. Alot of Targaryens died with fire (Summerhall) and even Dany burnes her hand (ADwD). Targs are not immune to fire.

2. He has Dark hair as the Starks, could be because of Lyanna's. Actually Targs features seem to disappear when a Targ mixes their blood with a non targ: Rhaegar's daugther Rhaenys had dark hair as Elia (dornish features), Princess Rhaelle's descendents all have black hair (Baratheon features)...

3. He's a skin changer and that seems to be related to northern/Stark blood, again could be because his wolf mother.

My guess is that it's a female. If Aegon was spared is it not safe to assume that Rhaenys was as well? Why save one but not the other? So the question is who?

GRRM never confirmed Aegon's death and now we know why :P But he did confirmed little Rhaenys death...

[lojzelote]

I always thought that dream was foreshadowing an eventual forced marriage to Euron, who has blue lips from drinking shade of the evening.

Dany being violated by Euron? :ack: Gosh, I hope she has more sense than be with him voluntarily. Either way, I'm going to have nightmares tonight . . .

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany being violated by Euron? :ack: Gosh, I hope she has more sense than be with him voluntarily. Either way, I'm going to have nightmares tonight . . .

I think she'll be forced into marrying him -- hence why she is definitely not enjoying the sex! I really, really, really hope I'm wrong.

[Batman]

Dany would probably go for it, the sick freak. Jon on the other hand has not been brought up with the proud family fucking tradition like the Targaryens

[Fire Eater]

Yes, I do, it's the nature of feudality, not to mention he was perfectly aware of his father's madness, and also knew Brandon.

Where is it stated that Rhaegar knew Brandon? Rhaegar is described as exceedingly intelligent, and probably wouldn't have eloped with Lyanna if he knew what would happen.

The point is don't be too hard on Rhaegar, we don't really know what was going on in his head, and we don't know all the details, until all the details are revealed let's try not to be too harsh.

On another note, if Jon is Azor Ahai than he would be regarded as an international hero, and king if his heritage is revealed by Howland Reed and/or Wylla combined with him managing to mount one of Dany's dragons.

It is kind of like the tale of King Arthur with the sword in the stone, only the true king (the closest living relative of King Uther Pendragon) could pull it from the stone, and Arthur pulling it from the stone proved his heritage. If Jon manages to mount a dragon, or wield what Xaro called a "flaming sword above the world" it would prove he has the blood of the dragon, something the Starks don't have nor anyone in Dorne except for the Martells who never came into contact with Ned, and proclaim his Targaryen heritage.

[Currawong]

This is an argument I've had dozens of times. Pursuing a claim does not equate to an abandonment of duty. His primary duty is to protect the realm. So if he sees taking a seat of nobility as the best way to protect the realm, why would he refuse it and let everybody die? Do you really think he's so attached to his vows that he would refuse to save the realm because he thinks taking lands would be dishonorable

Ah, yes, the nobility and public appreciation of breaking one's vows for the sake of the realm. Especially from one raised as a 'noble' Stark. How wonderfully ironic. "So many vows ... they make you swear and swear. ... No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." Now where have I heard that before?

I don't think Jon and Dany will marry, for many of the reasons already stated, not least of which is that it's so much a 'hidden prince marries exiled princess' cliche. Whatever the truth of Jon's birth and bloodline (and the complexities of family relationships if the R + L = J theory is true), I just can't see Jon or Dany viewing each other as anything but rivals. Nor can I see Jon just handing over the kingdoms (or whatever parts of them he might control) to the Targs, given previous history and especially the rebellion against mad Aerys. Would the people of Westeros (or more correctly, the nobles) actually want another Targ dynasty?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Please, for the love of Pepsi-drinking baby Jesus, no.